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Old 10-08-2013, 12:15 PM   #1
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thanks for listening

This week starts week 5 for my new LCHF/NK Woe, and wanted to share some observations. I am a type 2 diabetic, controlling with morning and evening doses of metformin ER. I was using victoza, but the only real reason my endo prescribed it was in an effort to “reduce appetite” and help me lose weight. I told him I didn’t need help with appetite reduction, and after 6 months of sticking myself, told him I wasn’t going to take it anymore. I don’t like taking drugs to begin with, let alone under those pretenses.

I am also hypothyroid. I still have it, it just doesn’t work very well. I take Synthroid, and am still not fully regulated, IMO – I’ve had my meds both increased and decreased in the last year. I get regular autoimmune thyroid attacks that really throw me for a loop…like contracting flu or something. All I can really do is take alieve (for the inflammation) and wait for them to go away. I am also a road warrior, meaning that I fly out every Monday for work, and fly home every Friday. I always try to stay at hotels that have a way for me to store and prepare food. Give me a mini-fridge and a microwave and I’ll make you a darned tasty ham and egg scramble.

All of that being said…I am entering into week 5. I count net carbs and full. My net count is almost always under 20. My full count is definitely always under 50. My ketone meter reads me in what I believe to be light NK at 1.0-1.5 when tested in the mornings. My BS readings have come down some (I tried going without meds when I first started…no dice), but I still have spikes. My average is under 120. But I’ll go to bed @ 115 or lower (90’s), and be 130 or 150 in the morning. I try to keep my protein between 65-75g, mostly on the lower end of that. I’m 5ft 6in. I have a feeling that my liver is pumping out glucose, but I have no idea why.

I did try PSMF (protein sparing modified fast) 4 years ago….lost a bit of weight (30lb) quickly, and also my gall bladder because of it. I tried vegetarian, and gained about 30 lbs and felt horrible. Since going LCHF/NK, I’ve lost about 7lbs….mostly that water woosh from the beginning. Since then nothing. I cant say I’m losing inches either because my pants are just as tight, and I have a very bloated feeling. I do drink copious amounts of water, both to flush out my system, and because I get very thirsty. I’m also addicted to herbal teas.

My point here is that I’ve kept my fat at 65% or better…usually around 80%. I read a great post earlier this week that MerryKate posted about the basics of calculating your nutritional requirements, etc. BMR for someone of my weight/age(46)/height is over 1700kcal. I know that I’ve not been eating to my BMR until the last couple of days. BUT…I’ve also heard that you should eat to the BMR of your desired weight….or one of your mini-goals. Which makes sense in a way…it may be easier ultimately for your body to transition to maintenance, if you are actually eating your way there to begin with.

Taking all of the above into consideration, I’m just a tad frustrated that I’ve not dumped much weight yet, of course…but that is secondary. I’m more frustrated with my blood sugar spikes for seemingly no reason. I really want that regulated. I want to put my diabetes into remission. I’m also super tired, and feel very bloated. Maybe a longer bout with keto-flu? I wonder if over time of yo-yoing and what not, the system becomes so “diet conscience” that it puts on the breaks harder and harder. I know from everything I have read (multiple Taubes and Eades books, as well as the science and art books) that this is the right thing to do for overall health and well-being, so I’ll keep on keeping on…I was just wondering if any of y’all have had any similar type of experience? I’ve not been good to myself from a diet perspective, and I’m trying to make it right. I am just hoping I’ve not done irreparable damage. Sorry for the ramble. I wanted to vent.
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Old 10-08-2013, 12:40 PM   #2
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What level of protein are you consuming?
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Old 10-08-2013, 01:36 PM   #3
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Personally I think it sounds like you are doing very well so far. It's only been 5 weeks, and we can't expect our bodies to respond immediately when we just flip the switch, and go low carb.

Your blood sugars HAVE come down, you said. So just keep working at it. Just keep watching them come down, a little at a time. The longer you work at it too, the more you'll see what foods do what to you, and quantities, and time of day you eat.

I think so many of us have dieted so much in our lives that our bodies truly don't know what's going on anymore and because of that, the weight just sticks around. Our bodies just refuse to let go. Instead of forcing the body to drop weight by eating less, exercising more, etc. I think we need to learn to be kind and gentle to our body. Give it a little break to let it get used to the new changes.

