Fat loss with ketogenic: cyclical & targeted ketogenic w/weight training

[amiga74]

hi!
this is a thread for folks doing a ketogenic diet, and usually one that involves carb intake surrounding workouts or in the form of a refeed every week or 10-12 days.

The basics of a ketogenic diet are: protein/minimal carbs/fats.
A rough guide is:
30-35% protein
55-60% fat
5-8% carbs

*Protein is set at over 100 grams per day to prevent muscle breakdown.
*Keto can be done with minimal fat but fat helps prevent the body's metabolism from slowing down.

How to set up the diet:

1) Determine calorie intake. Multiply bodyweight by 12
2) Set protein intake (150 grams)
3) Set carbohydrate intake
4) Set fat intake

Example: 150 lb sedentary female
1)150x12 cal/lb =1800 calories per day
2)Protein: 150 grams. Protein has 4 cals p/gram so 150g=600 cals
3)30 or less: Carbs have 4 cal/gram, so, 30*4=120 cals
4)1800-600-120=1080 calories from fat, which has 9 cals p/gram
1080/9 = 120 grams of fat per day

By eating less than 100 grams of carbs per day your body will be in ketosis.

Follow this for at least 6 days. Then do depletion workout and then have your refeed, then get back on the diet.
Many people go 10 days for the first stretch before any type of refeed, to get used to the diet.

The beauty of keto is that the calories are not too low and that you lose fat, not muscle. You are able to maintain your workouts.

[janamonkey]

Thanks for starting this thread

[amiga74]

Hi Janaki!
check your mail!

[btinc]

Thank you Amiga.

[jayed]

Hey Amiga,

I don't know if you remember me from early on in the PSMF thread or not but I've been lurking there the past few days. PSMF was just too hard for me and had me getting kind of obsessive again. I have been doing a general low carb plan the past month or so and not really getting anywhere. I've been really intrigued by the success you've had going this route. Thanks for starting this thread.

I typically alternate between doing three full body weight workouts per week and doing some type of split. I also run about 20-25 miles per week.

Thanks for outlining the basics. It's really helpful.

[btinc]

Practical steps to the ketogenic diet.
1.Replace the carbs you’re eating now with protein and fat –don’t drop your calorie level right at the start.

2.For the first cycle, stick to the low carb phase for a full 12 days before beginning the high carb phase.

3.Refeed 12-48 hours, do not stuff yourself at one meal, spread your carb intake out of the allotted time frame.

4.Once your fat adapted (usually after the first two weeks, change the calorie level depending on the training phase your in, i.e. mass, strength or cutting phase.

Phase 1
A 12 Day Low Carbohydrate, High Fat, High Protein Diet. 35-50 percent protein, 50-65 percent fat, keep carbs at 30 grams or less per day.


Phase 2
A 12-48 Hours High Carb, Lower Fat Diet. No restrictions on carbs, do not stuff yourself and stop the carb intake at the point of bloating. Start with no more than a 24 hour refeed.

Phase 3
Return to to Phase 1 and refeed every 5-7 days.

Short and Long-Term refeed

On Weekends•
Depending on your response might want to refeed on low glycemic carbs for 48 hours, or perhaps only 12 hours using high glycemic carbs. Or anything in between.

Acceptable Foods

All Fish: Tuna, Salmon, Sole, Trout, Flounder, Sardines, Herring, Anchovies
All Meat: Beef, Pork, Lamb, Veal, Venison, Ham, Bacon
All Fowl: Chicken, Turkey, Duck, Goose, Cornish Hen, Quail, Pheasant
All Shellfish: Oysters, Crab meat, Shrimp, Lobster, Clams, Squid, Mussels
All Eggs: Scrambled, Fried, Poached, Deviled, Hard-boiled, Soft-boiled, Omelets

Processed meats, such as ham, bacon, pepperoni, salami, hot dogs and other luncheon meats may have added sugar and will contribute carbs. Try to avoid meat and fish products cured with nitrates.

