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Old 02-15-2014, 11:50 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by SugarPop View Post
Wow...I haven't been here in awhile and I gotta be honest - I was perusing the nsames to see if I recognized anyone - mostly no. But, your name stood out (very clever) and I ended up clicking on your link and read...Wow, first of all good luck to you. Just be glad it's just months and not years getting back on track. Secondly...WOW, what a great doctor!!! Few and far between. Most wanna stick to the old food pyramid. Where do you live? I might need to move there...lol

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Hi SugarPop!

I love my screen name. I'm a pianist in real life. Well, when I'm not at my desk at work.

Thanks! I love my doc too. He's in Issaquah, WA in the Seattle area. Cathy/Clackley said something about Jimmy Moore posting paleo friendly docs, if you are ever looking for one.

People in the main lobby were telling me the link doesn't work. It does seem to go off line sometimes. It will probably come back to life.
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Old 02-15-2014, 12:03 PM   #92
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Key, thanks for the rundown on how you rect to MCT. It's great if I need unplugged, just hate the cramping and can't leave the house.

The link for your doctor doesn't work. There are lots with his name when I google. What area are you in?
I actually took about 3 tablespoons this morning, and I am fine! I bought capsules for my daughter since she had such a vile reaction to them and didn't like taking oil, but she won't take them either. I might use them for travelling.

Dr. Naiman at Virginia Mason Issaquah.
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Old 02-15-2014, 06:33 PM   #93
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KT, the link is working for me now. I love this man. I want to marry him. He makes it all simple and so understandable.
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Old 02-15-2014, 07:19 PM   #94
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Dr. Naiman is the best! He is so smart. He is an excellent doctor. I'm doing the exercises too.

On the diet front, today I am having SERIOUS appetite suppression. The 3 or maybe 4 tablespoons of MCT oil this morning really put me off my chow.

I had my BIG smoothie (red lettuce, frozen blueberries, and at the very end after liquefied, truvia blended on low to keep it from foaming). Then, I stirred some eggs into bone broth. I ate about half and had to dump it. I was just too full. I don't like bone broth, but I have dropped the vinegar and hot sauce to keep the nightshades and other elements out of this.

I did have kale krunch (I guess I won't stop until the last shipment is gone!) and some chocoperfection little bars. This is not very much food for me.

I'll post more about Seth Roberts. I think his oil trick is the thing operating the most on my appetite suppression now.
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Old 02-16-2014, 01:07 AM   #95
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OK, found it. Here is a previous post I made about Seth Roberts.

I still have not eaten since a snack this afternoon. It is 1 am. I swear, it is the MCT oil. This happened the last time I was taking 3-4 tablespoons per day. Appetite GONE. It can take weeks to start working, so if you decide to try it, you have to be patient.


= = =

On a more important note, oh my, you must listen to this! I found an episode of Seth Roberts on Jimmy Moore's show. Oh, I am so excited! He says if he were to put the book out today he would recommend butter and flax oil! He says his brain functions better on butter as measured by his performance on arithmetic, and he sleeps better with pork fat. So interesting. I just love him.

He eats roast beef with butter nose-clipped, LOL...

Anyway, it is important to take the butter or flax oil in between meals, not with food. I guess you guys know that; I'm just repeating because he eats his butter with roast beef, but for weight loss, I guess you shouldn't eat it with food.

Google:


506: British Paleo Physician Dr. Sarah Myhill And ‘Shangri-La Diet’ Author Seth Roberts

I skipped ahead to the second half where Seth Robert starts talking.
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Old 02-16-2014, 01:30 AM   #96
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Here is another summary:

Here is another tip: Seth Robert's strategy works; it is WEIRD it is so effective (see link below). I use unflavored MCT oil (made from coconut oil) because your body wants to burn, not store, this type of oil as fat and it gives you ketones for energy (there are studies to support this). Also, because the oil has no odor or flavor, it drops your fat set point because it "tricks" the brain into not detecting it with your sense of smell and you take in calories without triggering the desire to eat. He is a Berkeley professor of psychology; this is fascinating. This is explained in the link below.

The oil seems expensive but within a few weeks it knocks your appetite to near nothing, seriously. One teaspoon per day for the first week, then two, then three...no food or flavors one hour before and after the dose (I take it first thing in the morning, brush my teeth and have coffee one hour later). The cost of the oil will save you a ton of money in food that you no longer want to eat after a few weeks (some people take 6 weeks). Go slow at first; MCT oil causes cramping until you build the digestive enzymes. No more than 4 tablespoons per day when you finally build up to it. Here is the podcast; skip to half way through when Seth Roberts starts
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Old 02-16-2014, 07:11 AM   #97
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KT, the MCT suppresses my appetite when I can manage it. A 100 calories per T, it does add a lot of energy. Maybe I will start again using a teaspoon to start.

