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Old 06-26-2012, 04:32 PM   #781
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At one time I was kefiring 1 gallon of WK every two days & using it to put in cooled tea concentrate for iced tea.... Didnt let it 2F for carbonation. Wonderful way to sweeten iced tea for the summer. Thanks!
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Old 06-29-2012, 01:33 PM   #782
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I have only had my wkg about three weeks, but I've gone from 4 tbs to about 3-4 cups of grains. I use organic brown sugar, baking soda, sea salt and distilled water. They like whatever i am doing. They like it too much! I am even using a bigger jar now, and it's about half full with WFG. That's ok, as it is done fairly quickly and my dh is loving the cream soda I make. I add vanilla extract, vanilla stevia and a few drops of orange stevia to make a mild orange cream flavor.
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Old 06-29-2012, 01:37 PM   #783
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Faithful, I checked my new MKG...thank you very much Faithful for sending them!....and in only one day in the fridge, no less...I'm seeing thick kefieran strands happening!

My DH and kids don't get it, but I know you gals understand my excitement! Can't wait to try some.
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Old 06-29-2012, 05:21 PM   #784
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I am so excited for you. I knew the source you got your grains from had very healthy grains! Have fun with the kefir! Let us know.... I leave mine in gallon jars in the fridge til it starts to separate then strain & put in qt jars. They stay in the fridge for may 8-10 days in rotation waiting for the one in front to get used. I personally like the 12/12 when I am just making a quart at a time. 12 out of fridge/12 in the fridge

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Old 07-01-2012, 07:22 AM   #785
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Thick Water Kefir

Ok... something funny happened on the way to bottle water kefir....

I have my grains that are now making very fizzy water kefir in my "cold room" = room I have my main a/c window in... it stays a very cold 70* ...

I did everything the same except... I had family in from Liberia yesterday (48 hour F) & could not strain & bottle until today, (72 hour F). So, this morning....

I took it in to strain it & it was thick like my milk kefir! Would barely run through my fine mesh plastic strainer. I am talking thick almost like jello starting to gel thick. Grains look great! Kefir smells healthy.... Wait I forgot to taste what I strained out........

Absolutely NO TASTE! Not sweet.... nothing... doesnt even taste like water... just this thick lightly colored (I use demerara sugar) kefir. Wonder if this has morphed into some kind of a super WK. I am sure every bit of the sugar is completely depleated! Grains didnt grow but then they have not done much since November 2011. I have more grains coming hopefully this week from a lady who now in 3 weeks has almost a quart of grains... mine were like that last year! Hmmmmm....

Porcupine, anyone???? if you are reading this... in your journey through Dom's site have you come across anything like this?

I am going to bottle this with some lemon juice & ginger & I will throw in some white cane sugar for good measure since neither the ginger or lemon have much for the kefir to feed on for carbonation.

What do ya'll think???????

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Old 07-01-2012, 11:11 AM   #786
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I think you have some pretty efficient grains and you've not known cause you've kept them on a short leash( short ferment). I'll bet it's thick cause it made kefiran like the milk kefir grains do that thicken the liquid with viscous goo.

How cool that is! I wonder if you could add more sugar and let it go 72 on purpose and see if you get a thick but sweet gel again.

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Old 07-02-2012, 02:12 PM   #787
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Sounds like a great idea. I have the kefir in 4 bottles with some straight apple/cranberry juice 1/4 cup per 16 oz. Wait I will check if it is carbonating......

Yep the bottles are tight. It was really thick when I bottles it...not like something I would want to drink.... but I thought it would be worth a try.

I think I will add more to the next ferment... or will maybe let this one go 72 hours & see what happens.

My grains quit their rapid growth last November after I mailed a huge amount out. They are growing but so slow... compared to their previous growth. I will let this one go til 7/4 & see what happened. Will let you know.... If it is thick again I will add a little more sugar & try a 72 ferment with more sugar to see what happend.

I have someone sending me grains from CA. She got hers 4 weeks ago and has about a quart of them now. I dont think I will join them together like I did the MKG.

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Old 07-03-2012, 10:36 AM   #788
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Old 07-10-2012, 01:51 PM   #789
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My first batch of kefir tasted good, the next better. Then we went away for four days...i put them in fridge with fresh milk and lid open slightly.