Cheeses: Cheddar, Cream Cheese, Swiss, Mozzarella, Gouda, Goat, Blue Cheeses
Low-Carb Vegetables: Peppers, Mushrooms, Celery, Cucumber, Lettuce, Romaine Lettuce, Radishes, Bok Choy, Parsley
Low-Moderate Carb Vegetables: Artichoke, Asparagus, Snow Peas, Spinach, Broccoli, Spaghetti Squash, Eggplant, Brussel Sprouts, Tomato, Cabbage, Turnips, Onion, Zucchini, Cauliflower
Salad Garnishes: Grated Cheese, Sour Cream, Hard-Boiled Egg, Mushrooms, Bacon, Oil, Vinegar, Full-Fat Salad Dressing
Herbs & Spices: All Spices, Garlic, Basil, Pepper, Dill, Thyme, Oregano, Ginger, Rosemary, Sage
Fats & Oils: Olive Oil, Vegetable Oil, Canola Oil, Walnut Oil, Soybean Oil, Grape seed Oil, Sesame Oil, Sunflower Oil, Safflower Oil, Butter
Beverages: Filtered, Mineral, Spring, Tap Water, Club Soda, Heavy Cream, Decaf Coffee, Decaf Tea, Herb Tea, Lemon Juice, Crystal Light.


Avoid Sugar: Instead, use artificial sweeteners.

Avoid The Following: Bread, Pasta, Grains, Fruit, Starchy vegetables or Dairy products other than cheese, cream, or butter. Do not eat Margarine or any other foods with hydrogenated oils (trans-fats).

*Do not eat nuts or seeds in large amounts, as they often have too much carbohydrates.

Avoid "Low-Fat": Foods that claim to be "reduced-calorie" or "low-fat" are often packed with sugar.


Experiment•

The Ketogenic Diet is all about adjusting the diet to suit your metabolism.

•As such, experimenting to see what works best for you is the cornerstone of the Ketogenic Diet.

[btinc]

Exercise and the ketogenic diet

As with any fat-loss program, exercise will improve the success of the ketogenic diet.

Dieting without exercise

The most common approach to fat loss for most people is to simply restrict calories
without exercise. The biggest problem with weight loss by caloric restriction alone is an
inevitable loss in lean body mass (LBM), with a large part of the LBM drop from muscle stores,
and a drop in metabolic rate. The more that calories are restricted, the more the body lowers
metabolic rate to compensate. This reflects the body going into starvation mode to prevent
further weight loss. Depending on the amount of caloric restriction, the addition of exercise may
or may not have benefits in alleviating or preventing this drop in metabolic rate.
When food intake invariably increases again, the lowered metabolic rate makes the change
of fat regain very likely. As many individuals have found out, dieting by itself is not effective for
long term weight loss. In fact a recent analysis of studies shows that weight maintenance is
much better when individuals include exercise as part of their weight loss efforts than when it is
not.

Leptin

You probably know that leptin is a hormone, and you may even have heard it referred to as the "anti-starvation" hormone, but let's dig a little deeper. Leptin (derived from the Greek word leptos, meaning thin) was discovered just over 10 years ago by Jeffrey M. Friedman and his team of researchers at Rockefeller University. A 167-amino acid protein-based hormone, leptin is secreted by adipose tissue (fat cells) and communicates one's nutritional status to the body through its associated receptors.

The bulk of leptin receptors are located in the body's "feeding center" within the hypothalamus of the brain, but there are also receptors elsewhere throughout the body, such as in hepatic (liver) and skeletal muscle cells.

Leptin levels are mediated by two things. One is your level of body fat. (1 - 7, 11, 14, 17, 19, 23, 24, 27, 28, 33, 37, 44, 55, 65 - 67, 69) All else being equal, people with higher levels of body fat will have higher leptin levels than those with lower levels of body fat and vice versa. Because leptin is secreted by fat cells, it makes sense that under normal conditions there is a direct correlation between leptin levels and the amount of fat one is carrying

Unfortunately, when you're attempting to lose fat and begin to restrict calories, conditions are anything but "normal," and the body responds accordingly by lowering leptin levels. This is because the second mediator of serum leptin is your calorie intake. Lower your calorie intake and leptin will fall, independent of body fat. (26, 44, 55, 56, 58, 59, 65 - 67)

So what happens when leptin levels fall and why the heck does it matter? Again, under normal conditions leptin levels are normal and because there's plenty of binding occurring to the receptors of the hypothalamus, the brain gets the signal loud and clear that nutrition intake is adequate. Metabolism is high and the internal environment of the body is one very conducive to fat burning.