Has anyone figured out if Shiritaki noodles are resistant starch. I ate some yesterday. 1/2 packet with some asparagus and crumbled bacon. I made a sauce of 2T cream cheese. Very yummy with pink salt, garlic and pepper to season. Tasted like carbonara. Didn't knock me out of ketosis.

Happy Sunday.
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Old 02-17-2014, 04:36 PM   #98
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Last10 - I tried the S noodles at one point. They caused this heavy, uncomfortable feeling. I bought a ton of them, so maybe I just went too gung-ho (that is so me). I'm not sure what exactly they are.

Something struck me today while I was watching a Denise Minger video. I have to admit, I have not been much of a Denise Minger fan, but the paleo group I just joined is a book club, so I ordered her book.

Anyway, she talks about women and issues in losing weight on paleo. It is so true; there are two men in my group that have lost a whole person and are actually thin (I really mean it, they look like they have been thin all their lives) but their wife/girlfriend is still large and they are eating the same thing. She said something about women perhaps trying to eat more plant-based foods. Gosh, I think this is totally me. She is paleo; she said she eats fish and organ meats. Hmmm.....

It is so obviously hormonal in nature. I am beginning to get suspicious. What if the MCT oil is working not because of the Shangri-La shots, but because it is just plain not butter? I was using butter before and gaining weight on high fat low carb, but I didn't know about the Shangri-La method. Maybe both things are working. I don't know. I have noticed that I do better when I eat wild salmon vs. grass-fed beef or chicken. I think it is because it is anti-inflammatory.

Anyway, this is interesting.

Denise Minger: Death By Food Pyramid, Women Who Gain Weight on Paleo, and How to Spot a Fraud | Fat-Burning Man
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Old 02-18-2014, 08:39 AM   #99
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I had 2 1/2 tablespoons of MCT oil last night and slept like a baby!

I had 2 1/2 tablespoons yesterday morning and this morning. My appetite was knocked out all day yesterday.

I think I've got my formula on. I have to admit, I am still eating the kale chips and a couple of those small chocoperfection bars. When I do eat my meals, I eat them plain, no fat added.

Is coconut oil magic? I don't know. MCT oil is the flavorless version of that. I saw a video Josh Axe posted on FB yesterday - 8 reasons to use it. It was interesting.
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Old 02-18-2014, 09:00 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by Key Tones View Post
I had 2 1/2 tablespoons of MCT oil last night and slept like a baby!

I had 2 1/2 tablespoons yesterday morning and this morning. My appetite was knocked out all day yesterday.

I think I've got my formula on. I have to admit, I am still eating the kale chips and a couple of those small chocoperfection bars. When I do eat my meals, I eat them plain, no fat added.

Is coconut oil magic? I don't know. MCT oil is the flavorless version of that. I saw a video Josh Axe posted on FB yesterday - 8 reasons to use it. It was interesting.
I am pretty sure that coconut oil is about 60% mct and the balance is long chain trys. Mct is just medium chain trys.

Mct oils are pretty amazing. I have my morning coffee (bullet proof) with coconut oil, mct oil, a pat of butter and hwc - all blended up. It will keep my appetite at bay for many hours. I usually have my first solid food around 1 or 2. There is a bit of calculation here because I want to have an appetite for dinner but I don't want to eat too late.

I frequently have 2 bpc and then don't eat solid food until dinner time. It is really quite wonderful.
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Old 02-18-2014, 10:32 AM   #101
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Cathy - that is so cool! Thanks for sharing!!! I have seen the bulletproof coffee Asprey guy, but I haven't looked into the coffee. Between the chocoperfection, kale krunch, and MCT oil, netrition has all my budget for food extras, LOL...(they carry all the stuff I'm using, I don't know why kale krunch does not light up, but they don't carry Bob's Redmill resistant starch--they are going to get it in they say).

I just can't believe I slept so well on the MCT oil! I have been waking up at 4 am with a pounding heart. I know for sure I have read this means low carb adrenal stress. I think I just plain haven't been able to get into fat burning mode while sleeping for some reason. I am curious if this is going to bring down my fasting glucose as well. Perhaps there won't be this emergency needs glucose signal going off in the middle of the night anymore.

I am super-pleased; I'm down 9 pounds from my high high weight in January already. My weight loss picked up this week; I am sure it is the MCT oil. When does weight loss actually pick up in week 4? (I started cutting back before I started this thread - I actually was up to 224, ugh).

I was super-sad to look at the honeybadgers thread. Some of them have moved to facebook and were talking about how they went backwards. I really thought I had made progress regardless what happened at year-end, but I was WRONG. I was only 213 in January 2013! We had a spreadsheet in teh honeybadgers thread, and I had posted my weight, oh my GOSH I can't believe it. Anyway, I am only 2 pounds up from that now, so I feel better.