I'm just as guilty as the rest for wanting the weight gone now (preferably yesterday) but it doesn't always happen that way.

A lot of women will NOT lose weight at 1700 calories, not after the abuse given to one's body. But your body CAN heal if you eat enough calories for it to take that break, and then when it's ready, it will drop the pounds.

Maybe that sounds like a bunch of hokey stuff, and it probably is, but I do believe it.

Tracking is a great way to learn what you are consuming, but it can also make one obsessive, the idea IS to learn to eat when you need food. Some will finally be able to do that, others never will.

Post some of your daily menus, let us give you suggestions.

Good luck, and relax a bit.

Oh...it probably took me a good 2-3 months before things started to kick in, and the longer I am LC/keto, the easier it is....seriously.

And with that, I think I'll go have a cup of coffee with cream, just because I can and the low-fat dieter can't...ha ha..
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Old 10-08-2013, 01:44 PM   #4
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Me again.

Talking about blood sugar spikes, what exactly are you seeing?

You mentioned 130-150 in the morning. Your fasting blood sugar is not a spike. Sounds like Dawn Phenomenon, and we don't have much control over that. If you go to be at 100 and wake 30-50 pts higher in the morning, that's most likely it.

Are you tracking your blood sugar before and after meals (1 and 2 hours)? What numbers are you getting based on what you eat?

Plus it's not an exact science. Just because one day you eat 2 eggs and 1 T of butter and have a blood sugar of 100, the next day the same meal and you might have 120. There is error in the meter and just how our bodies are functioning.

Being sick (or getting sick) or pain and inflammation (which you mentioned) will also make it go up, and it doesn't always make sense when we are first tracking.
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Old 10-08-2013, 04:02 PM   #5
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What level of protein are you consuming?
I try to consume 65-75g of protein per day. Today I'll finish out right about 70 when all is said and done. Thanks.
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Old 10-08-2013, 04:48 PM   #6
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Thank you for the encouragement Annette. Much appreciated. You are probably right about the dawn phenomenon. When testing bs after meals I have only a very slight rise now, that being only a few points, and I never have the after meal foggy feeling I did before when I inherently knew it was going up. During the week meals look like B: coffee w/cream, 2oz smoked salmon w/cream cheese (sometimes scrambled with an egg). Morning or afternoon snacks are cuke slices w/boursin or rondele, macadamias or parmesan crisps (shredded parmesan nuked for 1.5 mins in my silicone mini muffin tin-1tsp per cup), L: 2hb eggs smashed w/mayo and dijon with endive, D: shiratake w/pancetta cream (that stuff is lick the bowl good), and a pb&dark chocolate fat bomb. Sometimes I'll throw in a half an avocado too, or a sugarfree jello for fun.

Monday I had a minute muffin and a bunch of nuts since it was a travel day and I was woefully unprepared...even though there was a lot of fiber there, I think it was just too much carb-wise. I usually pack string cheese, or hb egg for the plane.

On weekends when I'm home with the fam, I'll have an egg scramble for breakfast and then make corned beef and cabbage, or wings or turkey burgers for dinner. I generally skip lunch on the weekends because I'm super busy (as we all are right?).

You hit the nail on the head though with using tracking tools as just that...tools to learn with, and train one-self with, as opposed to adding another element to our OCD arsenal. I'll chill out and just keep moving on, and let the magic happen as it happens.

