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-   -   Another science question! (http://www.lowcarbfriends.com/bbs/nutritional-ketosis-high-fat-low-carb/822950-another-science-question.html)

clackley 02-18-2014 09:12 AM

Another science question!
 
It is my understanding that the way in which the body digests dietary fats, it is pretty much impossible to actually add to body fat stores. Is this accurate?

lowcarbella 02-18-2014 01:14 PM

What I have in my mind(from reading it somewhere) is that fat raises the least insulin response,thus minimal fat storage.
But excess fat consumption beyond a point can still raise insulin.
There was this idea floating around that excess dietary fat does not cause a deficit so that body fat is accessed.
I don't know if I am making any sense at all.:dunno:

clackley 02-18-2014 01:30 PM

That is really the root of the question. Does fat (in isolation) raise insulin and if it does not, is there another mechanism that can send it to fat storage? It seems to me that it is either used for energy and if it is not needed, it gets dumped. But I am not sure?

Mistizoom 02-18-2014 05:04 PM

This is an interesting question. Here's one line I would ponder: The vast majority of dietary fats are in the form of trigylcerides. Trigylcerides are three fatty acids with a glycerol backbone. Glycerol is a three carbon sugar alcohol - a carbohydrate! The triglyceride molecule gets broken down into free fatty acids plus glycerol during digestion, but then the triglyceride gets reformed when it crosses the intestinal cell wall and packaged into chylomicrons for transport in the blood stream. Ultimately, however, glycerol can be used as a source of raw material for production of glucose in the liver. Would this glucose be stored as fat? I think that would depend on a number of factors.

sources (non-commerical):

Untitled Document

Triacylglycerols Are Highly Concentrated Energy Stores - Biochemistry - NCBI Bookshelf

Food Intake and Starvation Induce Metabolic Changes - Biochemistry - NCBI Bookshelf

If you look at the third link you'll notice that biochemists alway assume ketone production is associated with an abnormal condition (starvation). Every biochemistry class I have ever had (and there have been a few) always, always, use glucose metabolism as the "default" condition.

clackley 02-18-2014 05:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mistizoom (Post 16805782)
This is an interesting question. Here's one line I would ponder: The vast majority of dietary fats are in the form of trigylcerides. Trigylcerides are three fatty acids with a glycerol backbone. Glycerol is a three carbon sugar alcohol - a carbohydrate! The triglyceride molecule gets broken down into free fatty acids plus glycerol during digestion, but then the triglyceride gets reformed when it crosses the intestinal cell wall and packaged into chylomicrons for transport in the blood stream. Ultimately, however, glycerol can be used as a source of raw material for production of glucose in the liver. Would this glucose be stored as fat? I think that would depend on a number of factors.

sources (non-commerical):

Untitled Document

Triacylglycerols Are Highly Concentrated Energy Stores - Biochemistry - NCBI Bookshelf

Food Intake and Starvation Induce Metabolic Changes - Biochemistry - NCBI Bookshelf

If you look at the third link you'll notice that biochemists alway assume ketone production is associated with an abnormal condition (starvation). Every biochemistry class I have ever had (and there have been a few) always, always, use glucose metabolism as the "default" condition.

I was hoping you would give your input! Yes, it is a sticky question that I haven't been able to find a clear answer - particularly since I have no formal training in this area.

I am going to look at the links you provided. That will take me some time. Thank you!

lovetoknit 02-18-2014 07:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by clackley (Post 16804621)
It is my understanding that the way in which the body digests dietary fats, it is pretty much impossible to actually add to body fat stores. Is this accurate?

All I know is fat does not make me gain weight. But too many carbs and too much protein does.
Carolyn

clackley 02-19-2014 05:54 AM

The whole thing behind b.p.c. is that is does not raise insulin and therefore technically can be considered a fast. Like you Carolyn, I never gain weight unless my carb or protein levels have been exceeded. At least that is what I 'think'.

