Fat loss with ketogenic: cyclical & targeted ketogenic w/weight training

[clubsoda]

Hi all, this is my first post. I've really enjoyed reading this bulletin board over the past week or so and I'd love to join and be able to check in with you guys. I'm almost finished with my second PSMF week (been an LC beliver for years, but had a horribly carby winter). I'm having my second refeed tomorrow. I think it will be frozen yogurt and oatmeal cookies. I'm trying not to weigh myself, but I think I'm down over 10 pounds in 12 days. I'm going to try to stick it out for another week at least, or maybe two if I can stand it. I'm doing my free meal on Mondays and my refeed on Wednesdays, so I can rest on the weekends if the prolonged fast gets to me.
I think I'm going to come off PSMF onto CKD- planning actually to keep eating exactly as I am but add ~50g of fat per day to the PSMF food and continue the FM/RF as I am. Does that sound reasonable? I've never tried CKD as an (intentional) long-term plan, but I think it might work for me. I get fatigued after a couple weeks of straight LC and my workouts become impossible, and then I have uncontrolled carb binges. Better to just plan the carbs out, clearly.
Anyway, I've decided on three goals for myelf for the summer. One is to fit into my favorite jeans that I can currently barely zip, and to hit virgin weight territory, which for me is under 125 (the weight/body stuff is a single goal). Goal two is to stay in control of my eating so my blood sugar and mood are stable, and I don't have hypoglycemic attacks, binging, stomach aches, and all the rest of the misery from chaotic carb eating. Oh, and the final goal is to only weigh myself once a week, probably on saturdays.

Sorry this is so long. Once again, hi everyone!

[hummingbird11]

Hi ClubSoda!

I'm new here too. Began Atkins on 3/24 and getting more & more interested in this "carb cycling" idea. I haven't had an uncontrolled carb binge (yet) but I have been EXTRA HUNGRY after my workouts lately and I agree with your theory of "better to just plan the carbs out". Then we can look forward to them instead of feeling guilty!

I'm thinking of buying the BFFM e-book. Do you have it? If not, what are you using as a resource? I'm really interested in Sample Menus - do you have any? I'm just not that creative with food, although I have become a LOT more so ever since starting Atkins, and I'm definitely cooking more than ever before so hubby is totally on-board & supportive even tho he doesn't need to lose!

I LIKE the idea of keeping my metabolism "humming" - I really don't want to compromise my metabolism by eating lowcarb for too long the way so many seem to do with long-term (and yo-yo) lowcarb; lowfat; lowcal. Not for me. I don't want a crash diet - I want BALANCE and HEALTH and permanent weight loss!

I haven't gotten any more books yet cause I'm not sure which way to go yet.

Any insight you care to share re: BFFM vs. Anabolic Diet vs. BANTA (vs. any other similar WOE in this genre) would be much appreciated!

Maybe we can learn together and check-in with each other? Have you checked-out Watch-Me-Shrink's Goal Seeking Journal? It's pretty interesting as she records her thoughts, trials & tribulations as she figures out the best combo of Atkins/BFFM/TKD for herself.

I think I would do better with CKD with re-feed/carb-up on Fridays.

What is PSMF? and what is FM/RF?

XO,
HB

[gillygum]

Originally Posted by amiga74

Follow this for at least 6 days. Then do depletion workout and then have your refeed, then get back on the diet.
Many people go 10 days for the first stretch before any type of refeed, to get used to the diet.

The beauty of keto is that the calories are not too low and that you lose fat, not muscle. You are able to maintain your workouts.

can someone explain for me what a depletion workout is?

[clubsoda]

Hi hummingbird, thanks for the welcome. I'm basically doing Lyle McDonald's PSMF plan, which is one free meal and one refeed per week. My refeed went REALLY REALLY badly yesterday. I meant to do it in the evening, but I was hungry at 2 so I ate my oatmeal cookies and Lara bar. Bad news. I was starving at 9, and ended up ordering in a burger and fries and what ended up being a really big brownie. I ate almost everything and felt ok, but then I woke up at 3am with heart palpitations, and sat on the bathroom floor for an hour dry-heaving. It felt like I was drugged- I guess my body is really having a hard time with blood sugar regulation. Next week for the refeed, rice.