Thanks again!
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Old 10-08-2013, 04:52 PM   #7
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Oh, I'll also join you in that coffee...because its so darn good that way!
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Old 10-08-2013, 05:09 PM   #8
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My observations about myself have been that if I don't eat close to my calories levels, I don't lose as fast. It seems like an oxymoron, but I've noticed it. We have become so accustomed to thinking that if we eat less calories then we must lose weight. Especially on this WOE, it seems more important.
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Old 10-08-2013, 05:10 PM   #9
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And I must say; you are a rock star! Eating out in the road for most of week is hard, but you are doing it! You deserve a pat on the back.
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Old 10-08-2013, 05:20 PM   #10
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My observations about myself have been that if I don't eat close to my calories levels, I don't lose as fast. It seems like an oxymoron, but I've noticed it. We have become so accustomed to thinking that if we eat less calories then we must lose weight. Especially on this WOE, it seems more important.
So you try to eat at your bmr then? I have to say that when I tried psmf it was probably one of the worst things I did. Under 1000kcal per day of low fat protein. Its a wonder I didn't end up eating my family.
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Old 10-08-2013, 05:27 PM   #11
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And I must say; you are a rock star! Eating out in the road for most of week is hard, but you are doing it! You deserve a pat on the back.
Thanks! Its hard sometimes but planning is key I think. I plan my week on the plane ride out, and plan the weekend on the ride home. Luckily my husband and daughter are really supportive. They enjoy trying new recipes with me.
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Old 10-08-2013, 05:46 PM   #12
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You may need to cut calories. Everything else sounds very good. I am 43 yo, 5'5" and have been eating around 1400 cal or so/day and I lose pretty well. I haven't heard that one should eat their BMR. I don't see why that's necessary when you are tring to lose weight. I estimate my TDEE to be about 2000 kcal/day, BMR maybe 1600-1700, I can't remember exactly. A couple weeks ago I ate 1700-1800 calories most days and I did not lose. I'm not diabetic but I do take metformin ER for PCOS/insulin resistance. I do eat one higher cal day a week most weeks though, to help thyroid function, though I'm not officially hypothyroid yet. DH has Hashimoto's and he has a much harder time losing during hypo phases. When he feels he's switched to hyper, he loses well. He's being treated with Amour, also takes metformin ER for diabetes.
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Old 10-08-2013, 05:56 PM   #13
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You may need to cut calories. Everything else sounds very good. I am 43 yo, 5'5" and have been eating around 1400 cal or so/day and I lose pretty well. I haven't heard that one should eat their BMR. I don't see why that's necessary when you are tring to lose weight. I estimate my TDEE to be about 2000 kcal/day, BMR maybe 1600-1700, I can't remember exactly. A couple weeks ago I ate 1700-1800 calories most days and I did not lose. I'm not diabetic but I do take metformin ER for PCOS/insulin resistance. I do eat one higher cal day a week most weeks though, to help thyroid function, though I'm not officially hypothyroid yet. DH has Hashimoto's and he has a much harder time losing during hypo phases. When he feels he's switched to hyper, he loses well. He's being treated with Amour, also takes metformin ER for diabetes.
Thanks misti for the input I appreciate it. I may indeed need to cut calories. The thyroid thing makes me crazy...up down up down. I was on armour, then got switched. If I do cut calories it will probably be in increments of 100, gradually, until I find that sweet spot.
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Old 10-08-2013, 06:23 PM   #14
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I'm not sure what BMR is. Sorry. I am 42, female, and 5'4. I currently weigh 205. My calories tracker says I need to eat 2000 calories per day to lose weight. When I put in what I want my weight to be at goal(150) it says that I can eat 1800 calories per day. I just try to stay between those two numbers. If I go under 1800, my weight loss slows. I think this only works with HF/MP/LC.
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Old 10-09-2013, 05:58 AM   #15
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Hi OP, I am hypothyroid too, I have found taking my meds at regular times first thing in the morning and not eating for 3 hours works best for me, nothing but water or at a stretch a coffee! I was exhausted before that, my doctor had told me to take thyroid meds one hour before eating which worked ok. But i had a look around the net and there were people who's docs had told them to take their meds with food which prevents absorption. I feel so much better now and everything is much more consistent. I found the longer i go without eating the more energetic i feel.

You may already do something like that but if not is it worth trying out? Its pretty easy for me as i don't eat breakfast.

As to the weight thing your health sounds like its improved so good for you! Thats the most important thing! I'm doing keto because I read a study where it improved things for women with PCOS plus i want to be a skinny minnie! I would recommend watching the cals.

I also read that fat fast can help those who are very carb sensitive to get started and help determine how insulin resistant you really are. Now i'm not saying you should or shouldn't do it as its a really tough programme, I started out planning to do a fat fast but was so hungry i just couldn't. But it may help you to gauge whats going on.