I have my sights set on some cosmetic and skin removal surgery to help get me through this. I want to get that nose job my mom promised me when I was a teenager that never happened (I have the family nose on mother's side, it is awful, mine is much flatter than my mom's). I have picked my surgeon already, he gets patients from all over the world. He is in New York, he is the best of the best.

I really need the apron removed from the front, but oddly, the place where all my fat is is actually hips and thighs, but so far that looks OK. If I get to goal, I will need a hip and thigh lift too. I am totally going to get it if I possibly can. I haven't researched skin removal surgeons yet, but I am totally going to find the best when I am ready.
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Old 02-18-2014, 09:31 PM   #102
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Gonna be checking in on this thread. I'm in school now, so I have to limit my computer time...but this thread I'll do.
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Old 02-19-2014, 06:10 AM   #103
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Old 02-19-2014, 09:41 AM   #104
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KT, correct me if I'm wrong, but when Seth wrote Shangrila wasn't it ANY flavorless oil?
AND there was plenty of success...but, of course, cals are reduced quite a bit when only consuming a T of oil occasionally.

Also, I believe this is a quick way to reach ketosis....like fat fast....except probably easier since there is no stimulation of taste.

Seth wrote something about not having hunger and not enjoying the lack of highs/lows and how it felt good to feel hunger again.
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Old 02-19-2014, 11:02 AM   #105
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KT, correct me if I'm wrong, but when Seth wrote Shangrila wasn't it ANY flavorless oil?
AND there was plenty of success...but, of course, cals are reduced quite a bit when only consuming a T of oil occasionally.

Also, I believe this is a quick way to reach ketosis....like fat fast....except probably easier since there is no stimulation of taste.

Seth wrote something about not having hunger and not enjoying the lack of highs/lows and how it felt good to feel hunger again.
Indeed - any flavorless oil. His suggestion is extra light virgin olive oil (I find it is too thick and harder to take for this reason). In fact, he has a number of followers that actually nose-clip so that they cannot taste whatever food they are eating, or whatever oil they are using. Seth nose-clips butter taken with either beef or rolled up in nori now (I read on his blog). The reason he uses butter is that he measured his brain function and found he can compute math problems more quickly on butter (I think vs. the olive oil or flax).

Nose-clipping: It is like losing your appetite when you have a bad cold because you cannot taste anything. It is in the sense of smell.

I bought a pair of swimmers clips. After a while, you feel a little mental doing that.

Regarding the MCT oil, I think it really might be wiping out bad gut bacteria. The resistant starch seems to be causing a lot less problems as soon as I ramped up the MCT oil. Interesting effect. Synergistic I think, but it takes a long, long while to build up both of these things, at least in my case. I can't believe the effect is just Shangri-La, but who knows.

Check out this success story.


Homepage of Alex Chernavsky




Shangri-La Diet: Two Years of Data



Graph depicts two years of pre-diet baseline, followed by two years on the Shangri-La diet.


Two-year pre-diet baseline: Sept. 30, 2007 to Oct. 21, 2009

Shangri-La diet: Oct. 22, 2009 to Nov. 14, 2011 (just over two years)

Weight immediately prior to start of diet (ten-day avg.): 222.4 lbs. (100.9 kg.)

Weight as of Nov. 14, 2011 (ten-day avg.): 193.9 lbs. (88.0 kg.)

Total weight lost during this period: Approx. 28.5 lbs. (12.9 kg.)

Summary

I lost weight by following an unusual but effective diet that was developed by psychologist Seth Roberts, professor emeritus at the University of California at Berkeley and now based at Tsinghua University in China. Briefly, the Shangri-La diet involves appetite suppression via the ingestion of flavorless calories in the form of oil and/or sugar water. The diet is described in a book written by Roberts. A shorter summary may be found here. See also here and here.

Here is how Wikipedia describes the putative mechanism behind the diet:

“Roberts’ diet is based on the fundamental principle of a set point—the weight which, according to Roberts, a person’s brain strives to maintain. When actual weight is below the set point, appetite increases; when actual weight is above the set point, appetite decreases. Furthermore, eating certain foods can raise or lower the set point. Foods that have a strong flavor-calorie relationship (such as fast food or donuts) raise the set point, whereas bland foods which are slowly digested (like extra-light olive oil or fructose mixed with water) lower the set point. Roberts states that the diet is based upon connecting two unconnected fields: weight control and associative learning. Because of this, the research behind the diet is from multiple fields, ranging from Pavlovian psychology to physiology to rat psychology.”
Background

I first heard of the Shangri-La diet when I read this article in the New York Times back in September, 2005. The diet seemed so bizarre that the idea of it stuck with me—until, about four years later, I finally decided to try it.