Anyway, I don't exactly have menus, but mostly what I'm eating are chicken breasts, casein protein powder, egg whites with spinach, and Icelandic yogurt (I hate cottage cheese). About 150g protein, maybe 15g carb, little fat except a bunch of fish oil. This is, by the way, a (relatively safe) crash diet. I put on 15 pounds this winter so I'm doing this for a few weeks until my clothes fit better, then I'll up the fat/calories to something more sustainable long-term. Sorry, don't know what BFFM is.

Gillygum, the depletion workout is (I think) meant to clear out remaining glycogen so that when you do your refeed it goes to your muscle tissue, not fat.

[btinc]

Originally Posted by clubsoda

Hi hummingbird, thanks for the welcome. I'm basically doing Lyle McDonald's PSMF plan, which is one free meal and one refeed per week. My refeed went REALLY REALLY badly yesterday. I meant to do it in the evening, but I was hungry at 2 so I ate my oatmeal cookies and Lara bar. Bad news. I was starving at 9, and ended up ordering in a burger and fries and what ended up being a really big brownie. I ate almost everything and felt ok, but then I woke up at 3am with heart palpitations, and sat on the bathroom floor for an hour dry-heaving. It felt like I was drugged- I guess my body is really having a hard time with blood sugar regulation. Next week for the refeed, rice.

This is the problem with the ultra low calorie diets, the binge factor the rebound factor. Remember this is not a long term solution it is meant for those that are really close to there goal.
I will say it again, what happens when you decide to return to your normal calorie intake. Then what. It's not like your hunger is going to go away when you reach your goal. I hope no one thinks that this is a life time approach.

[hummingbird11]

Originally Posted by btinc

This is the problem with the ultra low calorie diets, the binge factor the rebound factor. Remember this is not a long term solution it is meant for those that are really close to there goal.
I will say it again, what happens when you decide to return to your normal calorie intake. Then what. It's not like your hunger is going to go away when you reach your goal. I hope no one thinks that this is a life time approach.

Thanks btinc - I like your posts - always informative and practical.

Any insight you care to share Carb Cycling (in general) and re: BFFM vs. Anabolic Diet vs. BANTA (vs. any other similar WOE in this genre) would be much appreciated!

Whatever carb cycling route I choose to take, I would like to combine w/ Atkins lowcarb lifestyle.

Many thanks in advance for your thoughts!

[hummingbird11]

Originally Posted by clubsoda

My refeed went REALLY REALLY badly yesterday. I meant to do it in the evening, but I was hungry at 2 so I ate my oatmeal cookies and Lara bar. Bad news. I was starving at 9, and ended up ordering in a burger and fries and what ended up being a really big brownie. I ate almost everything and felt ok, but then I woke up at 3am with heart palpitations, and sat on the bathroom floor for an hour dry-heaving. It felt like I was drugged- I guess my body is really having a hard time with blood sugar regulation.!

WOW - that sounds SCARY! I salute your honesty! But please be careful.

I've heard a bit about PSMF, but anything that requires drinking a shake instead of eating real food, is just not for me. I don't have the self-discipline and I prefer fresh, organic, whole foods & nutrients. BALANCE is key for me.

IMHO, I really don't think there is such a thing as a relatively safe crash diet. Weight lost fast is regained fast. I see it over and over in these threads. I would LOVE to drop 20 lbs by June 6 (vacation!) but I'm shooting for 10-13 lbs as I know it's more realistic. The weight didn't get there overnight and it's not going to go away overnight.

And I certainly don't want to wreck my metabolism either. Looking for ways to keep it humming and revved up!

XO,
HB

[hummingbird11]

Originally Posted by gillygum

can someone explain for me what a depletion workout is?

HERE YOU GO:
Fat loss with ketogenic: cyclical & targeted ketogenic w/weight training

THANKS btinc!
Your posts are extremely helpful & invaluable to me!
Thank you so much for sharing your extensive knowledge!

[hummingbird11]

Good Morning! Happy Friday!

btinc, you really know your stuff! I love your posts here and in Twyla's journal. GREAT STUFF.

I just re-read the entire Ketogenic thread. I read it a week ago but was overwhelmed by the info.
But this time I understood things better and it's soaking in. The information is priceless. So logical.