Also do you weigh and measure everything? My husband thinks i'm psychotic but everything goes onto my electric scales before it goes anywhere near my mouth. I'm not very good at eyeballing (trying to learn) so it helps me to be as accurate as possible with what goes into my food log.

I haven't been on keto very long but did manage to lose weight slowly with calorie counting because i logged everything, i'm thinking of donating my food diary to science!!
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Old 10-09-2013, 09:49 AM   #16
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Hi OP, I am hypothyroid too, I have found taking my meds at regular times first thing in the morning and not eating for 3 hours works best for me, nothing but water or at a stretch a coffee! I was exhausted before that, my doctor had told me to take thyroid meds one hour before eating which worked ok. But i had a look around the net and there were people who's docs had told them to take their meds with food which prevents absorption. I feel so much better now and everything is much more consistent. I found the longer i go without eating the more energetic i feel.

You may already do something like that but if not is it worth trying out? Its pretty easy for me as i don't eat breakfast.

As to the weight thing your health sounds like its improved so good for you! Thats the most important thing! I'm doing keto because I read a study where it improved things for women with PCOS plus i want to be a skinny minnie! I would recommend watching the cals.

I also read that fat fast can help those who are very carb sensitive to get started and help determine how insulin resistant you really are. Now i'm not saying you should or shouldn't do it as its a really tough programme, I started out planning to do a fat fast but was so hungry i just couldn't. But it may help you to gauge whats going on.

Also do you weigh and measure everything? My husband thinks i'm psychotic but everything goes onto my electric scales before it goes anywhere near my mouth. I'm not very good at eyeballing (trying to learn) so it helps me to be as accurate as possible with what goes into my food log.

I haven't been on keto very long but did manage to lose weight slowly with calorie counting because i logged everything, i'm thinking of donating my food diary to science!!
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Old 10-09-2013, 05:27 PM   #17
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Hi OP, I am hypothyroid too, I have found taking my meds at regular times first thing in the morning and not eating for 3 hours works best for me, nothing but water or at a stretch a coffee! I was exhausted before that, my doctor had told me to take thyroid meds one hour before eating which worked ok. But i had a look around the net and there were people who's docs had told them to take their meds with food which prevents absorption. I feel so much better now and everything is much more consistent. I found the longer i go without eating the more energetic i feel.

You may already do something like that but if not is it worth trying out? Its pretty easy for me as i don't eat breakfast.

As to the weight thing your health sounds like its improved so good for you! Thats the most important thing! I'm doing keto because I read a study where it improved things for women with PCOS plus i want to be a skinny minnie! I would recommend watching the cals.

I also read that fat fast can help those who are very carb sensitive to get started and help determine how insulin resistant you really are. Now i'm not saying you should or shouldn't do it as its a really tough programme, I started out planning to do a fat fast but was so hungry i just couldn't. But it may help you to gauge whats going on.

Also do you weigh and measure everything? My husband thinks i'm psychotic but everything goes onto my electric scales before it goes anywhere near my mouth. I'm not very good at eyeballing (trying to learn) so it helps me to be as accurate as possible with what goes into my food log.

I haven't been on keto very long but did manage to lose weight slowly with calorie counting because i logged everything, i'm thinking of donating my food diary to science!!
Thanks so much for your input! You give some great info and advise. I actually am very regular on taking my meds at the same time every day, and I do take the thyroid meds before eating in the morning, by a couple of hours. I think there are more dosage adjustments that need to be made.

I have beena religious logger / portioner as well, a,most to the point of obssession. I am thinking I will probably need to dial back my calories a bit...might also need to cut out snacks and do two or three meals. Today I had no snacks, just meals and my bg was 88 this evening. Woot! I did some lurking on the diabetes boards today and think I may want to also read some Bernstein.

I've been having some terrible edema/swelling in my lower extremities (below the knees) this week too. It seems as though my ankles have gone somewhere to hide, because I surely can't find them right now.

