Fat loss with ketogenic: cyclical & targeted ketogenic w/weight training

[jjcanada]

Originally Posted by btinc

JJ you have done some great work. You have replaced fat with lean body tissue, just because the scale does not say it does not mean it is not happening, as you have stated your clothes tell the whole story. I hope every one reads your story of less cardio and more food with good results instead of going the 400-800 calorie a day agony. Keep up the good work.

Thanks for the props! It has been going so well I don't want to stop. I saw my parents for the first time in about 10 weeks and they both commented, saying I looked really slim and fit, which was nice because they are (believe or not) unbiased- they call it as it is - unlike my roommates who always say everyone always looks great.

I'll do one last refeed tomorrow and then get back into ketosis and slowly work my way out of it by Christmas and enjoy a diet break for a week and a half. Does that sound OK? As much as I'm loving keto, I'm looking forward to the most amazing fresh mango margaritas I've heard this restaurant serves in Cabo San Lucas.

[southerngal]

So my refeed went well but as tends to happen the day after a refeed (and on Sundays) I had too many carbs yesterday . . . about 100 grams, mostly whole grains. I think the lesson for me is that I should do 48 hour refeeds of low glycemic carbs. I love oatmeal and other grains so I think that is the best policy. This weekend was not normal because I had several parties, which only happens this time of year.

I'm back on track today and do not plan to refeed until Xmas Eve. I do have a dessert party on Thursday so I'm not sure how I'll handle it, but it's too early for another refeed.

[btinc]

Originally Posted by southerngal

So my refeed went well but as tends to happen the day after a refeed (and on Sundays) I had too many carbs yesterday . . . about 100 grams, mostly whole grains. I think the lesson for me is that I should do 48 hour refeeds of low glycemic carbs. I love oatmeal and other grains so I think that is the best policy.

If you do a 48 hour refeed the low glycemic portion should be on day 2.

[southerngal]

Ok, that is kind of what I did. I started around 2pm on Friday and ended on Sunday. I had high glycemic foods the first day and lower ones the second day.

[southerngal]

Just wanted to say that I am bouncing back better than ever from my refeed. I'm already back to the weight I was at the beginning of the refeed (it used to take me a whole week to recover).

btinc suggested that I try cutting calories a little more, which I'm doing, but it's really hard, especially on workout days because I'm hungry. Could I maybe try increasing cardio? Or is that just counter-productive? Right now I am trying to do three weight training workouts a week (I used to only do two) and three cardio workouts.

[btinc]

Originally Posted by southerngal

Just wanted to say that I am bouncing back better than ever from my refeed. I'm already back to the weight I was at the beginning of the refeed (it used to take me a whole week to recover).

btinc suggested that I try cutting calories a little more, which I'm doing, but it's really hard, especially on workout days because I'm hungry. Could I maybe try increasing cardio? Or is that just counter-productive? Right now I am trying to do three weight training workouts a week (I used to only do two) and three cardio workouts.

Just cut calories on non workout days. Eat more on workout days.

I don't think you needed to cut any calories, however it was a way to get you to really look at what your eating, if you feel you have your diet part down pat, go back to 12 time your bodyweight in calories, 3 weight training sessions and 2 cardio sessions are fine, give your body a chance to recover.

[Missy's Journey]

BNTIC...

i've been looking into/ researching this for a while...with all the other cycling threads. Would you with your expertise really suggest this WOE for someone like me who has 100 pounds to lose? I'm not afraid of heavy lifting at all...and I love my Atkins WOE...I really don't want to do the free meal if it means M/E or Stillmans...I can't hack it.

I really respect your opinion on this. Almost everyone here is at goal or moderately above it...so i'm really curious as to what you think.

[btinc]

Originally Posted by Missy's Journey

BNTIC...

i've been looking into/ researching this for a while...with all the other cycling threads. Would you with your expertise really suggest this WOE for someone like me who has 100 pounds to lose? I'm not afraid of heavy lifting at all...and I love my Atkins WOE...I really don't want to do the free meal if it means M/E or Stillmans...I can't hack it.

I really respect your opinion on this. Almost everyone here is at goal or moderately above it...so i'm really curious as to what you think.

If your going to put in the work in, the lifting and cardio, i will always be a fan of keto. However i would suggest a modification to it. You like atkins which is fine, but i still would do a refeed meal or 2 every 14-21 days. The only problem with no refeeds is your metabolism comes to halt, but with exercise and a refeed once or twice a month you should be good.

If your happy with Atkins stick with, just when you notice a stall, enjoy a free meal or 2.

My suggestion, Atkins or Keto type with a refeed every 14-21 days.