I am not proposing that I may consume fat only because I am aware that I need my protein in order to spare my lean muscle mass. I just think it is one of those things that people puzzle over because it seems almost too good to be true that a bunch of dietary fat (doesn't even need to be much) can suppress appetite and at the same time provide fuel and all without negative impact on weight. It is quite amazing.

It also explains why some methods of weight loss work and some don't.

metqa 02-19-2014 06:25 AM

without siting sources, It was my understanding that in the presence of carbohydrates and insulin response, that since blood sugar is the utmost concern, that the processing of it into glycogen and muscle storage is first priority, and that if that becomes full and there is still either excess glucose or fat left that the glucose will be made into triglycerides and stored, and fat would also be stored because it is not needed for fuel at the time.

In the absence of elevated blood glucose and insulin that the dietary fat would be utilized as fuel and less likely to be stored since there is not much insulin to force it into storage, but there is a mechanism, that I cannot recall right now, by which the body can store dietary fat without the use of insulin, but I"d have to go look it up for details. Hence too much fat in excess of fuel needs CAN be, but is not often, stored as body fat in the absence of elevated glucose/insulin.

So mostly no, but it's possible.

clackley 02-19-2014 06:38 AM

I think one of the articles that Mistizoom shared described the process of which you speak. The problem was that it is still unclear if fat storage is actually possible. At least to me, with my very limited ability to understand.

And again, it is never 100% clear cut because all the science (well most of it) is framed in a glucose burning model.

Makes me want to go back to school!

metqa 02-19-2014 07:44 AM

Hey, I found some time to look up some links. this one has a pretty good laymens description:

Quote:

[...] So how does the body store fat while in ketosis. It does it with the use of acylation-stimulating protein which I will call ASP from now on. ASP stores fat without the use of insulin. If you eat more than your body needs then ASP is used to store the unneeded fat even while your insulin level is in the dirt. The human body operates with the goal of survival and if you give it unneeded calories it will attempt to hold onto them for later use. The benefit of a low-carb/ketogenic diet is it’s ability to lower insulin, increase leptin sensitivity which causes better management of your hunger levels. This system works great with lower insulin until you get pretty lean. That’s when the body tells you to eat more due to lowered leptin levels.
In essence if you eat in excess of your bodies fuel needs, it is possible and likely that it will be stored as body fat. That fuel need will be dependent upon exercise, gluconeogenisis for making blood glucose and hence the need for lower carbs, and your body's metabolism in general ( more muscle burns more energy, needs more fuel)

ETA: I take this to mean that on a low carbohydrate diet, you are reducing your fuel intake via carbohydrates and replacing some of it with fat, directly, but your body is also using some of that fat and protein in a separate process to provide blood glucose. So you are not just using your direct intake of fuel, but some of that is being used to create another fuel. Not so much of a deficit, but still a process that requires fat and protein.

One of the reasons I think the HCG thing is effective for folks is that it is barely a protein sparing modified fast with little dietary fat, and a large deficit so that the body must use the fat storage for fuel. I wonder if coupled with low carbohydrate ( as some leave out fruit and grain) if that spurs Gluconeogenesis as well, increasing the need for body fat as fuel. Hmm :confused:

HTH

clackley 02-19-2014 08:11 AM

Who is this guy? His explanation is very simplified. I also note that he is a calorie counter. If you look up ASP, it doesn't say what he is saying.

Acylation stimulating protein - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

He also seems to have jumped to a conclusion that asp stores dietary fat but it seems it is involved in stored body fat. Not the same thing.

International Journal of Obesity - Acylation stimulating protein stimulates insulin secretion

This stuff is beyond my comprehension but it does seem that the blogger that you linked has gotten it wrong on some level.

AnneK 02-19-2014 08:21 AM

This is a great question.

So lets say someone takes in mostly fat (above needed calories, enough to gain a few pounds) (by drinking fat or oils or eating butter) given they don't get diarrhea, will they still gain and store fat? Or will that fat be discarded.

