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Old 01-01-2014, 08:21 AM   #1
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Nutritional Ketosis January Chat...

Happy New Year!!

Once again, I am copying and pasting a post that does a fairly good job of describing some of the aspects of nutritional ketosis. Remember that the overall message is to be 'well formulated' to the individual so protein, fat and carbohydrate requirements can be quite different between individuals. This is a place to start for beginners and good reference for the more practiced.

Quote:
Our goal is a healthy LC high fat macro and mandatory daily protein regimen resulting in a state of Nutritional Ketosis. Ideal ratios for fat range from about 65% to 85% of calories. Protein is kept moderate. Total carbs are 50g or less. The short version is: Eat your required protein grams, keep total carbs low and the rest of your calories are fat. This is not a very low calorie thread.

Protein
In his book, Dr. Phinney recommends 1.5-2.0g/kg reference weight for protein grams. Separately Dr. Phinney has said that he leans towards 1.0-1.5g/kg reference weight. Reference weight is the appropriate weight for your height. It is important to use the correct weight for the formula because overeating protein can interfere with weight loss. So use the right weight even if you have a higher intermediate goal weight.

The formula looks like this: (goal_weight/2.2)*1.5 = daily protein grams.

For example: Your goal weight is 150

(150/2.2)*1.5 = 102g protein a day.

Protein II
Use the 1.5g/kg from the published book as your start point. If you need to you can fall back to the 1.0-1.5g/kg range. See this post.
Fat
Most of your calories should come from fat.
Carbs
50g total carbs (not net) or less. Start low on carbs.
Calories
According to Dr. Phinney, an obese person burns about 30kCal per kg of weight and a moderately active adult close to their correct weight burns 35kCal per kg of weight. He attributes the difference, 30 to 35, to an obese person being more sedentary than a person at the right weight for their body.

From page 207 of The Art and Science of Low Carb Living:

"As an aside, the casual reader might protest that these energy expenditure numbers look pretty high. But for anyone that has worked with obese humans in a metabolic research ward, 30kcal per kg of actual body weight in the sedentary obese and 35 kcal/kg in the post-obese moderately active adult are actually quite conservative expenditure values."

For example: You are fat, your goal weight is 150 and right now you weigh 225.

225lb current calorie expenditure --> (225/2.2)*30 = 3068
150lb goal weight calorie expenditure --> (150/2.2)*35 = 2386
Calories II
How much should you eat? I don't know but it is probably not as little as you think. Use the formula to guestimate your current calorie expenditure and then start with 500 less calories. In the example above, that'd be a start point of about 2500 a day.

There are many health risks related to eating very low calories, like loss of lean body mass and metabolism down regulation, and it is hard to stick to a plan with very low calories. Very low calorie plans frequently result in binges which will wreck your efforts at NK. Start high and work down as needed but go down slowly. Panic is the enemy of success.
Macros
Macro ratios are a great tool to help you keep an eye on what you are doing but they can be very deceptive. 15% protein at 1500 calories is very different from 15% at 3000 calories. You can have great looking macros that are hiding terrible real numbers. Don't get stuck on macro percentages. Always check your protein grams to make sure you are eating to your goal.
Daily/Weekly Weigh-Ins
Do you weigh in daily or weekly? Totally up to you! I weigh in daily because I like the constant feedback. *BUT*, if you choose to do daily weigh-ins you have to accept that daily weights are a snapshot in time only. They are interesting data points but that is all and they are meaningless without the context of time. In other words, weigh-in daily if you want but pay attention to the trend not the individual snapshot of weight.
Tape Measure
You should measure yourself periodically. Knowing that you are losing inches can help keep you from wildly tweaking what you are doing when what you are doing is working even if the scale is saying otherwise. And it feels good to know you have lost inches.
Sodium
Consider your own health condition and any Rx meds but... low carb is not a low sodium way of eating or living. You *must* get your sodium in or your body will suffer. It might suffer silently for a long time before it finally breaks. Or it might express itself as agonizing leg cramps. Those cramps are caused by dehydration and/or a potassium deficiency but if you are a low sodium consumer then your sodium deficiency is contributing to your potassium loss and dehydration. The body excretes potassium if it is forced to conserve sodium because you are not getting enough. That is how important sodium is to your body. Phinney advises 5 Grams of sodium daily. That is a lot of sodium. Fear not! Unless you are going out of your way to eat low sodium you are probably getting 2 to 4 grams in your food every day. A little extra use of the salt shaker will fix up most people just fine. It is worth taking a look at how much sodium you are getting if you use a food logger. Table salt is not one for one on sodium grams. Google for the conversion 'how much sodium in table salt'. If you've been a casual low sodium person then you should pay careful attention to what you are eating and dun your former salt eschewing ways.