And so I'm gonna DO IT! I would greatly appreciate your review/advice re: my CKD plan:

Phase 1
A 12 Day Low Carbohydrate, High Fat, High Protein Diet.
35-50 percent protein, 50-65 percent fat, keep carbs at 30 grams (NET?) or less per day.
(I've been in Phase 1 since 03/24)

Phase 2
A 12-48 Hours High Carb, Lower Fat Diet.
No restrictions on carbs, do not stuff yourself and stop the carb intake at the point of bloating.
Calories should be around 3000 for the refeed; with 300-500 grams of Carbs
Start with no more than a 24 hour refeed
(refeed on Friday, 5/2)

Phase 3
Return to to Phase 1 and refeed every 5-7 days.
(return to Phase 1 on Saturday, 5/3)

Laura told me about the Harris Benedict Equation so:

I'm 5'8"' 163 lbs; 45 yrs old; female / BMR = 1472.15

1472.15 x 1.55 (moderate exercise) = 2281.83 total calories needed

2281.83 - 500 calories for weight loss = approx 1800 calories per day **

Does that sound about right to you?

** And then I would ensure those 1800 daily calories are Atkins-Friendly "controlled carb" calories (6 days a week) but then I get to eat whatever I want on ReFeed Friday's? This sounds too good to be true! Are CKD and TKD both considered "carb cycling"?

Short and Long-Term refeed
Depending on your response might want to refeed on low glycemic carbs for 48 hours, or perhaps only 12 hours using high glycemic carbs. Or anything in between. ("DEPENDING ON YOUR RESPONSE"?? MEANS WHAT??)

Avoid The Following: Bread, Pasta, Grains, Fruit, Starchy vegetables
NO GRAINS?? OR JUST ATKINS-LIKE GUIDELINES FOR THE LOWCARB DAYS ONLY?
Fat loss with ketogenic: cyclical & targeted ketogenic w/weight training

DO WE GET TO CARB-UP ON WHATEVER WE WANT ON OUR WEEKLY REFEED DAY??
Fat loss with ketogenic: cyclical & targeted ketogenic w/weight training

MY EXERCISE SCHEDULE:

M: 20 min Elliptical/HIIT + Cory Everson's Get Hard Arms

T: Callanetics

W: 20 min Elliptical/HIIT + Cory Everson's Get Hard Arms

R: Callanetics

F: 20 min Elliptical/HIIT + Cory Everson's Get Hard Arms (Depletion Workout)
(do I need to eat fruit before this workout or can I have Grapenuts cereal?)

S: Callanetics

S: 30 min Elliptical/SS + Rapid Results Pilates

Plus of course, daily dog walks/hikes with my 4 dawgs!

THANK YOUTHANK YOUTHANK YOU

[btinc]

Originally Posted by hummingbird11

Good Morning! Happy Friday!

btinc, you really know your stuff! I love your posts here and in Twyla's journal. GREAT STUFF.

I just re-read the entire Ketogenic thread. I read it a week ago but was overwhelmed by the info.
But this time I understood things better and it's soaking in. The information is priceless. So logical.

And so I'm gonna DO IT! I would greatly appreciate your review/advice re: my CKD plan:

Phase 1
A 12 Day Low Carbohydrate, High Fat, High Protein Diet.
35-50 percent protein, 50-65 percent fat, keep carbs at 30 grams (NET?) or less per day.
(I've been in Phase 1 since 03/24)

Phase 2
A 12-48 Hours High Carb, Lower Fat Diet.
No restrictions on carbs, do not stuff yourself and stop the carb intake at the point of bloating.
Calories should be around 3000 for the refeed; with 300-500 grams of Carbs
Start with no more than a 24 hour refeed
(refeed on Friday, 5/2)

Phase 3
Return to to Phase 1 and refeed every 5-7 days.
(return to Phase 1 on Saturday, 5/3)

Laura told me about the Harris Benedict Equation so:

I'm 5'8"' 163 lbs; 45 yrs old; female / BMR = 1472.15

1472.15 x 1.55 (moderate exercise) = 2281.83 total calories needed

2281.83 - 500 calories for weight loss = approx 1800 calories per day **

Does that sound about right to you?

** And then I would ensure those 1800 daily calories are Atkins-Friendly "controlled carb" calories (6 days a week) but then I get to eat whatever I want on ReFeed Friday's? This sounds too good to be true! Are CKD and TKD both considered "carb cycling"?

Short and Long-Term refeed
Depending on your response might want to refeed on low glycemic carbs for 48 hours, or perhaps only 12 hours using high glycemic carbs. Or anything in between. ("DEPENDING ON YOUR RESPONSE"?? MEANS WHAT??)