Thanks again. You are a great group.
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Old 10-09-2013, 11:18 PM   #18
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I've been having some terrible edema/swelling in my lower extremities (below the knees) this week too. It seems as though my ankles have gone somewhere to hide, because I surely can't find them right now.
Since you log your food, are you getting enough sodium? Since a low-carb diet causes the kidneys to dump fluids, you lose a lot of sodium on this diet and you need to replace it. Dr. Phinney recommends 5 grams of sodium daily, so if you're not getting enough, try having a cup of broth (or two) every day and see if that helps.
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Old 10-10-2013, 02:11 AM   #19
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why thank you Jennafun sometimes being "afflicted" (as my darling sensitive husband calls me) can come in use!!!
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Old 10-12-2013, 03:39 PM   #20
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Hi, Jenn!

You didn't mention (unless I missed it) how many grams of fat you are eating each day. If I eat too much fat, I gain weight, even when protein and carbs are where they belong.
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Old 10-14-2013, 06:14 PM   #21
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Hi, Jenn!

You didn't mention (unless I missed it) how many grams of fat you are eating each day. If I eat too much fat, I gain weight, even when protein and carbs are where they belong.
Hi Rebecca. I vary in my fat a lot, due to the travel schedule I keep. In looking back at my logs I have been swinging between 95 & 175g fat in a day.

It all is really quite the learning game isn't it? I am really trying hard to learn how this wonderful miraculous thing that is my body works, and what it needs to hum along healthily.
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Old 10-15-2013, 06:08 AM   #22
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Hi Nill4me. Great post! Much of what you say rings true for me. It can be very frustrating. I too, feel like I have hypothyroid "attacks," and I have found them to be strongly associated with when I have wheat. Of course, being low carb is low gluten anyway, but even a microscopic amount (think cross-contamination from restaurant cutting board) causes problems for about 5 days. I also tend to get very dehydrated when I fly, so I have to pay special attention to water intake on travel days. Long story short: flying and eating out in unfamiliar restaurants = bloating, tummy upset, cold and foggy, no weight loss. The best solution I have so far is to tell every waiter and waitress that I have celiac and to drink water before, during and after my flight. Oh, I also pack GF snacks and packets of GF soy sauce. I hope that helps!
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Old 10-15-2013, 07:02 AM   #23
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Hi Nill4me. Great post! Much of what you say rings true for me. It can be very frustrating. I too, feel like I have hypothyroid "attacks," and I have found them to be strongly associated with when I have wheat. Of course, being low carb is low gluten anyway, but even a microscopic amount (think cross-contamination from restaurant cutting board) causes problems for about 5 days. I also tend to get very dehydrated when I fly, so I have to pay special attention to water intake on travel days. Long story short: flying and eating out in unfamiliar restaurants = bloating, tummy upset, cold and foggy, no weight loss. The best solution I have so far is to tell every waiter and waitress that I have celiac and to drink water before, during and after my flight. Oh, I also pack GF snacks and packets of GF soy sauce. I hope that helps!
Hi NC...thanks so much for the advise...I do appreciate it. I have what my endo calls chronic thyroiditis...and end up having thyroid attacks regularly that are only cured (so far) by time, and alieviated only slightly by taking anti-inflammatories.

I am actually to the point that I do not eat out anymore, except for lunch on Mondays...and that is usually well planned. My lunch partner is really flexible, and knows i'm "picky" on what I'm eating these days...so thats great. Good idea on the celliac.

Usually I do pack myself some string cheese, macadamia nuts and/or pecans for the flight. then i go out for lunch, and then I go to the grocery on my way to the hotel. I always stay in a hotel with at minimum a mini-fridge and a microwave, but usually an extended stay with a kitchenette....which helps quite a bit. It gives me the control I need to have...which (as you are aware), eating out does not.

I picked up some diabetic/compression socks last week...wore them on a 4 hour drive to my sister's house friday. They worked out great....I am going to try them this friday when flying too. that may be an addition to my travel wardrobe...as sexy as they are...LOL

I think I am still really struggling to find the right balance of protein, carbs and fat to make this all work. My average glucose reading has been steadily dropping, so i know that is great. I've not be able to test for ketones this week, as my flight cancellation friday forced me to layover and i only packed 4 ketone test strips. grr. Some days I am hungry...others I am full and bloated.

Its all such a learning process!
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Old 10-15-2013, 07:40 AM   #24
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Hi Rebecca. I vary in my fat a lot, due to the travel schedule I keep. In looking back at my logs I have been swinging between 95 & 175g fat in a day.
Keep this in mind:

In the absence of dietary fat, your body will "feed" off your body fat. So if you are eating 175g of fat in a day, that is a day when there is so much dietary fat that you will not lose body fat.