Until you start dieting.

When you go on a diet, leptin levels quickly plummet (by 50%+ after only one week [1, 59]), sending a signal to the body that you're semi-starved and not consuming enough calories. This puts the breaks on metabolism and creates a hormonal environment extremely conducive to fat storage. Thyroid hormones respond by taking a dive and the abdominal fat-storing stress hormone cortisol skyrockets measurably. And if that wasn't bad enough, the appetite-stimulating hormones ghrelin, neuropeptide-Y, and anandamide all hop on board to make your life even more miserable.

Despite having a pretty good reason for its reaction, it's pretty ironic that our bodies are primed for fat loss at every other time exceptwhen we're trying to lose fat. Wouldn't it be great if we could maintain high leptin levels and a body primed for fat burning while dieting? It would seemingly solve all of our problems. In order to do this, though, we'd somehow have to keep leptin levels high as we attempt to lose those extra pounds

So Can't We Just Take Some Leptin or Something?

Well, technically you can, but there are a couple of problems. First, recall that leptin is a protein based hormone, so that rules out a leptin pill and oral administration. This leaves the method of exogenous leptin administration to injection. And leptin injections do indeed work, reversing the metabolic adaptations to dieting and "starvation" even while continuing to restrict calories.

- In 1996, Ahima et al. used exogenous leptin to reverse starvation-induced neuroendrocrine adaptations in mice. (35)



Before regular leptin injections, this mouse thought he had to stay hungry.

"Well, that's nice and all," you're probably saying, "but I'm not a mouse, I'm a human!" Fair enough. Research with rodents doesn't always correlate to similar findings in humans, however:

• In 1999, Heymsfield et al. performed a double-blind placebo controlled study analyzing weight loss over a 24-week period in 73 obese humans. Subjects either injected daily with leptin or a placebo. At the end of the 24-week period, the leptin group lost significantly more weight than the placebo group and a higher percentage of fat vs. lean body mass. (70)

• In 2002, Rosenbaum et al. administered low-dose leptin to subjects (male and female) who had dieted to a 10% decrease in body weight. During the diet period, thyroid hormone levels (T3 and T4), 24-hr energy expenditure, and other metabolic markers substantially decreased. The result of the exogenous leptin replacement therapy? "All of these endocrine changes were reversed..." Thyroid output and daily calorie burn increased back to pre-diet levels. (8)

• In 2003, Fogteloo et al. showed that exogenous leptin injections "tended to reduce the decline of energy expenditure associated with energy restriction, whereas the tendency of energy intake to increase back to baseline levels in placebo-treated subjects was largely prevented in subjects treated with leptin." In other words, not only did the leptin group experience less of a decline in energy expenditure, but they were also less hungry, allowing them to more easily adhere to the prescribed dietary regimen. (60)

• In 2004, Welt et al. reported that leptin administered to women with secondary hypothalamic amenorrhea due to reduced fat mass reversed the decline in hypothalamic-pituitary-gonadal axis function and raised circulating concentrations of both T3 and T4. (71)

• In 2005, Rosenbaum and company were at it again, showing that energy expenditure, skeletal muscle work efficiency, sympathetic nervous system tone, and circulating concentrations of T3 and T4 returned to pre-weight-loss levels with exogenous leptin. (84)

So, as theorized, keeping leptin levels high during a diet does indeed solve our dilemma by avoiding the negative metabolic (and perhaps behavioral) adaptations that calorie restriction perpetuates. The problem? Daily leptin injections are far too expensive, costing thousands and thousands of dollars per week. So, we can pretty much forget about exogenous leptin as a solution (which is probably moot anyway considering that not too many people are going to voluntarily plunge a needle into their skin daily).