Being 5’ 10” tall and weighing 222 lbs. (1.8 m / 100.7 kg.), I wanted to lose weight, and I was looking for a weight-loss plan that would satisfy the following five criteria:

It wouldn’t require me to change the types of foods that I eat. I’m a vegan for ethical reasons, and I did not want to stray from that philosophy. (Note, for example, that it’s very difficult to eat a low-carbohydrate diet without consuming animal products.)

The diet wouldn’t depend on willpower, at least not heavily. Knowing myself, I would not be able to adhere to a diet that could be sustained only by exerting an iron will (which is, essentially, almost all weight-loss diets).
The diet did not have any obvious characteristics that might make you think that it would be harmful to your health.

The diet wouldn’t require regular exercise. Unfortunately, I’ve disliked exercise my whole life, and I’ve never been able to maintain a regular exercise regimen for more than a few months.

The diet could be continued indefinitely.

The Shangri-La diet met all five criteria, so I tried it—to some success.

My current routine

I start the day with two large mugs of coffee with stevia (sugar substitute) and some soy creamer. Around noon, I take a heaping tablespoon of Spectrum virgin coconut oil (it’s a solid at room temperature). I eat it with my nose pinched shut, so that I don’t taste it. I follow it immediately with a small glass of water. About an hour later, I take four tablespoons of flaxseed oil (I use Spectrum Organic, without added lignans), followed by a few gulps of water from a drinking fountain. I do not pinch my nose shut for the flaxseed oil. I eat a large dinner around 7:00 PM, and I have a substantial snack (really, it’s more of a second meal) around 10:00 PM. I don’t eat dessert after dinner, but my snack usually ends with a piece of cake or pie, a chocolate bar, or some cookies. All the food I eat is always vegan. I don’t eat between the two meals. About once per week, I eat a large breakfast (more about this below).

The coconut oil is a fairly recent addition to my diet regimen, as of May 2011. I added it because I noticed that my weight was slowly creeping upwards. In email correspondence with Professor Roberts, he suggested adding more flavorless calories to my diet. I originally took a second heaping tablespoon in the afternoon, but I noticed that doing so reduced my enjoyment of dinner, so I stopped the afternoon dose.

I don’t keep track of calorie counts, but my dinner is larger now than it used to be before I started the diet. To give some sense of the size, at a Thai restaurant I typically eat a bowl of soup, two fresh vegetable spring rolls, and an entrée with vegetables and tofu. My 10 o’clock snack is about half as large, or maybe a bit more than half. I feel quite full at the end of the dinner and following the snack.

Routine at the start of the diet

For the first two months or so, I used extra-light olive oil instead of flaxseed oil, and I would follow the olive oil with a 16 oz. glass of sugar water (9 teaspoons of sugar dissolved in lukewarm water). I would sip the water slowly, over the course of about an hour. One day I didn’t have any sugar, and I noticed that my appetite was sufficiently suppressed by the olive oil alone. Soon after, I tried flaxseed oil and found it comparable to the olive oil. I stayed with the flaxseed oil because of its possible health benefits.

Other thoughts

The first few days I tried the diet, I really didn’t experience much of a reduction in my appetite. I did manage to avoid eating until dinner-time, but I had a hard time of it. I was discouraged and started to think that the diet wouldn’t work for me. However, I did continue it, and I started drinking the water more slowly (I had initially gulped it down quickly). Taking many sips over an hour seemed to do the trick.

On Seth Roberts’s home page, a dieter named Kathy Sierra wrote, “Within three days, I was actually forgetting to eat”. I never experienced such a profound effect. The diet certainly reduced my hunger to the point where my appetite was manageable, but I would still experience some “break-through” hunger, especially if I felt bored or stressed. Also, seeing (or, particularly, smelling) appetizing food would bring a temporary wave of hunger. I find it very difficult to be around other people when they are eating lunch.

When I first started the diet, I noticed that I enjoyed my dinner quite a bit more than usual. This effect continues to this day. I also eat guilt-free, in the sense that I don’t need to worry about controlling the portion size or stopping before I’m fully satiated. I eat as much as I want. On days that I eat breakfast or lunch, my dinner is much less enjoyable than usual.

Other Shangri-La dieters have reported a reduction in their cravings for junk food. I have not found that to be the case. I’m quite fond of foods with strong, spicy flavors, and I continue to eat things like spiced nacho chips, jalapeño-flavored almonds, and chocolate with chilis. I don’t snack between my two meals.

In certain circumstances, I’m forced to eat lunch, as when there is a family function that I need to attend, or when a meeting at work takes place over a meal. Luckily, though, such events typically happen less than once per month. When I know in advance that I will be eating lunch, I don’t take the flaxseed oil or coconut fat.