I feel the same - I wish I could go back to school and become a scientist.

jem51 02-19-2014 09:23 AM

I don't have any science to refer to but it seems that you can gain from fat....it is strictly my observation.

In the past, I would say (parrot) that there is no mechanism for dietary fat to become body fat THEN I watched as my LC friends/relatives started drinking fat and artificially increasing it.....I came across those who started using CO to gain after becoming too thin, etc.
What I discovered was a world of peop who struggled and struggled and finally said, 'oh, but I feel so great that my weight no longer matters'.....still they struggled.
Let me point out that this is more women than men (that's why men write diet books).

That said, maybe, just maybe there's a CFL. No that's not a typo.

Our bodies need enough. Enough to keep things humming along properly. That's all.

When it comes to fat; find your own CFL...same as finding your CCL.

Unpopular idea, I know.

clackley 02-19-2014 09:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jem51 (Post 16806579)
I don't have any science to refer to but it seems that you can gain from fat....it is strictly my observation.

In the past, I would say (parrot) that there is no mechanism for dietary fat to become body fat THEN I watched as my LC friends/relatives started drinking fat and artificially increasing it.....I came across those who started using CO to gain after becoming too thin, etc.
What I discovered was a world of peop who struggled and struggled and finally said, 'oh, but I feel so great that my weight no longer matters'.....still they struggled.
Let me point out that this is more women than men (that's why men write diet books).

That said, maybe, just maybe there's a CFL. No that's not a typo.

Our bodies need enough. Enough to keep things humming along properly. That's all.

When it comes to fat; find your own CFL...same as finding your CCL.

Unpopular idea, I know.

Really appreciate your input. I would say that it would only be an unpopular opinion because there is not really a known mechanism to support it. It is also fraught with the other dietary choices. No one lives on dietary fat alone.

I also sense a rejection of the whole subject for some reason that appears to be personal observation. Or something else entirely different.:dunno: Maybe I am misunderstanding your message about feeling well and weight as something it doesn't mean?

ilsita 02-19-2014 10:06 AM

I recently watched a video from a woman who is an ex-skateboarder, a real athlete, who has been on the ketogenic diet for 4 years straight. In this one, she discussed her trials and errors with ketosis, as she found her way toward what works for her. She said that when she first started the ketogenic diet, she was under the impression that she could eat as much fat as she wanted and was really going for it -- guzzling fat all day. Despite the fact that she doesn't cheat, is an athlete, energetic, and spends hours in the gym every day, she found that she had gained six pounds over the span of a couple months.

So, that's some anecdotal evidence for the notion that the (some) body (bodies) will store fat from fat while in ketosis.

jem51 02-19-2014 10:12 AM

What I'm saying is that women say they'll trade feeling great for higher weight but continue to struggle with the weight issue....which means, to me, not really accepting higher weight and being unhappy about it.
Unhappy does not equate to feeling great, IMHO. Struggling is never fun.

The other thing is, one can still eat high fat without extreme.
Back in the day (remember), high fat meant 45-55%. Now LC'ers will scoff if you call yourself a LCHF follower at that range.

You don't have to be eating low fat at your critical fat level. They are not the same.

That's all. No need to read btw the lines.

I started EFGT a long time ago so no rejection, really, just observation.....which I think is important.

Mistizoom 02-19-2014 10:19 AM

I looked up a few article on ASP, and while it does appear to play a role in fat storage, it is certainly does not happen in isolation. There is an interplay of many factors that affect fat storage.

As clackley and I have both alluded to, the problem with many scientific studies, if they are done in vivo in animals, or in humans at all, is that the diet that is fed is nearly always a high carbohydrate diet. There are very, very few scientific studies that are done on keto-adapted individuals. So even when studies come up with a conclusion that seems to support or reject the hypotheses we hold, you always have to consider if the results would be the same in keto-adapted individuals. And while n=1 experiments are extremely popular on the net right now, they are not scientific evidence. But I have no problem with people doing "whatever works" for them owing to the lack of proper scientific support.

jem51 02-19-2014 10:26 AM

'Science' changes all the time. What is 'fact' today will not be tomorrow. So finding our own ratio is most important.

clackley 02-19-2014 02:01 PM

Jem51, you very clearly had a message and shared it. No need to read between the lines and I was simply trying to be polite. You clearly have your ideas and that is great but they didn't really apply to the subject at hand.