[southerngal]

Originally Posted by btinc

Just cut calories on non workout days. Eat more on workout days.

I don't think you needed to cut any calories, however it was a way to get you to really look at what your eating, if you feel you have your diet part down pat, go back to 12 time your bodyweight in calories, 3 weight training sessions and 2 cardio sessions are fine, give your body a chance to recover.

Great, thanks again for all your wonderful advice. I think I could still work on reducing my carbs, which tend to be between 20 and 40 on most days, instead of below 20.

With the workouts I try to just listen to my body and if I'm super sore from lifting I may need two days off instead of one.

Quick question about the depletion workout the day before the holidays. I know you said in this thread that that was an option, especially as gyms are closed on the holidays. So I plan to refeed Xmas Eve and Xmas Day. I will do a depletion workout on the day before Xmas Eve. Do I still eat a small amount of carbs before that workout even though I'm not going immediately into a refeed?

[btinc]

Originally Posted by southerngal

So I plan to refeed Xmas Eve and Xmas Day. I will do a depletion workout on the day before Xmas Eve. Do I still eat a small amount of carbs before that workout even though I'm not going immediately into a refeed?

Yes

[Missy's Journey]

BTINC...thank you very much for responding...

I think I will start this next week....I'm scared to slow down my losses...but I don't want to hit stalls either. I think i'll do 21 days because I'm pretty sure it will take me close to 7 days to recover from a free meal or free 1/2 day...that's just the way my body is. Of course by getting that good workout in and enjoying the benefits of the pumped up muscles it might get the cycle back on track more quickly.

I'm on vacation for 11 days starting Saturday and I plan on focusing very hard on making this a habit before going back to work on the 2nd.

[btinc]

Originally Posted by Missy's Journey

BTINC...thank you very much for responding...

I think I will start this next week....I'm scared to slow down my losses...but I don't want to hit stalls either. I think i'll do 21 days because I'm pretty sure it will take me close to 7 days to recover from a free meal or free 1/2 day...that's just the way my body is. Of course by getting that good workout in and enjoying the benefits of the pumped up muscles it might get the cycle back on track more quickly.

I'm on vacation for 11 days starting Saturday and I plan on focusing very hard on making this a habit before going back to work on the 2nd.

All diets have the same concept and that is creating a calorie deficit, so anytime you create one you will lose weight. The question folks have to ask themselves is the quality of weight loss they want. Some plans allow you to lose very rapidly although it takes a lot of lean body tissue with it, which in the long run should not be what anyone wants, the more lean body tissue the better your metabolism will work. The ketogenic diet has been proven over and over to spare lean body tissue.

Pick something your comfortable with and just be consistent.

If your comfortable with 21 day free meal, or refeed that's great I would still incorporate a depletion workout before that free meal.

[Missy's Journey]

Originally Posted by btinc

If your comfortable with 21 day free meal, or refeed that's great I would still incorporate a depletion workout before that free meal.

Absolutely my plan. in fact, I plan to do it by the book as you have laid out with the exception that I won't refeed on the 7th day...only every 21st day.

[btinc]

Originally Posted by Missy's Journey

Absolutely my plan. in fact, I plan to do it by the book as you have laid out with the exception that I won't refeed on the 7th day...only every 21st day.

Ok, good luck. Keep a close track on your calorie intake to not let slip to low. For females there is a natural phenomenon that takes place when the calorie intake is to low. Weight loss stops. Women lose better at around 500 intake calories below maintenance and making a bigger gap with exercise.

[Missy's Journey]

I know.

my biggest "fear" right now.

12X240=2880calories I'm gagging already....

I feel full all the time being on keto now for 6 weeks and keep track of my food @ calorieking.com...it's hardly EVER over 1800 cals. I do need to be creative. I'm thinking protein shakes with some type of fat added...but that is one of my research points right now.

[btinc]

Originally Posted by Missy's Journey

I know.

my biggest "fear" right now.

12X240=2880calories I'm gagging already....

I feel full all the time being on keto now for 6 weeks and keep track of my food @ calorieking.com...it's hardly EVER over 1800 cals. I do need to be creative. I'm thinking protein shakes with some type of fat added...but that is one of my research points right now.

Just get as close as possible on workout days. Protein shakes with olive oil added is a great start.

[jjcanada]

Just checking in!

My diet break has started a bit early (went to Mexican tonight and had tortilla chips and a quesadilla!)... I'll keep it lower carb in the mornings and slowly up the carbs over the weekend. Xmas eve/xmas are a total write off but considering how well I've behave food wise so far this holiday season- I think I am just going to enjoy the festivities.