I’ve experimented with other oils. Udo’s DHA oil blend doesn’t work very well, possibly because it has a fairly strong nutty flavor. Total EFA (vegan) from Health from the Sun worked as well as the regular flaxseed oil from Spectrum.

My advice to those who would try this diet is to stick with it for at least a few weeks, even if you don’t experience dramatic appetite suppression from the start. Try varying some of the parameters (amount or type of oil, amount of sugar water, speed with which you consume it, etc.) to see if you can hit upon the right combination.

Remaining concerns

My initial goal weight was 175 lbs. (79 kg.), but I was not able to achieve that goal. Nevertheless, I’m reasonably happy with the outcome, especially given the relative ease with which I was able to lose weight. If I were younger and single (I’m 46 years old and married), I would probably try harder to lose the remaining twenty pounds.

The variability in my weight has increased over time, possibly because I did not eat breakfast at all for the first eight or nine months that I was on the diet. I now eat a large breakfast once (or, sometimes, twice) per week, usually on my days off from work. When I eat breakfast, I usually do not take the coconut fat or flax oil on that day.

Perhaps the biggest drawback to the diet is that I don’t eat with my colleagues at work anymore. Lunchtime was an opportunity to relax, socialize, and catch-up on events. I can’t sit with people while they eat—it’s too difficult for me—so I typically work right through lunch. (On the plus side, though, I get more work done and save money that would have been spent on food.)

Overall impressions

I am certainly glad that I encountered the Shangri-La diet, and I’m grateful to Seth Roberts for having invented it. Losing 28 lbs. / 13 kg.—and keeping it off for two years—is no small accomplishment (for me, anyway). I plan on continuing with this diet indefinitely.

Last edited by Key Tones; 02-19-2014 at 11:05 AM..
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Old 02-19-2014, 11:16 AM   #106
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Today's Plan:

Last night, before bed, 2 tablespoons MCT Oil

B: upon waking, MCT Oil, 2 tablespoons (I upped my dose with no side effects, finally!!!) no brushing teeth or any flavors for one full hour

Coffee w/unsweetened coconut milk and Truvia (this stuff is the bomb - now made with erythritol - I'm going to try to make my own, but I suspect it won't taste the same - Truvia smells like vanilla).

Late Morning:
Smoothie
2 cups spinach (work blender is cheap and handles spinach well)
1 cup frozen blueberries
1 tablespoon of Bob's Redmill resistant starch
1 tablespoon chia seeds
Truvia
Add water, blend


Lunch:
3 ounces of shrimp frozen bottom of bowl
heaping pile of normandy frozen veg on top
microwave 4 min or more, stir salty shrimp water over veg to flavor it up

Dinner:

2 cups of home-made broth with meat
Decaf with unsweetened almond milk
And another smoothie (see lunch)
Egg bake in avocado (place egg into the avocado halves), sprinkle with bacon, red pepper, and spices (note: this breaks the Guyenet rule of not mixing fat with food, so I will scoop out the egg and eat it first, then eat the avocado).

2 small chocoperfection bars

Supplements:
fermented cod liver oil capsules
krill oil capsule
vitamin d
vitamin k2
vitamin b12
grass-fed liver tablets

Principals followed today:

Seth Roberts: Flavorless oil in flavorless window for appetite suppression.

Stephan Guyenet: Paleo foods, reduce the caloric density of the foods you are eating (smoothie had plenty of water, bone broth - same thing), don't snack, get your omega 3. Eat fat, but don't mix it with your food (I like to go with MCT oil plain, unsalted butter in coffee, or a LOT of almond milk in coffee, or some coconut milk in coffee).

NK - Phinney/Volek: Eat plenty of salted, home-made broth, eat plenty of non-starchy vegetables and a moderate amount of low carb fruit. Low carb, moderate protein, high fat but throttle back the fat for weight loss, add more fat for maintenance.

BTW, the bone broth knocks out my appetite as well, probably because I don't like it much. It tends to put me off eating for the rest of the evening

If I lose my appetite at any time today, which happens a lot on this higher dose of MCT oil, I will be skipping meal(s) listed above. I'll report back if I feel this way.

Last edited by Key Tones; 02-19-2014 at 11:20 AM..
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Old 02-19-2014, 11:17 AM   #107
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Gonna be checking in on this thread. I'm in school now, so I have to limit my computer time...but this thread I'll do.
Hi, clackey.
B
Hi SugarPop! Thanks for the compliment!!!
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Old 02-20-2014, 06:10 PM   #108
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I don't have much of an appetite today! Woot! I have the ketosis metal mouth big time today. The big doses of MCT oil from yesterday kicked in HARD today. I have only had the smoothie today so far and some coconut milk coffee. It is after 6 pm here.