Avoid The Following: Bread, Pasta, Grains, Fruit, Starchy vegetables
NO GRAINS?? OR JUST ATKINS-LIKE GUIDELINES FOR THE LOWCARB DAYS ONLY?
Fat loss with ketogenic: cyclical & targeted ketogenic w/weight training

DO WE GET TO CARB-UP ON WHATEVER WE WANT ON OUR WEEKLY REFEED DAY??
Fat loss with ketogenic: cyclical & targeted ketogenic w/weight training

MY EXERCISE SCHEDULE:

M: 20 min Elliptical/HIIT + Cory Everson's Get Hard Arms

T: Callanetics

W: 20 min Elliptical/HIIT + Cory Everson's Get Hard Arms

R: Callanetics

F: 20 min Elliptical/HIIT + Cory Everson's Get Hard Arms (Depletion Workout)
(do I need to eat fruit before this workout or can I have Grapenuts cereal?)

S: Callanetics

S: 30 min Elliptical/SS + Rapid Results Pilates

Plus of course, daily dog walks/hikes with my 4 dawgs!

THANK YOUTHANK YOUTHANK YOU

Check you personal messages.

[hummingbird11]

Originally Posted by btinc

Check you personal messages.

got 'em! THANKS!

[jenjenjlm]

Hey everyone! What a great thread! Very informative! I have been doing Atkins since 5-5......been tryin to learn more about the Ketogenic Diet.

btinc- I think you are absolutely right- even when doing Atkins it is important to refeed every 2 weeks to avoid stalls. The body adapts so easy. Gotta keep it guessing!

Same with exercise...always change it up! Repetition is the enemy! Doing the same exercises all the time creates plateaus. I am a huge fan of HIIT and circuit training. I have had great results! I just need to lose these last stubborn pounds....I think the Keto diet is the answer!

[hummingbird11]

Hey Jen! Nice to bump into you again!
Maybe we can get this Keto thread going again??

I read this thread about 5 times before I "got it".
And btinc is GREAT. Generous w/ good advice!

XO,
HB

[feather319]

Hey all! I thought I'd share. I'm down 4 pounds. I've read about L-carnatine and realized I was not getting enough. I've upped it to 1000 mg a day whereas before I was only getting 500 mg. I am also trying to eat more coconut oil to stop my hunger pains. Eating more red meat as well. I use to think I would never eat red meat! I ate chicken all the time but was always hungry. Red meat has definately helped that.

I'm starting LISS. I usually do a Moderate intensity but am realizing that doing that on an empty stomach in the morning not only drains my energy but also is eating my muscle! I'm trying a lower intensity in the morning. 2 times per week is HIIT though with 3 days of lifting.

My refeed is always cereal. :-) I love cereal. I try to buy good kinds like uncle sam, all-bran extra fiber, fiber one, and cheerios. Personally, I don't think any of them are that healthy but it is the only think that helps me psycologically. I couldn't do a refeed with brown rice or plain oats. I still feel like I'm dieting. Anyway, just wanted to give an update.

PS - I haven't been losing much weight. I found out I have hypothyroidism and have numerous other problems such as chronic hyponatremia and amenorrhea. I've been on hormone therapy the last 5 months and I can't seem to lose weight. I'm working hard though and plan on continuing! I love this plan!

[hummingbird11]

Hi Feather! Did you get my email? I sent twice 'cause I got an error msg the first time.

Congrats on the 4lbs!!!!!!!

I take 1000mg L-Carnitine in the AM and another 500mg in the PM.

My refeed is a huge bowl (full cup) of Grapenuts Cereal!!
(yesterday I poured a vanilla protein shake over 'em - yum!!)

what is LISS?

I will have to Google your health issues. Hang in there!!!!!!!!!!

XO,
HB

[jenjenjlm]

Originally Posted by hummingbird11

Hi Feather! Did you get my email? I sent twice 'cause I got an error msg the first time.

Congrats on the 4lbs!!!!!!!

I take 1000mg L-Carnitine in the AM and another 500mg in the PM.

My refeed is a huge bowl (full cup) of Grapenuts Cereal!!
(yesterday I poured a vanilla protein shake over 'em - yum!!)

what is LISS?

I will have to Google your health issues. Hang in there!!!!!!!!!!

XO,
HB

Hey there hummingbird!

What is L-Carnitine good for? I was wondering if you could give me some pointers on starting the keto diet also! I've read some on it...but still learning!