The body will cannabalize LBM for potassium if it has to. So, low sodium -> sacrifice potassium -> rob lean tissue for potassium -> poor LC results.
Links of Interest

April's NK thread

A sodium thread I created.

Long Term Stalls podcast with Jimmy Moore and Dr. Phinney. I made a list of the things covered in the podcast with the time it is located at within the recording. It isn't all inclusive but it is thorough.

Notes

Join in the conversation any time. Feel free to ask any questions you have. We are all happy to help you. Lurkers are welcome too.

Last edited by clackley; 01-01-2014 at 08:22 AM..
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Old 01-01-2014, 08:32 AM   #2
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Thanks so much for post, Cathy.
What you say about sodium has been ever so much true for me.
My consumption of P and sodium is down quite a bit of late, but for a while I was taking salt tablets and drinking salt water at night. I continue to salt my coffee (I've developed a preference for it that way), but my supplemental intake of salt and Potassium has reduced, with leg cramps infrequent. They were really awful for a while. I had never salted my food very much, so I was definitely not getting enough salt in my regular diet.

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Old 01-01-2014, 08:37 AM   #3
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I can't take credit for any of the quoted post. I am not sure who did the 'leg work' but it wasn't me. However, I have done the reading and for an interesting article on the subject is a NYT article written by Gary Taubes entitled... "We Only Think We Know the Truth About Salt".
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Old 01-01-2014, 08:44 AM   #4
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I've done a lot of searching on salt and have read about up to 5 grams a day from multiple sources. Sounds a lot but I was supplementing with at least 3 grams a day most of the summer plus whatever else I was adding to my food. This was a good bit of advice for me, because in my previous lc efforts I had just upped to potassium without that extra bit of knowledge about the salt. It's still a balancing act, but I feel like I am finally settling into a liveable equilibrium of sorts.

I should probably read about the long-term stalls now. I am losing but s . . . l . . . . o . . . . . w . . . . l . . . . y.

But not going back to where was in January 2013, no way no how.

Happy new year everyone!

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Old 01-01-2014, 09:42 AM   #5
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Hi Patience - Just wondered if you were using/taking natural salt like celtic sea salt, Himalayan pink salt, Fleur de sel, etc. If its pure white (even "sea salt'), it's a processed product and really not healthy.
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Old 01-01-2014, 10:02 AM   #6
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I was taking sodium chloride tablets, I still have the container. My last order never got delivered but returned to sender. Don't know what that was about. Meanwhile decided it was a lot cheaper to just make my own capsules . . . bought a capsule making device no less .... but not yet used it. Sometimes I use table salt, sometimes Morton, but mostly sea salt now. I've bought Hains and Eden (portuguese and french/celtic). What kind of salt would you recommend?
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Old 01-01-2014, 10:37 AM   #7
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Any of the ones I mentioned, just as long as it's not pure white. The natural salts do cost more, but they are really so much better for you. It's the good and natural minerals in these salts that give them their 'color'. I use the Himalayan pink salt and Redmond's Real Salt.

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Old 01-01-2014, 12:10 PM   #8
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thank you this is very helpful!!!! my brain allllllways trys to tell me that less calories is the way to go...this is obviously not the case and I seem to punish my body eating 1300 or less calories which makes me grumpy and not lose....I will try to wrap my head around this information and watch my salt intake as I just made this something I see on my tracker. THANKS AGAIN!!!!

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Old 01-01-2014, 12:25 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by Dialee View Post
Any of the ones I mentioned, just as long as it's not pure white. The natural salts do cost more, but they are really so much better for you. It's the good and natural minerals in these salts that give them their 'color'. I use the Himalayan pink salt and Redmond's Real Salt.
I can purchase the Himalayan pink salt at my coop. I'll add it to my salt stock. Not familiar with Remond's but I'll check into it. Thanks!
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Old 01-01-2014, 12:28 PM   #10
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Not surprising mayleesa, as the calorie thing is so drummed into our heads from so many sources. Some of us do need to keep some track of calories. So far I am not, but if I stall completely I may have too.
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Old 01-02-2014, 01:19 AM   #11
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I'm glad of the New Year as a reset time. I did really poorly this last year - lotsa stress led to some really bad eating choices in June, and I haven't be able to stick to NK for more than a few weeks at a time since then. Starting today (Jan. 2) I'm getting serious about this. I want to lose the 10 lbs. I gained in 2013, plus another 20 or more. Ideally, I'd like to get to my goal weight, but I've been losing really slowly, even on NK. :/
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Old 01-02-2014, 04:29 AM   #12
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Happy New year to you all from me too