Also, I watched Chris Kresser on Dr. Oz. There was another guest, not sure who, where Dr. Oz demonstrated the plate. I can see I am overdoing it on the blueberries, so I am kicking it down a notch today on the low-carb fruit. I'm a visual learner, I guess.

Good grief, the egg baked into an avocado last night was incredibly good! A cooked avocado takes on this big nutty flavor! I sprinkled with red pepper, salt, and marjoram. Yum!!!!

Today:

B: MCT Oil (2 tablespoons)

Late Morning: Smoothie--Moderately packed the blender 3/4 full with spinach, just a garnish of frozen blueberries in the bottom, heaping teaspoon of resistant starch, blend with water.

Lunch: Not hungry. Coconut milk with instant coffee and Truvia.

D: Not sure yet, perhaps salmon and red lettuce smoothie, bone broth

Bedtime: MCT oil (at least 2 tablespoons)


Supplements:
fermented cod liver oil capsules
krill oil capsule
vitamin d
vitamin k2 (M-7)
vitamin b12
grass-fed liver tablets


Principals followed today
:

Seth Roberts: Flavorless oil in flavorless window for appetite suppression (MCT oil is amazing for this)

Stephan Guyenet: Paleo foods, reduce the caloric density of the foods you are eating (smoothie had plenty of water, bone broth - same thing), don't snack, get your omega 3. Eat fat, but don't mix it with your food (I like to go with MCT oil plain, unsalted butter in coffee, or a LOT of almond milk in coffee, or some coconut milk in coffee).

NK - Phinney/Volek: Eat plenty of salted, home-made broth, eat plenty of non-starchy vegetables and a moderate amount of low carb fruit. Low carb, moderate protein, high fat but throttle back the fat for weight loss, add more fat for maintenance.

Denise Minger: If you're a female having difficulty losing weight on paleo, there may be a hormonal reason for this. Try eating more plant foods and seafood rather than animal foods.

Chris Kresser: Eat a paleo diet customized to you. For weight loss, eat your foods in an eight hour window and fast the rest of the day. Using coconut oil outside these hours does not disrupt the intermittent fast (I use MCT oil). If blood glucose issues, keep carbohydrates under 50 grams per day.

Last edited by Key Tones; 02-20-2014 at 06:23 PM..
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Old 02-21-2014, 08:24 PM   #109
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My appetite was wiped out again today too, even more so than yesterday. I will admit to feeling a bit sick today. Too much fat maybe. I suspect the avocados.

I stayed up watching the Olympics last night and ended up going to bed late. I didn't want to take my eyes of the TV, so instead of making dinner, I had a little dark chocolate, and a few small bars of chocoperfection, that keeps me up, I will never learn. Avocado too - I think that put me over the edge. I was not feeling well after that. Nonetheless, I took my MCT oil at bedtime.

I guess yesterday turned out to be a fat fast. I barely got in any protein at all.

Today, same thing. I woke up, had MCT oil (only 1 tablespoon, since the avocado upset me from the night before). Smoothie with 4 raw egg yolks (dumped the whites), lots of red lettuce, garnish with berries, gelatin, Truvia, and a heaping teaspoon of resistant starch. I took 4 cod liver oil capsules, vitamin d3, MK-7 (k2), and a probiotic with the smoothie.

I had a large coffee mug full of unsweetened coconut milk (the kind in cartons in the refrigerated section), and mixed in some decaffeinated coffee and Truvia twice today. I just wanted to drink something quick and go shopping because there is a brand new Trader Joes that just opened down the street.

I am doing so well with no appetite I don't feel like getting into protein, I think it will trigger an appetite. I'll think about it, but it is already 8:20 pm, and I am not hungry and don't feel like cooking anything.

I am concerned about the coconut milk having too many additives with the calcium. I'm going to try the Trader Joes shelf coconut milk. I've read calcium supplementation actually can be bad for your health.

I am now wondering if I can just do a fat fast every other day now? This is so WERID. There is something magical about the coconut milk.

No dark chocolate, chocoperfection, kale chips today. I didn't feel like any bone broth (I'm going to have to dump it) and the idea of the liver tablets are turning my stomach. I noticed that there is some relief in using Truvia intermittently throughout the day. I think the few carbs it has is helpful somehow.


Principals followed today? I don't know. I'm just plain not hungry. I have a feeling that I have maybe overloaded myself with minerals and micronutrients because nothing sounds good. I have such strong metal mouth going, all day today.

Last edited by Key Tones; 02-21-2014 at 08:33 PM..
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Old 02-22-2014, 05:28 AM   #110
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K.T., you want to be sure to be filling your basic protein needs most days because of the high potential of losing lean body mass. At least, that is my understanding.