Now that we know that exogenous leptin isn't going to save us, let's talk about the possibility of manipulating endogenous leptin levels (your body's natural production of leptin). And the good news is, this indeed can be done, and without involving needles or thousands of dollars. And even better, it's achievable with the help of two things you're sure to enjoy: more calories and more carbs.

We know that leptin levels decrease by about 50% after only one week of energy restriction, but fortunately, it doesn't take nearly that long for leptin to bump back up with a substantial increase in caloric intake. In fact, research has shown that it only takes about 12-24 hours. (27, 55, 61) So, the answer to the fat loss catch-22 lies within strategic dietary cheating.

By strategically cheating with high calorie foods (and yes, even stuff like pizza, ice cream, wings, cookies, burgers, fries, etc.), you can give leptin and metabolism a major boost mid-diet which sets you up for plenty of subsequent fat loss when you resume your reduced calorie eating regimen. This means greater net fat loss week after week, and ultimately, a much more realistic, maintainable way to bring you to your leanest condition.

So what's so special about carbs? Well, leptin, carbohydrate, and insulin have been shown to have very strong ties. (3, 11, 58, 16, 18, 23, 32, 56, 62, 68) Calories alone don't get the job done, as research shows that overfeeding on protein and fat has little effect on leptin. (11, 15, 32, 68)

In order to get a strong leptin response from overfeeding, there needs to be plenty of carbs in the mix. In fact, the relationship is so strong that research conducted by Boden et al. at the Temple University School of Medicine shows that leptin levels will not fall even in response to all-out fasting so long as insulin and glucose are intravenously maintained. (16) Pretty interesting stuff!

Because of this carbohydrate-insulin-leptin relationship, it makes sense that foods combining both carbs and fat (like those mentioned above) work best for reversing the adaptations caused by calorie restriction because of the synergistic insulin response they produce. But even more importantly, this relationship gives us an indicator of just how important and useful carbohydrates are on "diet" days.

So if high leptin levels really jack up metabolism and fat burning, why are obese people with the highest leptin levels still so fat?

The most obvious reason is because these people don't spend any time in a caloric deficit, so fat loss isn't going to happen even when leptin is high. Still, it is, or at least it can be a little more complex than that simple explanation, so let's take a look.

When leptin was initially discovered, it was hypothesized that obesity was the result of some sort of genetic leptin deficiency in overweight individuals. After all, a genetic disorder in which very little or no leptin is being produced would cause the body to think it's literally always in a state of starvation, resulting in permanently slowed metabolism and increased fat storage (pretty much the ideal recipe for obesity). So, it made sense.

Unfortunately, when they actually moved forward and analyzed blood samples of obese subjects, instead of the theorized shortage of leptin, there was leptin galore, baby. Welcome to the world of leptin resistance. Just like with a type II diabetic (not type I, as theorized) whose insulin feedback system is no longer functioning properly, leptin receptors become desensitized over time as a result of long-term poor dietary habits and high levels of body fat. While overweight individuals do indeed have high levels of circulating leptin because of the high amount of body fat they possess, these high levels don't mean much when they're not able to communicate effectively with the hormone's receptors.

I've seen studies that show a decrease in serum leptin as a result of exercise. What gives?

Exercise has been shown to increase leptin sensitivity, (72-83) which will in turn decrease the amount of leptin that is needed to send the "fed" signal to the brain. So, decreased baseline levels of leptin are actually a positive adaptation in this instance

Isn't cheating on my diet just going to cause tons of water retention and weight gain? I'm not trying to negate all of my weekly progress.

A large increase in calorie intake after spending days in even a moderately calorie restricted state will always result in water retention and weight gain.

When you take a look at net weight loss from week to week, however, you will see that weight and body fat will consistently decline, and that you're consistently looking leaner and leaner.