[hummingbird11]

Originally Posted by jenjenjlm

Hey there hummingbird! I was wondering if you could give me some pointers on starting the keto diet also! I've read some on it...but still learning!

Hey Lexapro!

Well, I am just learning Keto too. I'm very much a newbie at this point - I began 9 days ago on 5/2.

If btinc is still checking this thread, he's the expert, and can provide both general & specific advice.

Two biggest suggestions to you:
Track/weigh everything you eat.
Watch your fat on refeed days.

For just about everything that I have personally learned re: Keto, you can go to my Butterfly Blog and read Posts 34 + 40-60 (specifically: 40; 42; 44; 45; 46; 48; 60)

I will be posting later today/tomorrow re: my second refeed (Friday, 5/9) + my weekend macros, etc.

You must calculate your daily macros (Post 1 of this thread) and go from there to see what works for you, personally. And listen to your body. Watch, listen & learn (and track) what works; what doesn't work.

But in general:

Low Carb (20-30 carbs) 6 days a week (high fat/high protein/decent fiber/calories w/in your target range)

Then ONE day a week, allow yourself high carb/high calorie (very low fat/don't worry about protein/fiber)

You MUST exercise on the Keto plan or you may gain instead of lose.
And you must do a Depletion Workout on refeed day - see Post #308 in this thread.
Doesn’t sound like this part will be any problem for you!

And you must get right back on track after the 24-hour "cheat day" (refeed).
Enjoy your carb cravings EARLY on refeed/cheat day; finish w/ complex carbs.
(this should help reduce carb cravings the following "back on track" LC day)

XO,
Effexor


PS:
Hey Jen, I just did 3 "planks" 20 seconds each - holy lord - tougher than it sounds!!
How many reps are ya supposed to do?? Or just hold one as long as possible??

PSS:
I left this msg for you in another thread; just wanted to be sure you saw it!

I still have red wine on Friday nights 'cause Friday is my re-feed day!

Jen, did you base your daily calorie intake & other macros on your BMR?
Or did you use the info in Post #1 of Keto thread to calculate macros?
If both - did they match-up? Just curious.

And what are your calculated macros for your weekly refeed day?
(btinc will need to help you here)

Are you tracking your calories/carbs/fat/fiber/protein in Fit Day?
(I use a spreadsheet and just enter the Total in Fit Day for %)

If you're doing Keto, then you need to have the right formula/percentages.

What made you decide to do Keto? How did you find out about it? Just curious...

XO,
HB

[hummingbird11]

Originally Posted by jenjenjlm

Hey there hummingbird! What is L-Carnitine good for?

Atkins promotes the use of L-carnitine: 1000-1500mg daily to aid weight loss.

He says L-carnitine can help break up a weight loss logjam (stall) + help nutritionally deficient overweight people get into lipolysis and ketosis.

Also, he suggests Coenzyme Q10 (CoQ10) - says he often prescribes to people over 40, usually in a dose of 100 mg per day. Says it works in collaboration with L-carnitine (& chromium) to mobilize fat.

Atkins suggests these supplements during weight loss:

Chromium [chromium polynicotinate] (300-1000 mcg)
Pantethine (20 mg)
Pantothenic Acid (60 mg)
Selenium (50 mcg)
Vanadium (40 mcg)
Biotin (150 mcg)

(apparently the above 6 were in "Atkins Basic #3 Formula" which I can’t seem to find anywhere except expired lots on eBay - but I get most of these via very complete daily multi-vitamins - not exact, but close)

Plus I take:
L-carnitine (1500 mg) - 1000mg AM + 500mg PM
CoQ10 (100 mg) - 50mg AM/PM

And:
Essential Fatty Acids (EFA's): OMEGA 3/6/9

btinc also recommended the following for me & Twyla - Ask him if you should take, too?

Na-rala (100mg for every 50 grams of carbs; but no more than 500mg at one sitting)
Cinnamon extract
Fish oil
Multi-vitamin w/ iodine

[feather319]

Hummingbird,
just read your email before this thread. I was asking about supplements but I already see you posted. I'll post mine on here. I forgot a few that when I emailed and asked about your intake but but posted them here.

Chromium
Biotin
L-carnitine (1000-1500 mg)
CoQ10 (100 mg)
5-HTP
Fish Oil caps and/or Cod Liver oil liquid
CLA
GLA
Multivitamin (from raw food)
Garden of Life