I did ok over Xmas, but ate more carbs than I normally would. I try and keep between 8-15 carbs a day, more than that and I'm out of ketosis, I also ate more protein than I needed...my carbs were only from protein sources ( nuts and carby seafoods) so nothing awful..oh and some from alcohol.....but I felt the difference. I haven't weighed yet...will maybe weigh on Monday.....speaking of Monday, I'm thinking of doing my first ever fat fast....not sure if I am following the 'rules' properly, but going to try just one 'meal' of lamb loin chops at dinner time, and the rest of the day only cream, butter and cheese....going to see if I can do three days in a row and see if it boosts loss for me. It will also be less over all protein which I think Clackley has talked about in another thread.
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Old 01-02-2014, 06:42 AM   #13
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Quote:
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Happy New year to you all from me too

I did ok over Xmas, but ate more carbs than I normally would. I try and keep between 8-15 carbs a day, more than that and I'm out of ketosis, I also ate more protein than I needed...my carbs were only from protein sources ( nuts and carby seafoods) so nothing awful..oh and some from alcohol.....but I felt the difference. I haven't weighed yet...will maybe weigh on Monday.....speaking of Monday, I'm thinking of doing my first ever fat fast....not sure if I am following the 'rules' properly, but going to try just one 'meal' of lamb loin chops at dinner time, and the rest of the day only cream, butter and cheese....going to see if I can do three days in a row and see if it boosts loss for me. It will also be less over all protein which I think Clackley has talked about in another thread.
You are sounding like me. I did stick to plan mostly but there were a couple of days that I exceeded my normal limits. I am back to plan.

I am doing a one day/week of low protein, keeping carbs very low and protein to a 15g limit (including all sources). Cheese is pretty high in protein and is very limited as a result. I am doing one today.
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Old 01-02-2014, 07:01 AM   #14
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Hi everyone! Happy New Year to everyone, may health and happyness be your constant companion for 2014!


Nothing much to report. No weight loss, no weight gain (good!!!) but I do have to say I'm not in NK anymore. A little too much protein, a little chocolate and too many vegetables have thrown me out of K. Am back on track now though, so hopefully I'll see some good numbers soon.

I'm back to my Intermittent Fasting schedule as well: I semi-fast until dinner and then keep a 4 hour window in which I eat my main meal.

My general menu looks like this:

B: BPC
L: BPC or water, depending on my hunger
D: dinner with a starter of homemade broth with some butter, a main course of protein, fat and LC vegetables and a dessert if wanted/needed of some kind like creme fraiche with almond butter.

I'm keeping my ratios as before, and did this yesterday and really enjoyed it. I'm hoping it will get me to NK soon as well. It really works for me, as I don't mind fasting so much and I feel good doing it. I also like knowing that I can have one really nice meal a day and I can keep within my calculated limits pretty easily this way.
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Old 01-02-2014, 05:09 PM   #15
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I wish I could wrap my brain around IFing. In theory, it makes so much sense, but for some reason it causes me to end up bingeing. Maybe I'll try just one day oer week and see how I do.
In the meantime, I am just trying to get thru a whole month without going off plan and knocking myself out if NK. I haven't been in full NK in months, and it makes it really hard to stay on track. That is my goal for this month.
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Old 01-02-2014, 07:03 PM   #16
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Happy New Year Everyone. I'm new to this WOL but I am in ketosis and feel happy and satiated.
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Old 01-03-2014, 12:27 AM   #17
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cfine, I find modifying my fast by drinking a BPC or two really helps keep me happy... I can go a whole day without eating, but I can't do that every day. By drinking two BPCs and then having a nice satisfying meal at the end of the day I feel that I can be somewhat normal yet still get the health benefits from fasting. I plan on doing this for at least a month so I'll post more when I notice any changes! By the way, IF is much easier when in NK. You're not hungry and by eating LCHF you are satisfied with food for longer as well.
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Old 01-03-2014, 05:23 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by clackley View Post

I am doing a one day/week of low protein, keeping carbs very low and protein to a 15g limit (including all sources). Cheese is pretty high in protein and is very limited as a result. I am doing one today.
If you get time, could you post an outline of what you ate today? I'm curious as to how I'd go with minimal cheese lol
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Old 01-03-2014, 06:32 AM   #19
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If you get time, could you post an outline of what you ate today? I'm curious as to how I'd go with minimal cheese lol
I run all my food through a food tracker and have come up with a menu that meets my goals. It is not particularly easy but it is only one day.