Daily measurements mean nothing, and it's very counterproductive psychologically to measure immediately after a Cheat Day. Don't do it. Keep track of weekly measurements and as long as they're decreasing (and they should

[btinc]

Weight Training

Resistance training alone, combined with a slight calorie restriction causes greater bodyfat
loss and a maintenance/increase in lean body mass than just restricting calories alone .
Essentially, the caloric deficit causes the fat loss and the weight training signals the body to keep
the muscle so that only fat is lost. This is an important consideration. From a calorie burning
perspective, aerobic exercise and caloric restriction are essentially identical.
Aerobic training alone, while increasing fat loss in some studies, does not generally increase
muscle except in very inactive individuals . Remember that adding muscle raises metabolic
rate in the long term. Any caloric restriction should be accompanied by resistance training to
prevent the loss of LBM and possibly to even increase it.
Aerobic exercise can increase fat loss and may be added if desired and if time allows.
However, too much aerobic exercise can have the same effect as too few calories: lowering
metabolic rate and slowing fat loss. A total caloric deficit of more than 1000 cal/day seems to be
the threshold for slowing the metabolism

A 3 way split gives you plenty of recovery time and is a good way to split your routine. You always have at least one days rest before your next workout. Fit in any cardio you want to do on the off days and fit in abs once or twice a week as suits.

Absolute beginner (Do 8-12 reps per set. Leave squats, deadlifts, barbell rows, etc.. until you have a couple of months training under your belt.)

Monday Legs/shoulders

Leg press (3 sets)
Leg extension (2 sets)
Leg curl (3 sets)
Standing calf raise (3 sets)
Seated dumbell press (3 sets)
Side laterals (2 sets)

Wednesday Back/biceps

Wide grip pulldowns (3 sets)
Seated rows (2 sets)
Hyperextensions (3 sets)
Shrugs (3 sets)
Barbell curls (3 sets)
Hammer curls (2 sets)

Friday Chest/triceps/forearms

Bench press (3 sets)
Incline dumbell press (3 sets)
Pushdowns (3 sets)
Overhead dumbell extension (2 sets)
Wrist curls (2 sets)
Reverse wrist curls

Intermediate

Monday Legs

Squats (3 sets)
Leg press (3 sets)
Leg extension (2 sets)
Leg curl (3 sets)
Stiff leg deadlift (2 sets)
Standing calf raise (3 sets)
Seated calf raise (2 sets)

Wednesday Back/biceps

Deadlift (3 sets)
Pullups (3 sets)
Barbell row (3 sets)
Dumbell row (2 sets)
Shrugs (3 sets)
Barbell curl (3 sets)
Dumbell incline curl (3 sets)
Hammer curl (2 sets)

Friday Chest/shoulders/triceps

Bench press (3 sets)
Incline dumbell press (3 sets)
Dips (2 sets)
Military press (3 sets)
Side laterals (2sets)
Rear laterals (2 sets)
Lying tricep extension
Close grip bench press (3 sets)

[btinc]

Depletion Workout

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The depletion workout is a very important part of making the ketogenic diet work. The idea is depleting all the remaining glucose from the body so you can saturate the muscles during your refeed process.

For the sake of argument lets say you are going to do a 24 hour refeed on Saturday, and you have low carb Monday thru Friday and did your normal workouts and you get to saturday refeed day. First thing is before the work out you need to get 50-75 grams of carbs to break any cycle of ketosis you may be in. This will put the body in the mode of burning glucose for fuel instead of fat. Then you will go into your workout, this workout will cause you to deplete all remaining glucose in the muscle and liver.

To do this you need to have a good resistance workout, it is a proven fact that when you exert force by moving weighted objects you will deplete all remaining glucose. You can do this by doing circuit training or just your regular weight training workout. The normal thought is circuit training and upping your volume and cutting the amount of weight you lift in half. I have found that you can do which ever one you like, just make sure when the work out is over you have put in a minimum of 15 quality sets with repetitions in 8-12 range at a faster than normal pace.

Once your workouts are over you can now start your refeed, and here is the beauty once the last of the glucose is depleted your body goes back in to a fat burning mode and using fat for energy. Now you start to eat carbs that will saturate the muscle and liver with glucose. During this process the body is trying to get as much in the muscle as possible that it continues to rely on fat for energy. Now that you have started the refeed you have raised the leptin hormone and the body metabolism is racing high and you go back to low carb and the body continues to release body fat.
The depletion workout can be done with HITT cardio, but a resistance workout has been proven to be the best at clearing glucose.