Last summer (which seems sooooo long ago), I grilled halved avocados and they were amazing! Can't wait to be able to do that again!!

Question: how do you account for your mct oil? I mean do you count the fat content as part of your daily plan?
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Old 02-22-2014, 09:10 AM   #111
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K.T., you want to be sure to be filling your basic protein needs most days because of the high potential of losing lean body mass. At least, that is my understanding.

Last summer (which seems sooooo long ago), I grilled halved avocados and they were amazing! Can't wait to be able to do that again!!

Question: how do you account for your mct oil? I mean do you count the fat content as part of your daily plan?
Thanks for looking in on me Cathy! I know you know I want weight loss so badly I might go off the tracks again. I appreciate it, I really do.

Indeed, I know you are right. I decided I overloaded myself with fat and skipped the MCT oil last night. I woke up early (MCT oil I think definitely helps me sleep, which is counterintuitive) and a bit hungry, not terrible, so I decided to have some salmon for breakfast along with my green smoothie. I forgot the raw egg yolks again. I'll have to put a sticky note out! I'm going with raw egg yolks instead of multivitamins. I like to crack the egg yolks into the glass and pour my smoothie in and stir to keep my blender clean (I just blend greens and blueberries so I can simply rinse so it is OK for the next smoothie without having to sterilize the blender, I am paranoid).

Anyway, I am trying to figure out what my formula is to set off spontaneous intermittent fasting. It is looking like going low protein is key. I might eat the salmon just every other day. Sometimes I wonder if I am going to end up on some JUDDD formula via my own experimenting.

I did load up everything into an online food tracker at the start. I did put the MCT oil in. It has 8 calories per gram instead of 9, so I had to adjust it a bit. Also, note, I am blending a heck of a lot of greens in the vitamix. I am taking my salad with no dressing. Fat-free salads gives me leeway to take the oil shots. The avocado is something I am planning to drop since I am having coconut milk during the day now and it knocks my appetite down a lot more than avocado, which makes no sense to me. Avocado has fiber and minerals - ?. I had tried coconut oil in the past and decided I was sensitive to it, but I just didn't give myself time to adjust.

I will use the coconut milk instead of almond milk too. I had been using the almond milk, but again, no comparison, coconut milk knocks down appetite way more than almond milk. I noticed I didn't even think about the chocolate yesterday when I swapped the coconut milk for almond. I have a big stock of almond milk, though, so it will be a while before I am full-force on this.

I am very aware that the reason the coconut milk might be working is again a Seth Roberts principal. I've never used it much before (I have given up after a few cartons in on and off), but I have used almond milk and avocado extensively. I could end up in a position where the coconut milk no longer works once my brain makes the calorie association with the coconut flavor. If it works over the long term, then I will just go with coconut is magic, LOL.

I'm sure I had too much fat with the MCT oil, coconut milk, and avocado. I just had some avocado left over. I did the egg baked into the avocado with red pepper and marjoram, oh my GOSH it was good!!! The avocado took on this amazing nutty flavor, I am sure it is the same nutty flavor grilled.

I think the MCT oil is helping my thinking. I really believe I am thinking more clearly than I have in a long time. My energy is up too. I still haven't built up to standing all day at work with the stand-up work station (see my new thread linked below in the paleo forum).

Last edited by Key Tones; 02-22-2014 at 09:15 AM..
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Old 02-22-2014, 11:15 AM   #112
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You are so smart, K.T. - I am certain, you know what you are doing. I sometimes make comments because there may be others who don't have all the information.

I asked about the mct oil because I take mine as a supplement along with fish oil. They both contain oil and are therefore food. I had to convince myself that it counted in my tracking - it was begrudgingly. Those 2 don't make a big difference but coconut oil does because of the volume. I use 1 - 2 tbsp. per day.
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Old 02-22-2014, 11:33 AM   #113
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I think almond milk is a great product and use it frequently in cooking. My long time favorite is 'gluc pudding'. which is glucomannan powder mixed into almond milk with a bit of sweetener and flavouring. Very good on a number of levels.
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Old 02-22-2014, 04:46 PM   #114
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Last10 - I tried the S noodles at one point. They caused this heavy, uncomfortable feeling. I bought a ton of them, so maybe I just went too gung-ho (that is so me). I'm not sure what exactly they are.

Something struck me today while I was watching a Denise Minger video. I have to admit, I have not been much of a Denise Minger fan, but the paleo group I just joined is a book club, so I ordered her book.

Anyway, she talks about women and issues in losing weight on paleo. It is so true; there are two men in my group that have lost a whole person and are actually thin (I really mean it, they look like they have been thin all their lives) but their wife/girlfriend is still large and they are eating the same thing. She said something about women perhaps trying to eat more plant-based foods. Gosh, I think this is totally me. She is paleo; she said she eats fish and organ meats. Hmmm.....