I got the nicest, thickest kefir yet. mild flavored and just a hint of bubbles. 2/5 kids drank it plain! It was thick like melted ice cream. I made some into ranch dressing and shared a bit with the cats too! No sour taste, just tang like yogurt.

Do I have to kefir at room temp or can I continue like this in the fridge?

Thank you again, Faithful!! Can't believe the difference in the grains you sent.
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Old 07-10-2012, 07:34 PM   #790
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That sounds delicious. I think I'll have some kefir right now. I love when it's bubbly. I usually get a really strong tangy sour( like lemon) kefir, but I'd like it mild if it were bubbly also.

That sounds really thick. I made some with 1% milk and when I realized my mistake I added some cream to it to bring up the fat, but when I checked it after it sat in the fridge for about a week, it's super thick like milkshake.

I do a combo of counter and fridge. I seem to be getting a good thickening action in the fridge, but I leave it on the counter to start to give them a warmth boost. After I see the action starting, I strain it and either let it sit out longer or put in the fridge to slow it down and build up thickness.
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Old 07-11-2012, 05:57 AM   #791
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I was just thinking about you this morning and how the kefiring was going. So to see your post. Those are healthy little buggers...traveled almost 1/2 way around the world, flew over the Atlantic & rest in your Irish raw milk - all that without being fed for 2+weeks! Who said kefir was not healthy! I would never worry about anything kefir grains have been in...no matter how long it was unrefrigerated!

I do all my milk kefir in the fridge now since I have so many grains. I put them in a gallon jar & fill it almost to the top with Dean's whole milk. Leave it there with the lid on until I see it start to separate or longer if I dont have empty jars yet. Strain & reload the SAME container without washing it. My MK is thick mild & bubbley! Sometimes it separates in the jars and the whey is on the bottom. If I want something really thick I spoon it off the top, otherwise I just mix it in. It takes me about 3 weeks to completely finish a batch from the time I start the 1F in the fridge...yes, I have that many quart jars in my fridge...it is downstairs & holds KT, 2F WK, Fermented Ginger Beer, sourkraut & other ferments......

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Old 07-11-2012, 07:00 AM   #792
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Lately My whey has been separating and making a layer on top! How a bout that?! My milk solids usually float. I guess because of all the bubbles it's making, but strange that it still seems bubbly but not floating. Oh Well, it still tastes great no matter how it floats!

If I pour the whey off, I have super thick white milk solids. I've been stirring it back in to make it drinkable. But I might pour off some from a future batch to make the ranch flavored dressing with the thick remainder.
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Old 07-11-2012, 08:50 AM   #793
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Mine always separates since I use raw milk. I stirred this last batch up to filter off the grains and there is so much kefiran that it didn't separate again last night. I need to taste the cream sometime.

So another question...when you kefir in the fridge do you seal it tight? I was afraid the 1F would explode so I used a canning jar with the clasp unlocked to vent. Can I tightly seal the 2F? I want to try to get it more bubbly.

It is funny because when I was younger, I would never have tried kefir for fear of food poisoning. It looks rotten after all. But the more I learn, the more game I am to try new things.

I used to heat my raw milk up to 180F to make yogurt but now I just warm it a little. It tastes soooo much better and none of us have gotten sick yet. In fact, the opposite. I am a true convert to raw milk now.

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Old 07-11-2012, 09:17 AM   #794
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You only need to heat milk to 110-115 to innoculate the yogurt. It is that temp that is necessary for the micro-organisms to start growing.

Why not make some cream kefir.... just use your cream & put in a few grains...either ferment on counter or fridge... count your grains so you can pull them out as it will be 2 thick to strain... you can do the same with 1/2 n 1/2 Both turn out like sour cream and is better for you

Not necessary to cap the kefir tight in the fridge. I have gallon pickle jars and I just screw on the top loosely to keep other flavors/odors from the fridge out. If you use canning lids for the 2F you can put them down snug but be prepared for a big "fizz" whoosh when you loosen them. I have had them buckle on me before so keep an eye on them... you will prolly drink it before that happens. As your grains grow so will your container for brewing.... you can eat your grains if you get too many. Hugs

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Old 07-11-2012, 12:24 PM   #795
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Hi everyone, forgive me because I don't have time to wade through 27 pages of this thread (wow!) and the search function and I don't get along too well. I have a few questions for you experts:

1. I have the top of the fermenting jar covered with a nylon mesh. The kefir is doing great and fermenting nicely, but no fizz. Is this because the jar is open to the air? Could I get a fizz if I did a secondary fermentation in a closed jar? Should the jar for primary fermentation be open or closed--seems like there are differing opinions on that???