I have also found that some kind of workout the day after the refeed very beneficial at starting the fat burning process
__________________

[amiga74]

Originally Posted by jayed

Hey Amiga,

I don't know if you remember me from early on in the PSMF thread or not but I've been lurking there the past few days. PSMF was just too hard for me and had me getting kind of obsessive again. I have been doing a general low carb plan the past month or so and not really getting anywhere. I've been really intrigued by the success you've had going this route. Thanks for starting this thread.

I typically alternate between doing three full body weight workouts per week and doing some type of split. I also run about 20-25 miles per week.

Thanks for outlining the basics. It's really helpful.

Hey Jayed!
Yes, of course i remember you! How's it going? I agree with you about PSMF-and likewise, i got kinda obsessed, and felt burnt out too.

Like you, i like to run, and i am working on being consistent with weight training 3x a week full body.

For me, the keto plan works well because the calorie deficit isnt as great, i have achieved fat loss, and i dont feel deprived.

There seems to be evidence that women who do VLCD and do a ton of cardio don't lose, and that the best way to get long term loss is with again, a minimal deficit. the other option is you dont exercise, but for me that is not an option.

Oh yeah, sorry to go on and on, but, following PSMF i did some diet breaks and i gained back the weight i had lost rapidly. So for me, the adjustment was too difficult, too.

Anyways, feel free to join in!
amiga

[amiga74]

Thanks Btinc for posting all this great information! It is really helpful!

[amiga74]

The difference between targeted and cyclical is that: on a targeted plan, you have carbs around your workouts. On the cyclical plan, you have carbs every 7-12 days in the form of a refeed.

alright. so this is what i am doing and eating and my stats.

Yesterday was my first day. I weighed in at the gym at 145. I've been stressed out with a ton of writing and deadlines and eating poorly and finally got the cajones to get back on track.

BW X12 =145X12=1,740
Protein: 150 grams (600)
Carbs: 30 (120)
Fats: 1740-600-120=1,020/9=113 grams of fat

Yesterday i did a full body workout and ran 3.5 miles followed by 10 on the stairmaster.

My totals for the day: 1,510 cals, 130g protein 28carbs and 98fat
34% protein, 58%fat 7%carbs

obviously i'm still tweaking to get to the suggested ratios, but i am close!

[btinc]

Remember folks this program is not for the non exercising individual.

[jjcanada]

Thanks btinc and amiga for setting this up!
Our very own thread- AWESOME!!

What I am doing is very similar to what you've set up amiga!
The last 10 days I've been on track with about 60-65% fat, 30-35% protein and 5% carbs- I've been trying to keep my total calories up around 1600.

Today I was a little overboard on protein (my fitday said 45% protein and 50%fat)
but I don't think that should be a big deal for one day.

I'm already feeling leaner and lighter! (even though the scale isn't changing) and I feel great overall!!

If I can figure out how to post pictures I'll post up my "nows" (hopefully to become "befores")

[janamonkey]

Originally Posted by amiga74

Hi Janaki!
check your mail!

thanks so much! I'll be up all night reading

[14all41]

Thank you Amiga for starting the thread.
I am starting on keto and establishing a weight training program.
Btinc and Amiga, you both have put very informative post especially for novice like me.
I am rearing and trying to find the best weight to implement the guidelines in my routine.
I have a few ?s if you don't mind:
At weight 200 # I want to lose weight as well as fat.
I would like to be a LEAN 150 #s.
I calculated my ratios to be as follows:
2400 calories total
protein 150 gr x 4 = 600 cals
carbohydrates 20 x 4 = 80 cals
I have 1720 cal from fat which is 191 gr of fat.
My ? is do I set my calories on present weight or I calculate based on desired body weight?
Like 150# x 12=1800 calories per day and work the ratios based on that.
I am very new to any type of exercise. I have started a program where I do weight training 3 x a week
Day 1 arms & shoulders & abs
Day 2 chest & back & abs
Day 3 legs & gluts & abs
It takes me about an hour to do my routines at 3 sets 12 reps each.
My ? is it better to drop this routine and start doing total body work out 3x per week.
My goals are to change the composition of my body AND lose fat and weight at the same time.
So what would be the best approach for me?
Thank you in advance for all the help.
Since I do not have the PM turned on I do not know how to do it I created an e-mail address just for the purpose to get e-mails and helpfull info from everybody. You all seem way more knowledgeable and experienced.