It is so obviously hormonal in nature. I am beginning to get suspicious. What if the MCT oil is working not because of the Shangri-La shots, but because it is just plain not butter? I was using butter before and gaining weight on high fat low carb, but I didn't know about the Shangri-La method. Maybe both things are working. I don't know. I have noticed that I do better when I eat wild salmon vs. grass-fed beef or chicken. I think it is because it is anti-inflammatory.

Anyway, this is interesting.

Denise Minger: Death By Food Pyramid, Women Who Gain Weight on Paleo, and How to Spot a Fraud | Fat-Burning Man

Hi

I gain on chicken and beef if I eat too much. I def lose on wild salmon:
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Old 02-22-2014, 11:21 PM   #115
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Hi Peace!

The salmon seems to be working quite well! After having it for breakfast, I started planning my vacation, which I find very taxing. I looked up, and it was after 10, and I hadn't eaten all day. I was dehydrated too; I forgot to drink water as well. I just made two smoothies with coconut milk to catch up, and I remembered the egg yolks this time.

Another spontaneous fast.

Cathy, I do love almond milk! I'll whip something up with the chia seeds and cocoa.

I'll have to run out and get more unsweetened coconut milk. I am so glad there is a Trader Joes down the street now, it makes life so easy for me.
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Old 02-24-2014, 09:01 AM   #116
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Oh my gosh, my weight loss has suddenly picked up - I lost another 3 pounds; that is 6 pounds in the last two weeks!!! I am sure it is the MCT oil, mostly - I take 4 tablespoons per day (2Tx2). I upped my dose. The other changes: stand up work station and switching to wild-caught salmon (no other meat except shrimp or other shellfish) and unsweetened coconut milk. I am still doing my green fat-free smoothies (leafy greens plus a small handful of berries plus resistant starch plus gelatin for anti-inflammatoy effect).

I forget to eat all the time because I just am not hungry at all. I allow one chocoperfection bar (the small) per day, if I remember it. I have been having wild-caught salmon for breakfast- just a half a palm-size, then egg yolks, and the greens in the vitamix probably provide a little protein since the vitamix breaks cellular membranes, plus the protein in the liver tablets.

Whew! 212 this morning. I am back at the 100 pounds lost mark.
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Old 02-24-2014, 09:56 AM   #117
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That is awesome! You are an inspiration K.T.!
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Old 02-24-2014, 10:38 AM   #118
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Thanks!

I have always thought I would have to do a dozen things or more at once for weight loss. The question is, what dozen things in combination works?

I think #1 is Shangri-La oil shots with MCT oil in flavorless one hour window on each side. Seth Roberts is the bomb. I do it at bedtime and when I wake up, because that is easiest; that way I only have to figure in a one hour flavorless window since I am sleeping during the window on the other side.

It works with or without carbs is the interesting thing. Both times (now and late last year) when I reached 4 tablespoons per day I experienced accelerated weight loss after already losing weight (I do push it and use 6 Tablespoons a couple days a week - on the weekends when I'm going to be home due to side effects). It takes a while to kick in is the thing, it doesn't happen right away.

It is like black magic...
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Old 02-24-2014, 11:16 AM   #119
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I can't remember if I posted this in this thread. Seth Roberts uses oil now for the Shangri-La Diet; he no longer uses sugar. This explains how the inner cave-man instincts are imbedded in us. The fat set-point is controlled by the FLAVOR of food! Flavorless calories (such as MCT oil or extra-light olive oil) tricks the system and lowers your fat set point and appetite vaporizes. You lose interest in food!

Indeed, a one pound box of chocolate really does raise the fat set point 10 pounds, I believe it! For me, it is chocolate ice cream. If I touch it, I freak and there is no end to my appetite.


FYI - Stephan Guyenet's low palatablility/low food reward recommendations operate on the same mechanism. Same theory, different approach.

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Old 02-28-2014, 11:54 AM   #120
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I am going to have to abandon NK. I cannot sleep at all. It has gotten to the point where I am awake until 4:30 am and have to get up at 5:30. I have even tried sleeping pills to no avail. Magnesium and melatonin are not helping.

I ate some of my daughter's rice crackers and the next night some hummus and slept like a baby. I am sorry, but this is insane. I am going to add back Japanese sweet potatoes to 100 to 150 grams per day and move back to the paleo board.

It seems like the more my appetite drops the less I am able to sleep. It is direct correlation.

I think I obviously have adrenal issues. It just isn't working for me. I am just too stressed out.

I called the doctor to let him know. He wants to prescribe glucophage, so be it. I don't care anymore. I am losing my mind.
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