2. Does anyone know if all the lactose is consumed by the fermentation process? In other words, is a 24 hour fermentation of whole milk into kefir enough to reduce or eliminate the carbs in whole milk?

3. My grains tend to stay on the bottom of the jar, instead of floating up to the top as I've seen others describe. Is that a problem?

4. We tend to have chilly nights here even during the summer, and in the winter our house stays pretty cold, 63 at most for the few hours we run the heat. Any suggestions to keep the kefir warm enough to keep producing? I'm thinking of getting a styrofoam cooler and heating up a 'bed buddy" in the microwave to lay in there with my kefir jar.

I got my kefir grains from an eBay vendor just last Friday and they did not look to promising when received. But they perked right up and they're working great. I start each batch after dinner, and by morning the milk is thick and slightly sour. I give it a good stir in the morning. By evening it's very sour which is the way DH prefers it and the whey is separating.

One thing that amazes me is that within an hour after I give them the morning stir the whey starts separating. Things happen quickly at that point. These are really vigorous grains.
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Old 07-11-2012, 12:42 PM   #796
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Hi everyone, forgive me because I don't have time to wade through 27 pages of this thread (wow!) and the search function and I don't get along too well. I have a few questions for you experts:

1. I have the top of the fermenting jar covered with a nylon mesh. The kefir is doing great and fermenting nicely, but no fizz. Is this because the jar is open to the air? Could I get a fizz if I did a secondary fermentation in a closed jar? Should the jar for primary fermentation be open or closed--seems like there are differing opinions on that???
You will need to use a closed jar to encourage fizz. It's carbon dioxide build up but it easily evaporates into the air. A 2F with a closed lid should do the trick

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2. Does anyone know if all the lactose is consumed by the fermentation process? In other words, is a 24 hour fermentation of whole milk into kefir enough to reduce or eliminate the carbs in whole milk?
I'm not sure. I know it is really reduced, and lactose is not the only sugar in milk, so I'm not sure if "all the sugar" is gone. I do know that lactose intolerant people can drink it so maybe all the Lactose is gone if not all the sugars.

Quote:
3. My grains tend to stay on the bottom of the jar, instead of floating up to the top as I've seen others describe. Is that a problem?
My grains got stuck in the milk solids and since the solids floated, so did the grains. but when I put the milk in, the grains stayed at the bottom, so I think it's just how thick and where your solids stay determining where the grains end up. Since lately, my kefir is not even separating, the grains have been staying on the bottom, but if I leave it out too long and it gets super carbonated, the milk solids and the grains will try to crawl out of the top of the jar!
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4. We tend to have chilly nights here even during the summer, and in the winter our house stays pretty cold, 63 at most for the few hours we run the heat. Any suggestions to keep the kefir warm enough to keep producing? I'm thinking of getting a styrofoam cooler and heating up a 'bed buddy" in the microwave to lay in there with my kefir jar.
If you are getting the kefir the way you like it and the time is not an inconvenience, I'd say leave well enough alone. Once I realized I would never get kefir the way I liked it in a full 24 hours, I just let it go for 12 since that's what the grains liked, now in the summer it's as short as overnight 8 hours. Its okay if the time fluctuates with temperature. If it's so cold that the grains aren't making kefir by 24 hours, then you may want to look into warming it. It might be as simple as putting it on top of the fridge to take advantage of the warm air coming from behind. Some people kefir in the fridge where it's probably much colder than your home and it comes out how they like it. I'd go with the simplest solution to the ends you like. More complications, boxes and pads and such mean that more likely to put it off if in a rush.

Quote:
I got my kefir grains from an eBay vendor just last Friday and they did not look to promising when received. But they perked right up and they're working great. I start each batch after dinner, and by morning the milk is thick and slightly sour. I give it a good stir in the morning. By evening it's very sour which is the way DH prefers it and the whey is separating.

One thing that amazes me is that within an hour after I give them the morning stir the whey starts separating. Things happen quickly at that point. These are really vigorous grains.
It sounds like your grains are producing just fine despite the temperature concerns. If you warmed it up, then it will go MUCH more quickly and you might end up with oversoured batches unless you watch them carefully.
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Old 07-11-2012, 02:03 PM   #797
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What Metqa said...Give your grains time to get "climatized" to the new environment & milk. Also they traveled and need time to recoop.