My plan for Mexico (only 5 days away!) = eat about 1800 calories a day. I think this is around my maitenence level. Somedays might be a bit more but I plan on running every morning and keeping relativly active (swimming, dancing etc.) through the week. Hopefully, I won't gain much, if at all.

Happy Holidays everyone!

Missy- the refeed helped me SO much pyschologically! this is the diet for me! It got me back my 25 inch waist!

[Missy's Journey]

Thanks JJ. I decided to just jump in rather than wait till Monday. So last night I did a 1 hour of lifting...full body. i'm so sore today i can hardly move but this does always happen. I was going to do a step class @ 9 this morning but i literally couldnt move my legs! So i lounged a bit and got up and stretched real good hit the gym and did 25 minutes HIIT on the treadmill (yuck) but it did kick my behind.

I'm so jealous of your Mexico trip. we usually try to go at least once a year but haven't made it this year...and next year we need passports which i've put off too long. it's only a 4 hour drive to the beaches we visit from my home...

[feather319]

Wow! I'm so glad I found this thread! I've been on the "anabolic diet" for about 12 days now but always end up cheating by going over calorie or carb wise. I started it because I've put on a steady 40 pounds since graduating college. Over the past few days on the anabolic diet, I have failed because I eat too many calories and/or go over 30 carbs (40-50) and usually yogurt gets me.

I'm finding that I am absolutely drained on this diet as well but I've heard that is typical in the beginning. It is getting better but I think a refeed day is coming. I just feel like everyday I have to start over because I eat too many calories. I'm close to 3000 calories everyday! And, I do bad because I chew gum and drink at least 1 diet soda a day. Is gum and soda bad? I drink tons of water but always drink 1-2 diet sodas in the afternoon - and it has aspertame.

I think I'll do the refeed days like Missy - every 21 days. I'm scared that I won't adapt very well refeeding every week since I have done moderately low carb for so long.

My workouts are usually weight training 3 times per week and cardio 6 times per week but after reading this thread I think I'm doing too much cardio. I tried cutting down cardio once before but found that I missed the energy high I got from it. But, at the same time, I'm finding that my lifting is suffering because I'll do cardio in the AM before going back to the gym in the PM to lift. Any advise? Should I cut cardio down to 3-4 times per week?

I look forward to this challenge and posting my progress. I haven't eaten carbs as high as a refeed in over 5 years so I am interested in what is going to happen to me. I just hope not to gain anymore weight back.

here is my fitday public journal. It shows my food and exercise over the last few weeks.
FitDay.com - Diet and Fitness journal for feather319

[feather319]

Oh, my public journal doesn't have fiber on it. That's strange. Just a note, I typically get around 25-30 grams a fiber a day doing this diet. I use to take in over 85 grams of fiber in a day but since I cut carbs down, I also cut fiber. Just wanted to make that note when you saw my carb amount.

[btinc]

Originally Posted by feather319

I'm close to 3000 calories everyday!

The diet soda is ok and the gum should be sugar free. If it is not sugar free it could be what is triggering your hunger.
Your calories should be around 2000-2200 per day.

Originally Posted by feather319

I think I'll do the refeed days like Missy - every 21 days. I'm scared that I won't adapt very well refeeding every week since I have done moderately low carb for so long.

You have a lot less weight to lose than Missy does and the closer you are to your goal weight the more the body will fight you. Your refeeds can be spaced out to every 12 days but no more than that.
Depending on how long you have been dieting a break from dieting and eating at maintenance levels is a good option.

Originally Posted by feather319

My workouts are usually weight training 3 times per week and cardio 6 times per week but after reading this thread I think I'm doing too much cardio. I tried cutting down cardio once before but found that I missed the energy high I got from it. But, at the same time, I'm finding that my lifting is suffering because I'll do cardio in the AM before going back to the gym in the PM to lift. Any advise? Should I cut cardio down to 3-4 times per week?]

Too much cardio, give your body a chance to recover, I would cut the cardio back to 3-4 days a week.

Originally Posted by feather319

I haven't eaten carbs as high as a refeed in over 5 years so I am interested in what is going to happen to me. I just hope not to gain anymore weight back.

Go to page one and read about the leptin hormone and get a understanding of why you eat the high carbs during a refeeds.

[feather319]

btinc,

Thanks you so much!!! I appreciate your comments.

Yes, my gum is sugar free. I just chew 2-3 packs a day and need to cut down. I think it is because I work a sedentary job. When I'm out an about I don't chew as much but I chew it to keep myself busy sitting all day doing analysis on the computer.

You are right about the 12 day thing. I did read about the leptin and refeeds. Maybe that is why I always think I'm hungry is because I haven't refed to keep the leptin levels up - even on a high calorie diet.

