Ketogenic Diet - Carbs before workout before refeed

[SCNY]

In the example below, it states one should eat 50-75 grams of carbohydrates before their last workout before Refeeding - in order to trigger your body to once again burn glucose for fuel. In that event, would the body not burn those 50-75 carbohydrates to fuel the workout - leaving any remaining glycogen in the muscles (which is something we don't want)?

The reason I ask is because I've seen this suggestion before - but have also seen suggestions against it. I'd like to get more opinions.

Thank you!

Originally Posted by btinc

For the sake of argument lets say you are going to do a 24 hour refeed on Saturday, and you have low carb Monday thru Friday and did your normal workouts and you get to saturday refeed day. First thing is before the work out you need to get 50-75 grams of carbs to break any cycle of ketosis you may be in. This will put the body in the mode of burning glucose for fuel instead of fat. Then you will go into your workout, this workout will cause you to deplete all remaining glucose in the muscle and liver.

[amiga74]

it has to do with the liver. its like the only way for the body to burn off the remaining glucose in the muscle. the best place to find the explanation is from Btinc or in Lyle's book.

[SCNY]

Thank you for the reply.. It just occurs to me that you'd rather have fat being used for energy during that final workout before the refeed. Then after the workout, the carbohydrates used for the refeed would not be burned as fuel and then get pushed directly to the muscle. Of course, over time, the body begins considering the use of carbohydrates again for fuel - but at that point, you end carbohydrate intake and continue to burn fat for fuel.

In other words.. If you're burning carbohydrates for energy sooner than later, than you're not going to be able to refeed your muscles with glycogen since it's being used for energy sooner.

I'm probably over-complicating all of this but I'm hoping for a good conversation / debate because I'd really like to be confident one way or another.

Thanks again...

[amiga74]

its 25-50g carbs not more than that.

Lyle McDonald, The Ketogenic Diet, pg 139:

Reversing the liver’s metabolic state
To optimize any anabolic processes following the training session immediately prior to the carb-up, it is necessary to start before the workout itself. Changing the metabolism of the liver from catabolic to anabolic requires two things: that the enzyme levels for glucose utilization are returned to normal and that liver glycogen is refilled.
During long-term carbohydrate restriction, the liver enzymes responsible for metabolizing carbohydrate decrease as discussed in chapter 7. During refeeding, it takes approximately 5 hours for liver enzymes to return to normal levels (35). Therefore, the start of the carb-up should begin 5 hours prior to the final workout. It is unclear whether glucose, fructose, or some combination of foods is ideal at the time. A good place to begin experimenting might be with 25 to 50 grams of total carbohydrate and 25 grams of protein. Dieter’s may wish to add a small amount of unsaturated fats to this meal, to avoid an insulin spike.
Refilling of liver glycogen will shut down ketone body formation and shift the liver back towards anabolism. For reasons discussed in Chapter 10 (the TKD), dietary glucose is not used efficiently to resynthesize liver glycogen (36). Although no data on humans exists, due to difficulty in performing the studies, the effect of various nutrients on liver glycogen metabolism has been studied in rat livers which were removed from the animal (37).
This study found that glucose by itself refilled liver glycogen poorly, as expected. However, the combination of glucose and fructose was much more effective. The highest level of liver glycogen was found when glucose, fructose and glutamine (discussed in detail in chapter 33) were provided. It took approximately 2 hours to reverse liver metabolism (37). Therefore, 2 hours prior to the final carb-up, a combination of glucose and fructose (such as fruit) should be consumed. Individuals may wish to add glutamine as well to see if it has an added effect. It should be noted that some individuals find it more difficult to reestablish ketosis during the next weekly cycle if they use glutamine during the carb-load.

[SCNY]

Yeah, this is why I'm so confused.. In the Anabolic Diet book, it says the following:

One word of caution, don't take any carbs prior to working out. That's because carbs at this time will decrease GH and IGF-1 production and in effect, increase insulin and decrease the use of bodyfat as the primary energy source during training.

So you can see why I'm at a crossroad here!

[amiga74]

in the grand scheme of things, i personally don't believe it matters that much.

[SCNY]

Originally Posted by amiga74

in the grand scheme of things, i personally don't believe it matters that much.

I do get the feeling you're right..

[amiga74]

you could test it out, then you'd know what works for you best

[SCNY]

Originally Posted by amiga74

you could test it out, then you'd know what works for you best

Yeah, I know.. I just hate messing up.. I hate moving backwards.. I was hoping there'd be some clear cut evidence that one way works better than the other. I will have to be a guinea pig...

[amiga74]

i really trust Lyle. and Btinc. Btinc recommended having some carbs prior to the depletion workout. So that'd be my vote!