Of course, everyone is different, but if you find that you don't seem to be losing well, eating too much fat may be the culprit.
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Old 10-15-2013, 08:56 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by RebeccaLatham View Post
Keep this in mind:

In the absence of dietary fat, your body will "feed" off your body fat. So if you are eating 175g of fat in a day, that is a day when there is so much dietary fat that you will not lose body fat.

Of course, everyone is different, but if you find that you don't seem to be losing well, eating too much fat may be the culprit.
Thanks Rebecca...I will definitely keep that in mind, and keep my eye on those fat grams.
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Old 10-15-2013, 10:27 PM   #26
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Thanks Rebecca...I will definitely keep that in mind, and keep my eye on those fat grams.
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Old 10-17-2013, 10:29 AM   #27
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From a blood sugar perspective (and I'm going to be very simplistic here but there are books and studies you can get to back it up...I love Bernstein's "Diabetes Solution")...

A 'normal' person, the liver will monitor the glucose in the blood and about every 5 hours, if you don't eat, will kick some glucose into your blood stream. One article suggested getting up in the middle of the night and consuming some small thing with 4-5 carbs would reduce the 'dawn phenomena'. I can't say as I haven't tried it.

Also, in a 'normal' person, the liver will send excess protein into the blood as glucose if there isn't enough. Otherwise it just sends it to the fat cells (assuming you're eating too many calories). In a diabetic (and this really is a *very* simplistic explanation), the machinery is broke and the liver will say "Oh...you have enough glucose? That's ok...have some more."

A bad night's sleep or stress are serious enemies for a diabetic. They can raise BG levels faster than excess carbs. My A1c in July was 4.9 and my BG was running 85-90 consistently. Then the last 2 weeks of August, I was under a lot of stress (I hate my husband's employer...a local community college) and not getting enough sleep and, no joke, my BG's started running around 125-30. Nothing else had changed except my stress and lack of sleep. They finally settled their contract, things went back to normal...and my BG's went back down as immediately as my stress and better sleeping went back to normal.

Pain is right up there with sleep and stress. If you're dealing with chronic pain, that will keep the BG's up.

I follow Bernstein's protocol (sort of...he's low fat and I do high fat) as far as 1-1.5gm of protein per kilo of ideal weight, less than 25gm of carbs per day and then only from non-starchy vegies. 3 meals eaten at roughly the same time every day. No more than 4-5 oz of protein at a meal. Also, watch how much you drink at a meal. Bernstein says belly distention (even if only from water) will cause a rise in BG. My fats usually run around 73% of my total calories.
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Old 10-17-2013, 10:42 AM   #28
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I just checked to see if I am within the protein rec. My goal weight is 136, which equals 61.6886 kg. So I should eat between 61.7 and 92.5 grams of protein per day.

Currently, I am eating 90 grams of protein per day.

Also, I eat 25 grams (or less) of carbs each day. I am also eating high fat. My normal day looks like this, and it is controlling my blood sugar:

120g fat (70.1%)
90g protein (23.4%)
25g total carbs (not net) (6.5%)
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Old 10-17-2013, 01:14 PM   #29
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Hi nill4me, just checking in to see how you are doing?
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Old 10-18-2013, 03:10 AM   #30
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Hi nill4me, just checking in to see how you are doing?
Hi there. I am ok! I do appreciate all of the input. Its been quite the rollercoaster these last couple of weeks. My flight home last friday was cancelled, so I had to drive to my sisters fr the weekend. I ran out of synthroid and metformin, and had to beg a 7 day supply off of her local pharmacy. I've ended up with a rotten cold to boot. I sound like a whiner...lol

I am SO glad to be going home this weekend!

I've been reading Bernsteins diabetes diet lately and find it interesting that he has you dialing back protein for weightloss. But this is in context of lower fat I believe. I am hovering around 72g right now.

I see my endo next month. We will see what he thinks about my bg and thyroid levels. I know that my weekly bg average has dropped from 140s to around 112. Woot!

I've not been able to test ketones as I ran out of those last week too.
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