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Old 12-01-2013, 07:15 AM   #1
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Normal Hunger Pangs

I've been easing my way back into keto for the past week or so. Before this, I had been eating a regular-carb paleo diet, which is still lower carb than normal diets. After awhile, I started craving oatmeal, so added that in as well (then my asthma came back, so I stopped eating it again...).

Anyway, before returning to keto, cravings started to take over my mind completely.... I often work from my office at home, and, after awhile, I couldn't seem to stay out of the kitchen. I was always thinking about eating something.

Now, easing back into ketosis, I'm remember how it feels to have freedom from cravings and constant thoughts of food. The last few days, I've only had a nice-size late breakfast, and haven't even thought about eating again until the evening.

And I really enjoy the rich food.

I know this diet isn't for everyone, but for some of us, it really is wonderful.
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Old 12-03-2013, 08:39 AM   #2
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What made you decide to go off keto in the first place? I am just curious.

I have been on it for a year. And although I thought I had died and gone to heaven when I first discovered it. Ie. it is so nice eating fat again! 8) I find now though that my body is tired of being so high fat all the time. I am now hovering around the 60% fat mark which I believe is officially out of NK. But I like having the bit of fruit and veggies in the diet. On the other hand I have issues with yoyo dieting so I might not be able to maintain, just adding those extra carbs. I guess time will tell.
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Old 12-03-2013, 08:58 AM   #3
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Well, one reason was I wanted to do more of a "seasonal diet" with more fruits and vegetables in the summer.

While I only gained water weight, I think I was headed in the direction of gaining much more. The cravings just started to get uncontrollable. I was doing a lot of strength training to do my best to ensure that the carbs went towards muscle building... damage control.

I plan on doing NK different this time around. I want to do carb refeeds if/when I feel the need. Last time I was 100% ketosis.

But my goals are sort of like yours: I'm not so interested in losing weight as I am in controlling my blood sugar/cravings and maintaining my weight.
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Old 12-04-2013, 04:15 AM   #4
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Wow great! I am interested in finding out how your approach works. I am kind of thinking the same way about the fruit and veggies. I live in a climate where they are plentiful and cheap in the summer and would like to be able to eat them. I have been doing ok, managing the hunger but I had to add a lot more fibre to make it work. I never really was in NK even when I was doing VLC, so I doubt it really matters with me. When I was measuring my blood ketones, I was rarely over 0.5 mmol, unless I was doing some long endurance sessions or if I was ill and couldn't eat. I also had some problems with the VHF, for example I would have heart burn some mornings and sometimes I would feel very uncomfortably full. And it also didn't really prevent bingeing in my case. I still seem to be able to overeat doing HF. The increased fibre seems to work better, and I can get away with eating more carbs.

The carb refeeds will probably help with the exercise I would imagine. I still find I get tired easy if I do any intense exercise. Moderate exercise and general weight lifting is fine.
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Old 12-04-2013, 05:25 AM   #5
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This might seem like a silly question, but how much animal fat were you eating?

I find that avocado, olive oil, etc. are tasty, but not filling. And dairy fats are only somewhat filling. However, eating actual animal fat or homemade fatty broth is satiating, and I have no desire to overeat them. I can quickly overeat nuts or nut butter, without knowing it, and feel heartburn and stuffed later for hours.

I guess what I'm saying is, we generically speak about eating lots of "fat", but not every fat produces the same level of satiation. And some fats lend themselves to being overeaten.

Anyway, I thought that I would be able to handle the introduction of daily starches better. I even ate them only after some sort of movement/exercise. Eventually, I started having the same problems with cravings. Fiber doesn't help me in the slightest.

On a related note, I've also been reading a lot on "Habits" in the history of philosophy and psychology. I think if one has a serious addiction, they may need to change their external environment almost 100% to fight that addiction. This is because the body produces a physiological response to continue the habit when it is given the appropriate environmental cues.

For instance, most smokers must quit drinking as well to kick the habit. This is because once you have the first drink, your body produces the urge for you to smoke a cigarette. Or maybe one always has a cigarette while driving. That person may need to start car pooling, walking to work, taking public transportation.... as the urge will be so strong, in most cases the person will succumb to that urge. If he doesn't have cigarettes on him at the moment, he will almost unconsciously stop and buy a pack.