It also makes me wonder why a person who in not 'in favour' of a high fat, moderate protein, low carb woe is interested in the conversations of those that are?

clackley 02-19-2014 02:03 PM

I really look forward to the work that NuSi is doing and all the other brilliant scientists that are currently and in the future adding to our knowledge of nutrition. It is an exciting time to live!

cfine 02-19-2014 03:41 PM

I am so not a scientific sort of person but I get that guys emails(can't think of his name) his business is called "Smash the Fat." His experiments that he has done on himself are incredible, IMO. He ate a low carb, high fat(like around 5,000 calories oer day) diet for around 30 days. He gained like 2 pounds but lost inches. It was so interesting. Do you know who I am talking about, Clackley?

jem51 02-19-2014 04:05 PM

Oops, you're right. I was talking about eating fat relating to fat storage.
Sorry to intrude on your conversation.

I am LC and have been for a very long time. I have tried many reduced carb plans and sometimes eat LC bread or legumes but my carbs are never high.

I also am a huge fan of the fat fast.

clackley 02-19-2014 04:28 PM

Not sure I know who he is but there is lots of stories like this. The thing that I want to understand is the how and why. Clearly people demonstrate that it happens but just what is the physiological mechanism? What is the scientific explanation?

clackley 02-19-2014 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilsita (Post 16806656)
I recently watched a video from a woman who is an ex-skateboarder, a real athlete, who has been on the ketogenic diet for 4 years straight. In this one, she discussed her trials and errors with ketosis, as she found her way toward what works for her. She said that when she first started the ketogenic diet, she was under the impression that she could eat as much fat as she wanted and was really going for it -- guzzling fat all day. Despite the fact that she doesn't cheat, is an athlete, energetic, and spends hours in the gym every day, she found that she had gained six pounds over the span of a couple months.

So, that's some anecdotal evidence for the notion that the (some) body (bodies) will store fat from fat while in ketosis.

Only if we knew what else she was consuming. If it was only dietary fat.... And maybe even vlc and moderated protein, then yes, we would have a case but do we know what else she was consuming?

It needs more info to be used as an example and it still doesn't explain how this would happen.

Margee 02-19-2014 05:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilsita (Post 16806656)
I recently watched a video from a woman who is an ex-skateboarder, a real athlete, who has been on the ketogenic diet for 4 years straight. In this one, she discussed her trials and errors with ketosis, as she found her way toward what works for her. She said that when she first started the ketogenic diet, she was under the impression that she could eat as much fat as she wanted and was really going for it -- guzzling fat all day. Despite the fact that she doesn't cheat, is an athlete, energetic, and spends hours in the gym every day, she found that she had gained six pounds over the span of a couple months.

So, that's some anecdotal evidence for the notion that the (some) body (bodies) will store fat from fat while in ketosis.

This a very good because it's exactly what I was thinking. For instance, I started this 'program' 3 weeks ago. I had sugar cravings up to 'ying-yang'!! I always remember Dr. Atkins's first book when he stated that you would kill the sugar cravings by eating as much fat as possible. He said it would normally take about 4 days and the cravings would be lifted greatly.

So for the last three weeks I have eaten pounds of bacon, butter, eggs, cheese, coconut oil, avocado's, etc...I mean pounds of it!! I had a 'fat fest' and I loved every minute of it!! :jumpjoy:

I actually can't believe it but I lost 6 pounds. :dunno:

Now from reading above, I am going to surmise that I will NOT be able to carry on like this because I will probably not lose the weight that I want to lose.