I will cut my cardio down. Today is leg day at the gym and maybe some light low intensity elliptical training tonight at home. Nothing to keep me huffin and puffin tonight but just to get my legs movin. Here is my new plan:

Cardio every other day alternating weights. Except one of those days I will put cardio and weight on the same day so that I can have one day off a week. that will put me at 4 days of cardio per week and 3 days of weights with one rest day.

Is this my correct understanding on how to do the refeed:
You eat light carbs such as an apple and some protein to fill up my liver glycogen stores in the morning. Next do a depletion workout to clear the liver glycogen stores. Then do a refeed that day to fill up the liver and muscle stores. After that I'll have enough energy when I go back to doing low carb do lift heavy weights the first and third day after the refeed. Then repeat.

My question is, how do you know when you are burning fat for fuel. After looking at my diet, are my carbs too high? I don't have ketones in my urine or smelly breath. I understand you don't have to be in ketosis to lose weight but in the last few weeks I've dropped no weight. Should I stick to the low carb plan for 7-12 more days doing lower calorie or do a refeed?

Also, how do you get past the tiredness in the gym in the beginning? I find my lifting workouts are suffering. I can usually squat 135 to parallel for 8 reps but last week I had a hard time doing 115. I could only get 11-12 reps. same for leg press. I usually do 295 but last week I barely could do 275 for 12 reps. I was sore for the whole week too!!! My cardio has really suffered this week as well. I couldn't get my heart rate up easily at all. When i did I felt like I was going to die. I am either sick or this diet is really affecting me. I think I'll get through this because I understand it is normal and I'm tough. Will I lose muscle since i'm not lifting as heavy?
sorry for all the questions. Thanks so much!

[btinc]

Originally Posted by feather319

btinc,

Thanks you so much!!! I appreciate your comments.

Yes, my gum is sugar free. I just chew 2-3 packs a day and need to cut down. I think it is because I work a sedentary job. When I'm out an about I don't chew as much but I chew it to keep myself busy sitting all day doing analysis on the computer.

You are right about the 12 day thing. I did read about the leptin and refeeds. Maybe that is why I always think I'm hungry is because I haven't refed to keep the leptin levels up - even on a high calorie diet.

I will cut my cardio down. Today is leg day at the gym and maybe some light low intensity elliptical training tonight at home. Nothing to keep me huffin and puffin tonight but just to get my legs movin. Here is my new plan:

Cardio every other day alternating weights. Except one of those days I will put cardio and weight on the same day so that I can have one day off a week. that will put me at 4 days of cardio per week and 3 days of weights with one rest day.

Is this my correct understanding on how to do the refeed:
You eat light carbs such as an apple and some protein to fill up my liver glycogen stores in the morning. Next do a depletion workout to clear the liver glycogen stores. Then do a refeed that day to fill up the liver and muscle stores. After that I'll have enough energy when I go back to doing low carb do lift heavy weights the first and third day after the refeed. Then repeat.

My question is, how do you know when you are burning fat for fuel. After looking at my diet, are my carbs too high? I don't have ketones in my urine or smelly breath. I understand you don't have to be in ketosis to lose weight but in the last few weeks I've dropped no weight. Should I stick to the low carb plan for 7-12 more days doing lower calorie or do a refeed?

Also, how do you get past the tiredness in the gym in the beginning? I find my lifting workouts are suffering. I can usually squat 135 to parallel for 8 reps but last week I had a hard time doing 115. I could only get 11-12 reps. same for leg press. I usually do 295 but last week I barely could do 275 for 12 reps. I was sore for the whole week too!!! My cardio has really suffered this week as well. I couldn't get my heart rate up easily at all. When i did I felt like I was going to die. I am either sick or this diet is really affecting me. I think I'll get through this because I understand it is normal and I'm tough. Will I lose muscle since i'm not lifting as heavy?
sorry for all the questions. Thanks so much!

Ok, first way to much gum, that needs to be cut down there are hidden carbs in sugar free gum.

Refeeds, 30 minutes to one hour prior to depletion workout have some sugar, then after the workout start your refeed up to 48 hours or something in between. Then go back to low carb.

Your main problem with your diet is the gum your chewing. Most women can get by with 50 grams of carbs a day, you may be one who can't, 20 grams a day may be what you need. Do not cut calories your already doing a ton of work now.

You must do the diet properly for it to work. Low carb, then the depletion then the refeed with 300-500 grams of carbs. Your energy levels should come back up

If you have been dieting more than 8 weeks take a diet break and come back ready to go.

Nutrition is to key to keeping lean body tissue.