It may take a while for your grains to "rise to the occasion" or to produce fizzy kefir. It sometimes takes time & age of grains.

Never rinse your grains - if you feel so compelled, use milk to rinse them. I rinsed mine with filtered water once & it took several cycles for the grains to produce the kefiran that helps to produce the terrific kefir I have now.

As to the lactose.... I read a report from a reliable source that for properly fermented Kefir you can reduce the amount of lactose (carbs) in your kefir by the amount of ounces you are drinking. EG. If your milk has 15 carbs for a 10oz glass then the net carbs would be 5. Cant quote the source but it made sense to me... hope this helps.

One last thing (maybe) kefir grains like it cool 72* or less. I do all my kefiring (milk) in my fridge so unless you are in a hurry, I would not bother with trying to warm them or the area... Metqa gave a good suggestion regarding the fridge top.

It is so cool where you are & I have been 105*+ heat. May I ask where in this world you are????

Last... (I think) Be sure your nylon mesh is a very tight weave to keep "critters" out. A coffee filther, paper towel or piece of a t-shirt also works. You can use a jar top, however, I reserve that for the refrigerator.

OK one more thing then I am finished!! Be sure to keep different types of ferments (eg. WK, MK, KT, Ginger, Kraut) about 4' apart for long term fermenting. If you cant, I would not worry but it does help keep your grains from becoming weakened. (I have no proof of that just suggestions from long time fermenters.)
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Old 07-11-2012, 03:06 PM   #798
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Thanks everyone!

I'm in Northern California, about an hour north of the Golden Gate Bridge. It's supposed to be in the 100's today, but our "heat waves" last a day or two, and then it cools off nicely with fog (natural air conditioning!). It is in the low 50's most nights, except during the heat waves. We don't have AC, but we do have two solar attic fans that keep the house bearable on hot days. The house will stay in the 80's until the sun goes down and the fans shut off, then it warms up for a few hours while the day's heat dissapates.

Most summer days are in the high 70's and 80's and evenings are cool--it's lovely! But it does mean that my fermentables are subject to a range of temperatures--from about 50 to mid-eighties in the course of 24 hours. I started my last batch of kraut during a heat wave and it took off like gangbusters, but then it slowed down to a crawl when our fog came back. I got a new cabbage for a new batch today, to take advantage of the current heat wave!

I'm OK with not producing a batch of kefir every 24 hours. Already DH (who drinks it) is complaining it's hard to keep up with the production--about 8 oz a day. I like the idea of doing it all in the fridge where it's slower and there's more control, and may switch over to that once I know my grains a little better.

I'm off dairy right now, so the MK is for DH, but when there are enough grains to separate some out (a few more days, I think, at this rate) I'm going to try coconut kefir for me. I bought some coconut kefir at WF to try and really liked it--less sour than DH likes the MK. So that's going to be my probiotic drink. I tried kombucha, but discovered I did not like the vinegary taste.

BTW, I propogated my own kombucha SCOBY quite easily from a bottle of raw kombucha, refrigeration (of the original bottle of kombucha) did not harm the beasties at all. I read here somewhere that refrigeration would kill the SCOBY, but that wasn't the case. I made a good, healthy SCOBY, but then I gave it away. It was a fun experiment.
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Old 07-13-2012, 02:07 PM   #799
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My kefir jar has baby grains in it.

I use a fine mesh strainer to strain my kefir. grains can't get through. Then I filter it a second time to make sure it's all homogenized, and I stash it in the fridge. I've been getting little pieces of grain in my finished milked stored for more than a short while. I think microscopic fragments of grains are making it through the mesh and then growing to visible size grains in the finished product because what I'm finding is large enough to see easily and too big to get through my strainer.

I put a plastic lid on my finished kefir's jars and seal it down and my kefir is fizzy , not bubbly, but like sparkling water lightly carbonated. Nice!
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Old 07-14-2012, 02:12 AM   #800
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Jan, if you kefir in the fridge it will take longer but the taste is very mild although it is thick. If you ever want to try grains from a different source, FB msg me & I can give you a terrific connection to water & milk kefir grains.

If you kefir in any alternative milk, almond, coconut water/milk etc, you will need to return your grains occasionally to animal milk, cow/goat/etd, to keep them strong.