2 bpc - one first thing in the morning and the next around noon
sour cream 'pudding' - 2 tbsp. cream cheese and 3 tbsp sour cream with sweetener
shirataki noodles in Alfredo sauce
99% lindt chocolate

That works out to be 98g fat and 16g protein.
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Old 01-03-2014, 07:09 AM   #20
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cfine, I find modifying my fast by drinking a BPC or two really helps keep me happy... I can go a whole day without eating, but I can't do that every day. By drinking two BPCs and then having a nice satisfying meal at the end of the day I feel that I can be somewhat normal yet still get the health benefits from fasting. I plan on doing this for at least a month so I'll post more when I notice any changes! By the way, IF is much easier when in NK. You're not hungry and by eating LCHF you are satisfied with food for longer as well.
Same here. I am way more likely to feel bingey if I do plain IF. Modified with BPC 5 days a week is manageable and even easy.
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Old 01-03-2014, 07:10 AM   #21
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Happy New Year Everyone. I'm new to this WOL but I am in ketosis and feel happy and satiated.
Welcome! Glad you're feeling satisfied!
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Old 01-03-2014, 07:20 AM   #22
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Wanted to add: on days that I'm home and not working, I eat 2 or 3 meals, depending on how hungry I am. It seems easier to IF when I'm at the office. I also think that I'm more productive and alert when I fast during my working day. Just something I figured out in the last couple of weeks of constant eating, LOL
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Old 01-03-2014, 07:49 PM   #23
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I am thinking about trying it for a day with the BPC and see how it goes. Thanks for the advice.
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Old 01-04-2014, 09:22 PM   #24
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Quote:
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I run all my food through a food tracker and have come up with a menu that meets my goals. It is not particularly easy but it is only one day.

2 bpc - one first thing in the morning and the next around noon
sour cream 'pudding' - 2 tbsp. cream cheese and 3 tbsp sour cream with sweetener
shirataki noodles in Alfredo sauce
99% lindt chocolate

That works out to be 98g fat and 16g protein.
Thankyou! Planning to start tomorow.....watch this space! How are you going with it? Do you do more than one day in a row?
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Old 01-05-2014, 01:28 AM   #25
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Wanted to add: on days that I'm home and not working, I eat 2 or 3 meals, depending on how hungry I am. It seems easier to IF when I'm at the office. I also think that I'm more productive and alert when I fast during my working day. Just something I figured out in the last couple of weeks of constant eating, LOL
I totally agree. IFing is easier if I am working in the office vs. working at home.

I definitely believe that there must be a suitable IFing environment for one to succeed. If you are doing IF in an environment where you normally eat and are very comfortable, it will be torture. If I feel like fasting, I try to make sure it is away from my apartment.
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Old 01-05-2014, 06:28 AM   #26
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Thankyou! Planning to start tomorow.....watch this space! How are you going with it? Do you do more than one day in a row?
I have been doing just less than 1 a week due to the Christmas season mostly. But now that there is more routine, I will be doing it on Thursdays and regular n.k. the other days.

I honestly don't think there would be a problem doing it for 3 days in a row every now and then (just like a fat fast) but I want the notion behind once a week is what was suggested for what sounded like logical reasons.

I also miss my protein on those days so I am not anxious to expand it just yet.
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Old 01-05-2014, 04:00 PM   #27
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Yes, I don't think I can go as low protein as you will be...I also have three kids, so am cautious to avoid what looks like dieting in the extreme. They are cool with low carbing, ESP from a paleo stand point, but my 10yo daughter is at the age where she is noticing food choices, and if I ate no actual food all day, I would have a lot of explaining to do. So I have a fatty lamb chop for dinner...works out at 31g protein, plus 10g from cheese for lunch....total 41g, half of what I normally have...which is better than nothing I think lol we will be at the park all day with friends ( summer holidays here and all our schooled friends ( we homeschool) are free to play all day! So I will need to look like I'm eating there too, hence the cheese...tomorow we will be home and I will see if I can wing it without
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Old 01-06-2014, 03:00 AM   #28
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Cathy, your low protein days sound interesting! Am going to follow you closely...

I'm feeling good doing my IF, and will continue with this routine for now. I'm still keeping to my numbers though. I haven't measured my BK yet, will wait another week or two before I do so, since I am definitely not in NK yet after the Christmas period eating...

TOM is also here, so that's throwing a spanner in the works regarding any and all weightloss. Am retaining water and have gained 4 pounds! Very annoying, but I also know that it will be gone by the end of the week, hopefully taking some more pounds off too.
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Old 01-06-2014, 06:52 AM   #29
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I end up doing both I.F. and low protein. It just makes it easier. But I do practice i.f. on a fairly regular basis (at least a couple of times a week).
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Old 01-06-2014, 02:22 PM   #30
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WOE: NK
Start Date: April 2012
I did a trial run yesterday,sort of like a half marathon. I ate six deviled eggs and two BPC for the day. I ended up with 40 grams of protein. I really want to try the one day a week low protein but am a little intimidated by it. Do you find that you are super hungry the next day after having a low protein day? I am starving today. I usually keep my protein at around 70-80 grams, but I am going to be at 103 grams today and I feel like its because of yesterday.
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