Or many overweight people have to give up many of their friends or old activities, like going to the movies, because the environment produces the urge to eat that their willpower is not strong enough to fight against. Many find that if they surround themselves with people, they are no longer tempted to overeat, as it is something that is only cued by being alone.

These are just some things I contemplate. I don't think NK is a cure all, but for me it seems to be a good starting point to find out how I can maintain my weight in the long run.
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Old 12-04-2013, 03:01 PM   #6
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I eat all fats, but mostly the type you mentioned. I don't eat nuts or cheese alone because they are such small servings. A handful of nut?! They're gone before my brain even registers that I have had food. 8) When I say that I eat dairy and nut fats, they are in the form of sauces, or added to something else. The fibre that practically kills my appetite is the soluble type which is found in some things but not others, so you really have to pay attention to the type of fibre that it is. I use glucomannan powder to make puddings and sauces, and I can't eat very much of it without feeling completely stuffed.

I completely agree with your theory in the above post. I have had to stop hanging around my family for that reason. They tend to infect me with their nonsense about the right and wrong way to eat. Thanks to them I practically developed an eating disorder instead of trying to figure out how to eat properly, paying attention to nutrition and reasonable portion sizes.

Right now I am basically not eating processed foods, bread and bread products, starchy veggies and most fruit. My diet is basically meat and veggies, with some dairy, eggs, nuts and seeds. And all of my portion sizes are reasonable. I didn't know for example that once serving of cheese is about the size of 2 dice. I remember when I ate cheese and crackers before how much I would eat for a snack. I am guessing it would be around 3 servings. Plus the crackers, it would have been close to 800 cal, which would be about half my daily caloric intake. No wonder I had to exercise 3 to 5 hours a day!
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Old 12-04-2013, 04:51 PM   #7
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Animal fats are more satiating to me, although I've developed a new love of CO.
I avoid nuts because I overeat them; I do eat pumpkin seeds occasionally.
I treat myself to some tomatoes or tree fruit in the summer, and almost no fruit in the winter. I do eat lots of eggs and a bit of cheese or fullfat yogurt. I really enjoy not being ravenous for food. It just doesn't happen any more.

I convinced myself last winter that I needed oatmeal. Not this year. Maybe in some future year.

Last edited by Patience; 12-04-2013 at 04:53 PM..
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Old 12-05-2013, 07:02 AM   #8
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Punkin: Why does your family care so much? Are they nutritionists?
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Old 12-05-2013, 07:04 AM   #9
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Animal fats are more satiating to me, although I've developed a new love of CO.
I avoid nuts because I overeat them; I do eat pumpkin seeds occasionally.
I treat myself to some tomatoes or tree fruit in the summer, and almost no fruit in the winter. I do eat lots of eggs and a bit of cheese or fullfat yogurt. I really enjoy not being ravenous for food. It just doesn't happen any more.

I convinced myself last winter that I needed oatmeal. Not this year. Maybe in some future year.
I also decided I needed to add oatmeal back in - big mistake. I do still eat tomatoes.... even now. But I seem to crave tomato paste when I do eat it, I just can't get enough of it, so I have to be careful.
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Old 12-06-2013, 06:17 AM   #10
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I did some research once into tomato paste and the calories basically come from two things: High fructose corn syrup and MSG (which is a protein). I believe that type of syrup has been shown to be addictive. Now I just use real tomatos instead of processed tomato foods. I never seem to eat more of them than I should even though they are fairly high in carbs. If the sauce needs sweetening I add a bit of splenda. Splenda doesn't seem to trigger cravings for me so it works.

My family has a lot of issues around their weight. My sister and mother are both overweight and constantly talk about the fact that they need to lose weight. They've tried many diets and have been unsuccessful. One of the things they tend to do is attack me and my WOE. My husband says it is because my success highlights their failures. I have tried giving them advice but it is never well received. It just ends up being that my diet and ideas are unhealthy and that I have an eating disorder. So I have basically given up on them. My mother is completely anti fat. Everything she buys is fat free and our family dinners are all high carb. She also gets her nutritional facts from Dr. Oz and apparently he knows everything.