This is my e-mail address:
notfat_nomore@yahoo.com

Btinc, do you think it is possible to lose fat and lose weight and build muscle at the same time? The folowing part of your post I do not understand :"4.Once your fat adapted (usually after the first two weeks, change the calorie level depending on the training phase you are in, i.e. mass, strength or cutting phase."
Thank you
Nina

[elizabeth3860]

Hello Keto Thread!

[btinc]

Originally Posted by 14all41

My ? is do I set my calories on present weight or I calculate based on desired body weight?Nina

Set your calories by your current weight, this will change slightly with your weekly weight in. You can start at 12 times your body weight and go down to as low as 9 times your body weight and the rest of your deficit will come from exercise. However start as high and you can to keep your metabolism running strong. The goal is to lose fat on the highest amount of calories possible.

Originally Posted by 14all41

I am very new to any type of exercise. I have started a program where I do weight training 3 x a week
Day 1 arms & shoulders & abs
Day 2 chest & back & abs
Day 3 legs & gluts & abs
It takes me about an hour to do my routines at 3 sets 12 reps each.
My ? is it better to drop this routine and start doing total body work out 3x per week.Nina

That routine is fine, it will all depend on the time you have to work out. Ab work needs only be done 2 times a week. You will need to time a workout so that you have a depletion workout the same day that you start a refeed.

Originally Posted by 14all41

Btinc, do you think it is possible to lose fat and lose weight and build muscle at the same time?

Yes it can be done, although anytime you are in a calorie deficit you will lose some LBM, but over all it can be done. All though if you are scale addicted, number changes will be slow but the your body composition will move. Amiga and Elizabeth can vouch for the fat lose and the maintaining and or building LBM, but with no real change in scale numbers.

Originally Posted by 14all41

The folowing part of your post I do not understand :"4.Once your fat adapted (usually after the first two weeks, change the calorie level depending on the training phase you are in, i.e. mass, strength or cutting phase."
Thank you Nina

This will be a transition for the body to go through, from using glucose as fuel to burning fat as fuel, and it will take some time for this to happen. Normally 5 days is enough but over time 12-20 days has been the number that has worked the best for the first time you embark on this program. Atfer that refeeds every 5-7 days. However that can be adjusted to fit your metabolism needs.
So after the first stage of low carb your body will be use to burning fat as fuel up to the first refeed then with the huge influx of carbs you have a big turn around at the hormonal level where although carbs are present the body will use them to fill the muscles while you still burn fat as fuel.
After the first low carb phase then you can go into a bigger calorie deficit or add calories to maintain or to gain weight. You should be able to lose a great amount of fat like the other 2 women and not really change your food intake amount.

[14all41]

Thank you Bting for all the info!
I will be doing a lot of adjusting my menu to come with the right #s.
I will keep you posted.
Have a good day!
Nina
P.S.When you look at carbs do you deduct fiber?
Thank you

[elizabeth3860]

yes you do deduct the fiber, b/c fiber will not impact ketosis.

also, if you are just starting weight training, it is possible to gain muscle and lose fat at the same time for the first 6 months or so. More so if you are using keto to do it. I found that keto had a muscle-sparing effect for me, in that I didn't lose any muscle, but went from 21.4% to 18.6 in the first 2 weeks or so.

[14all41]

Hi Elizabeth,

Thank you for answer.
Yes you do look great.I remember your pictures from the MPSF thread.
I am tired of being 200 #s big mama.
I really want to change the #s on the scale as well as on the measuring tape.
Today is my first official day on keto.
Still not sure how long I'll go before refeed.
Thanksgiving menu will not be an issue for most part.I am not decided yet weather to refeed on thanksgiving or go longer 10-12 days on the first stretch of keto.