Hugs!

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Old 07-14-2012, 04:44 AM   #801
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I convinced my mom to put her grains in whole milk. They don't drink milk much so she was using powdered, and she said it had been turning really fast and separating. Once she put it into whole milk she said it was smooth and turned just fast enough and didn't curddle as fast. So fat does seem to make some difference.

Uh, the jar that had 1%milk, I added just a bit of cream and kefired it and the whole jar is now too thick to drink! LOL
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Old 07-14-2012, 11:53 AM   #802
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I convinced my mom to put her grains in whole milk. They don't drink milk much so she was using powdered, and she said it had been turning really fast and separating. Once she put it into whole milk she said it was smooth and turned just fast enough and didn't curddle as fast. So fat does seem to make some difference.

Uh, the jar that had 1%milk, I added just a bit of cream and kefired it and the whole jar is now too thick to drink! LOL
Pick the grains out & use it like sour cream! I have kefired 1/2 n 1/2 & it is thick like sourcream....
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Old 07-16-2012, 05:00 PM   #803
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I took some of the kefir, added a few chopped up strawberries, and set it on the counter for a secondary fermentation. YOWSA! It nearly exploded when I opened it! Strawberry cream soda!

DH and I liked it, the kids did not, even with honey for a sweetener. That was a fun thing to do.

Next experiment, I managed to get my hands on a quart of raw milk. I want to see how that comes out. Not sure I'll do this on a regular basis as the raw milk cost a fortune, but DH and I have been wanting to try raw milk anyway.
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Old 07-17-2012, 07:27 AM   #804
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Wow, I've not second fermented WITH Fruit before, I'll have to try that.
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Old 07-17-2012, 07:42 AM   #805
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Threadjack....

I have to tell Faithful about my Kombucha. It is an interesting beverage to say the least. It is unlike any other. It's like you drink it and it's okay, but then you want to keep drinking it. There is something very "more-ish" about it.

So, DH is not a fan of iced tea in general. I love the stuff and grew up on it. DH wasn't too keen on the Kombucha but the kids wanted to try it. My DS11 said it is horrible, one wouldn't try it at all, DD9 and DS9 liked it and DS13, who is super picky with sensory issues tried it and LOVED it. Who would have thought? My DD9 drank some every day till it was all gone.

Now, nobody knows how I made it. I am sure DS13 would about faint if he saw the scoby floating around. He thinks the kefir experiments are "gross". He has no idea I have been slipping kefir into the smoothies. What he doesn't know won't hurt him.
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Old 07-17-2012, 10:12 AM   #806
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Fermented things are great for neurological function!

I am always awed if it's been a cool-cold night my milk is still liquid in the morning, but I give it a shake and by the time I finish breakfast (about 30 minutes) my kefir has thickened. The little beasties just amaze me.

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Old 07-18-2012, 06:08 AM   #807
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Originally Posted by Maid of Erin View Post
Threadjack....

I have to tell Faithful about my Kombucha. It is an interesting beverage to say the least. It is unlike any other. It's like you drink it and it's okay, but then you want to keep drinking it. There is something very "more-ish" about it. that is so Irish!!

So, DH is not a fan of iced tea in general. I love the stuff and grew up on it. DH wasn't too keen on the Kombucha but the kids wanted to try it. My DS11 said it is horrible, one wouldn't try it at all, DD9 and DS9 liked it and DS13, who is super picky with sensory issues tried it and LOVED it. Who would have thought? My DD9 drank some every day till it was all gone. Hope you got another batch going! If all the KT is gone use white vinegar for starter (not cider or vinegar with a mother in it) to make another batch) On your next batch, take the starter tea from the top of the jar this is where most of the bacteria is.

Now, nobody knows how I made it. I am sure DS13 would about faint if he saw the scoby floating around. He thinks the kefir experiments are "gross". He has no idea I have been slipping kefir into the smoothies. What he doesn't know won't hurt him.
No problems about the threadjack! Glad it is working for you! Make a hotel for your extras & you can use the SCOBYs on insect bites & scrapes under the bandage (change daily) to heal...takes the sting out of stinging insects.