Last edited by Punkin; 12-06-2013 at 06:19 AM..
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Old 12-06-2013, 06:22 AM   #11
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I also decided I needed to add oatmeal back in - big mistake. I do still eat tomatoes.... even now. But I seem to crave tomato paste when I do eat it, I just can't get enough of it, so I have to be careful.
Oatmeal used to be one of my weaknesses. You could probably try something like cream mixed with course almond flour and cinnamon and maybe sweetener. Then add a bit of glycomannan powder to thicken it. It might make a good alternative. I make something similar to make a low carb rice pudding. Even though I use chopped up kelp noodles instead of rice. Its really good, and I forget about how much I used to love rice pudding!
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Old 12-07-2013, 01:18 AM   #12
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I did some research once into tomato paste and the calories basically come from two things: High fructose corn syrup and MSG (which is a protein).
Actually, I am buy 100% organic tomato paste, no additives whatsoever. I find that the mixture of tomato paste and cheese and meat brings me back to my good ole days of food addiction and eating whole pizzas!

I've made low-carb pizzas with the cauliflower crust and still ate it until it was gone, like I used to do pizza hut pizzas! I was literally dreaming about the pizza and woke up in the middle of the night to eat the rest of it.

Yeah... some foods are just that way! The other food for me is peanut butter and oatmeal. I can eat the whole jar of peanut butter and bowls and bowls of oatmeal without registering the feeling of "full". This is even despite the fact that peanut butter eventually makes me itchy all over and oatmeal brings my mild asthma back (wheezing).

But those are my only problem foods. Otherwise my satiety cues work properly.
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Old 12-07-2013, 01:28 AM   #13
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My family has a lot of issues around their weight. My sister and mother are both overweight and constantly talk about the fact that they need to lose weight. They've tried many diets and have been unsuccessful. One of the things they tend to do is attack me and my WOE. My husband says it is because my success highlights their failures. I have tried giving them advice but it is never well received. It just ends up being that my diet and ideas are unhealthy and that I have an eating disorder. So I have basically given up on them. My mother is completely anti fat. Everything she buys is fat free and our family dinners are all high carb. She also gets her nutritional facts from Dr. Oz and apparently he knows everything.
My sister also never listens to me, despite the fact that I've maintained a huge weight loss more or less for years now. She would rather try that pregnancy drug-injection, which includes a 500 cal. a day diet, than read something on the paleo diet or NK.

But, she used to be the skinny one. She was heavily into gymnastics, really fit. But after she met her husband and had two kids, all she does now is the elliptical (sometimes) and eat fast food or processed food. Her husband was brought up on fast food/restaurant food, so that is all he likes to eat. She has terrible acid reflux and stores all her weight in her upper and lower abdomen and chin. She is always bloated.

Yesterday she had to have her gallbladder out, she is only 37. I hope it helps with her acid reflux and bloating.

She eats fast food with her family on a very regular basis. She doesn't know what nutrition is at all. She still cooks hamburger helper.

Anyway, this kills me because she is just the sweetest person in the whole world. She has so much potential to be healthy and fit again. But, instead, she listens to the girls at work, who are injecting themselves and eating 500 calories. Of course it works in the short-term, but 3 months later she is unhealthier than when she started.

And my Mom is a sugar and bread addict. I'm actually quite surprised that she is not larger. She says she needs something with sugar to "get her going in the morning". She has been on WW more times than I can count, yo-yoing up and down and is never the wiser. She still thinks it is a matter of will-power. She has glaucoma and is pre-diabetic.

But I can't talk. If I hadn't of found forums like these, I'd probably still be at WWs too.

Last edited by unna; 12-07-2013 at 01:30 AM..
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Old 12-07-2013, 05:19 AM   #14
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Unna, I know exactly what you mean. The other day I tried to convince my husband to start eating my homemade ketchup and mayonnaise. Which basically means higher fat and lower sugar, with less chemicals. Because I don't eat the typical North American diet, or at least haven't been for the last year, everyone thinks I have an eating disorder. I just finished my personal trainer certification and my instructor said to just give it time. Once people see your success sustained over a longer period of time, they will eventually coming to you for help and advice.
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Old 12-07-2013, 05:30 AM   #15
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This thread is so interesting to me. I feel I've learned a lot from your discussion and I thank you both. I found your information about habits particularly thought provoking, unna.
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Old 12-07-2013, 06:37 AM   #16
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Unna, I also never buy anything but organic canned tomatoes without sweetener.
Salt is ok because I need more salt. I only eat fresh tomatoes in season. The taste of many canned tomatoes is better that fresh, off season, fruit. I also buy unsweetened ketchup -- but rarely use it. I never eat P-butter anymore, and generally avoid nuts and nut butters. I sometimes eat some pumpkin or sesame seeds.
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Old 12-08-2013, 12:32 AM   #17
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This thread is so interesting to me. I feel I've learned a lot from your discussion and I thank you both. I found your information about habits particularly thought provoking, unna.
Most people who recommend "changing old habits" to lose weight are so vague it doesn't even help, which is why I wanted to read more about it. I wanted to know how the body and mind are connected in this regard.