Starting tomorrow, I will really watch how much fat, protein and carbs I eat.

Do you think I'm on the right track? *hugs* to all

clackley 02-19-2014 05:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Margee (Post 16807164)
This a very good because it's exactly what I was thinking. For instance, I started this 'program' 3 weeks ago. I had sugar cravings up to 'ying-yang'!! I always remember Dr. Atkins's first book when he stated that you would kill the sugar cravings by eating as much fat as possible. He said it would normally take about 4 days and the cravings would be lifted greatly.

So for the last three weeks I have eaten pounds of bacon, butter, eggs, cheese, coconut oil, avocado's, etc...I mean pounds of it!! I had a 'fat fest' and I loved every minute of it!! :jumpjoy:

I actually can't believe it but I lost 6 pounds. :dunno:

Now from reading above, I am going to surmise that I will NOT be able to carry on like this because I will probably not lose the weight that I want to lose.

Starting tomorrow, I will really watch how much fat, protein and carbs I eat.

Do you think I'm on the right track? *hugs* to all

But you know that you were/are also consuming a lot of protein as well as fat?

Mistizoom 02-19-2014 06:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Margee (Post 16807164)
This a very good because it's exactly what I was thinking. For instance, I started this 'program' 3 weeks ago. I had sugar cravings up to 'ying-yang'!! I always remember Dr. Atkins's first book when he stated that you would kill the sugar cravings by eating as much fat as possible. He said it would normally take about 4 days and the cravings would be lifted greatly.

So for the last three weeks I have eaten pounds of bacon, butter, eggs, cheese, coconut oil, avocado's, etc...I mean pounds of it!! I had a 'fat fest' and I loved every minute of it!! :jumpjoy:

I actually can't believe it but I lost 6 pounds. :dunno:

Now from reading above, I am going to surmise that I will NOT be able to carry on like this because I will probably not lose the weight that I want to lose.

Starting tomorrow, I will really watch how much fat, protein and carbs I eat.

Do you think I'm on the right track? *hugs* to all

Margee, I think you should keep doing what is working for you, until it stops working for you. If you are just beginning low carb eating, getting into ketosis is the most important thing. It sounds like you have done that. After that, start listening to your hunger signals. Eat when you are hungry and don't eat when you aren't hungry. If you find that stops working, then you may need to tweak your macronutrients (fat, protein, carbs) but why worry about that if you don't need to at this point?

metqa 02-19-2014 06:16 PM

Hmm, Seems I got a bogus source. I wish I could find my old data, Thanks for clarifying the misinformation, but even it that's not exactly it, I did learn at some point that the body can store dietary fat as body fat, I'm just not sure exactly how it does it. I know some mechanisms cause fat cells to grow and increase their holding volume and prevent release but it may be pathological. I'm going to shut up now until i have something valid to add. :laugh:

Margee 02-19-2014 06:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by clackley (Post 16807199)
But you know that you were/are also consuming a lot of protein as well as fat?

Yes, I do recognize that now clackly!! I guess I just had to do this to kill off the horrible carb cravings I was back into for the last year. Thank you for this reminder!! I'm going to sit here and read and read until I learn the whole concept of this!! I've been really researching this for the past 4 weeks and today I found this site and I'm just so excited to meet all of you!! *hug*

Margee 02-19-2014 06:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mistizoom (Post 16807204)
Margee, I think you should keep doing what is working for you, until it stops working for you. If you are just beginning low carb eating, getting into ketosis is the most important thing. It sounds like you have done that. After that, start listening to your hunger signals. Eat when you are hungry and don't eat when you aren't hungry. If you find that stops working, then you may need to tweak your macronutrients (fat, protein, carbs) but why worry about that if you don't need to at this point?

You could be right Mistizzom! I am going to cut down a bit this week... but if I get hungry, I am going to eat a piece of cheese, bacon or whatever to tide me over.... I can't wait to look at the recipe section!!

*hug*


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