Most of us are also on the Kombucha Thread.
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Interesting thing about Kombucha... either people love it or leave it! Those who really like it & want more NEED what is in it more than they realize. The thread is a long one...reading it gave me the gumption to start brewing. I bought my 1st bottle$4.99+7%tax and took one drink...within seconds the whole bottle was gone there at the register where I paid for it...IMMEDIATELY went back in for 3 more bottles then bought a case & another case so I would have bottles to store my bouch. Now I have cases of swing tops...brew ahead & store it up!

Come join us on the Kombucha thread! You will find lots of tips there! We restarted the thread last year after being dormant for over a year....

Good going on the kefir slipping... I take water kefir, mix it with some extra sugar (need it for what I make) lemon & lime, put it in my Cuisinart Dessert freezer (ice cream machine) & make slushies for the kids.... you can mix any good fruit juice with it & leave out the sugar.... they love the slushies & dont care if it is kefir or not.... also make milk kefir icecream by using 1/2 kefir & 1/2 milk (you could use cream from your raw milk) & fruit... they eat it up!

Last edited by iamfaithful; 07-18-2012 at 06:16 AM..
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Old 07-18-2012, 06:19 AM   #808
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Originally Posted by Janknitz View Post
Fermented things are great for neurological function!

I am always awed if it's been a cool-cold night my milk is still liquid in the morning, but I give it a shake and by the time I finish breakfast (about 30 minutes) my kefir has thickened. The little beasties just amaze me.
Yup! Amazing little creatures!

I have sent cultures north, south, east, & west. To Canada, Mexico & across the Atlantic! It always amazes me when I hear how they survive the trip & thrive afterward!
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Old 07-18-2012, 06:30 AM   #809
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I use quart jars for the milk kefir 2F. With those lids on tightly it will get very fizzy after a few days. It will blow the lids right off like you say though. In the 2F anyway, it is important to keep air away from it, else it seems to get very vinegary tasting.

Normally if it isn't too warm, my grains float right up within the first inch of two of the jar. So I can just pick them out with my fingers and put them into fresh milk. Sometimes when it is too warm or goes too long the grains sink to the bottom.

I've been giving the cat some milk kefir each day. She really likes it. I have noticed that after I started giving it to her, she never seems to get sick anymore. Anyone with cats or probably other animals knows they seem to suffer from digestive upset from time to time.

I have to cut back consumption of MK for a couple weeks due to a raw milk supply chain issue. I have a couple gallons left but earliest more will be available is in two weeks.

Yes I like kombucha 2F in swing tops. I rotate through about seven dozen swingtops now for the second ferments. I've been really liking elderberries and sliced ginger in the 2F now. With the warm temps, if I notice the 2F's are getting a little too 'done' then I start rotating a dozen or two bottles through the refrigerator as well.

It's great to have a backup supply. Because I like to mess things up in my brewers and might be out of production for a week or so while things restart. Without the backup supply I don't know what I would do, since you cannot buy anything similar in the stores since the the formulation change.

My latest mess up was with the tea. I normally tasted my tea before adding it to the brewer but since it was always good I stopped checking. My KT started getting really bitter tasting, then I tasted the tea I was using, and wow yuck bitter. I think it was a combination of using water too hot, too much tea, and too much gunpowder green tea.

I let the water cool a bit before adding the tea, used less tea, and very little of the gunpowder green, and then it tasted good again.
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Old 07-18-2012, 07:05 AM   #810
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Hi Poucupine! Glad to see you pop in....

I've been giving the cat some milk kefir each day. She really likes it. I have noticed that after I started giving it to her, she never seems to get sick anymore. Anyone with cats or probably other animals knows they seem to suffer from digestive upset from time to time. Funny you should mention that...yesterday I was at Woofer Watchers & told a family to contact me & I would give the MKG so they can make kefir for their pooch that has digestive problems the vet cant cure...have not heard from them yet...but maybe as they buy Lifeway (yuck) at WM for themselves.

I have to cut back consumption of MK for a couple weeks due to a raw milk supply chain issue. I have a couple gallons left but earliest more will be available is in two weeks. Such a sad thing to happen... you can always resort to whole milk if you get desperate! My sis has Nubian goats she milks. She gets about 2 gallons a day from the one that is nursing her 2 kids. Maybe you should get your own cow or goat???

I have grains coming out my ears right now! Have some ppl from FB that are asking for cultures so hopefully when I recieve mail from them in the new future I can go back to a manageable amount. I have so many MKG I have to culture by the gallon & in the fridge to keep it a slow ferment
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