For instance, did you know that when you walk into your kitchen, your body produces a physiological response (hormonal, nervous system, etc.) to eat? So, if you work from home, this might be a big problem. Or maybe someone at your office always brings treats in, your body gets used to this and produces a genuine hunger signal to get up and go to the break room for a treat. This is no longer a matter of pure willpower and false craving.... your body makes you feel like you are authentically hungry.

This is also why so many people succeed in rehab, then resort to their old drug-using habits when they return home. It is no longer a matter of willpower - their body is producing genuine cravings in that environment that cause discomfort and even pain.

With this knowledge, you then have to make a plan. At the office, you should probably go into the break room with a handful of almonds. If you are a serious alcoholic, this might mean that you only talk to certain friends on the phone from now on.

The famous psychologist William James wrote about how to change habit in a pragmatic way:

We must "make our nervous system our ally instead of our enemy", "For this we must make automatic and habitual, as early as possible, as many useful actions as we can, and guard against the growing into ways that are likely to be disadvantageous to us".

James writes that we only have a finite amount of energy to exert to changing a bad habit, and we will be miserable if we try to change too many habits at once. For instance, many people go on a diet and decide to eat every meal perfectly and they try to wake up super early to go to the gym everyday (which means they have to grocery shop differently, cook differently, go to bed at a different time, etc.). All of this effort to do everything perfectly at once is usually too extreme and will cause them to crash and burn after a few months. So, James would find that it is beneficial to focus on a few, singular habits at one time.

Most importantly for James is: "Never suffer an exception to occur till the new habit is securely rooted in your life".

So, focus on one habit at a time, and as you are changing that habit, do not let anything get in the way of performing it correctly in the beginning. This is crucial. You can undo all your hard work in a matter of seconds.

Your family and friends may be angry with you if you do not eat pie, potatoes, or drink alcohol at X-mas. They may be angry with you if you stay home at New Years.

But, according to James, it is extremely easy to undo all your hard work in the beginning if you do not follow through. So, whatever habit you are trying to instill, do NOT let anything come in the way of you performing that habit. Perhaps after you have been performing the habit for a year or two you will be able to break it without bad side effects.

Anyway, I find many psychologists and psychiatrists (and even dieticians or those working in rehab!) do not really read and contemplate for themselves the classic theories of William James, Freud, etc. This is unfortunate. James and Freud were extremely insightful about the human condition.

Both psychologists basically agreed that humans are "bundles of habits". If we understand ourselves in this way, we'll stop putting so much pressure on our "willpower", but more on our intellect. Essentially we must learn to be smarter than our bad habit, if we seek to change it.
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Old 12-08-2013, 06:25 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unna View Post
I've been easing my way back into keto for the past week or so. Before this, I had been eating a regular-carb paleo diet, which is still lower carb than normal diets. After awhile, I started craving oatmeal, so added that in as well (then my asthma came back, so I stopped eating it again...).

Anyway, before returning to keto, cravings started to take over my mind completely.... I often work from my office at home, and, after awhile, I couldn't seem to stay out of the kitchen. I was always thinking about eating something.

Now, easing back into ketosis, I'm remember how it feels to have freedom from cravings and constant thoughts of food. The last few days, I've only had a nice-size late breakfast, and haven't even thought about eating again until the evening.

And I really enjoy the rich food.

I know this diet isn't for everyone, but for some of us, it really is wonderful.
I remember this phase. I would question myself about why I wasn't hungry and why about 1/2 the amount of food was satisfying and I was actually leaving food uneaten because I was full. It was weird.

It really took some time to adjust and relearn what actual hunger felt like and how it was not the monster it once felt like. Being relieved of the intrusive thoughts of food was another wonderful benefit.

For these reasons alone, I can't imagine why low carb is not the ideal way of eating for everyone.
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