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Old 10-04-2013, 01:40 PM   #1
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How much Protein?@

Hi All,
I'm very new to the Forum. Have been doing Atkins / NK since June '13. I have no problems keeping my carbs down. I test BS / K with a Blood Glucose Meter. BS are great, K could be better (0.4 mmol/L fasted consistently).
My one problem at the moment is, How Much Protein?

I have done so much reading/research and there are so many differing opinions, my head hurts
My range could be anywhere between 50g - 150g pure protein

Please tell me if any of you lovely people know what your 'ideal' pro requirement is and how you found it
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Old 10-04-2013, 07:44 PM   #2
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how much protein

You are right, there is a wide range. However, from all my reading it appears that to really get into NK, you must replace a lot of your protein with fat. I fat fasted for 7 days and got to 3.5 (which really surprised me!) I didn't go above 30 grams of protein on any of those days. I was staying at around 1000-1100 calories.
I am now on a few days of Atkins induction, and then am going to fat fast again for 5 days. This method is mentioned in Dana Carpender's book as a regimen the nurse practitioner who worked with Dr Atkins is still using today in her clinic for those who have the metabolism issues I seem to have. She said to do fat fast during the week, and weekends do Atkins induction menus. For the Atkins days I am raising the protein, but not much more on the carbs, and I won't be counting the calories. I hope it works!
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Old 10-04-2013, 07:49 PM   #3
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I use my lean body mass (I get a dunk test every four or so months to keep track), and use that to determine my protein goal, and go from there.

I have a LBM of about 154, and a goal weight of about 190, and my loose protein goal is about 120g/day.
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Old 10-05-2013, 07:20 AM   #4
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I used The Optimal Diet formula to find my protein needs. At 5'3", the OD says I should eat 54-66 grams of protein. I tried it at around 55, but found I was losing a little lean mass, so I upped it to 70 grams per day and I am gaining lean mass a little better.

In the past, too much protein has caused my blood sugar to rise.

I am JUDDDing right now, so I eat 28g of protein every other day and 112g of protein every other day.
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Old 10-05-2013, 07:21 AM   #5
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If you would like to share your height, I could tell you what the OD recommendation is for you.
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Old 10-05-2013, 08:47 AM   #6
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That would be fantastic Rebecca, Thank You, these are my stats:
I'm 5'5"
Start weight 199lb, Current weight 168lb, Goal 147lb.
At the moment my macros are 10% carbs / 20% pro / 70% fat / 1400 cals.
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Old 10-05-2013, 08:53 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by orbecky View Post
You are right, there is a wide range. However, from all my reading it appears that to really get into NK, you must replace a lot of your protein with fat. I fat fasted for 7 days and got to 3.5 (which really surprised me!) I didn't go above 30 grams of protein on any of those days. I was staying at around 1000-1100 calories.
I am now on a few days of Atkins induction, and then am going to fat fast again for 5 days. This method is mentioned in Dana Carpender's book as a regimen the nurse practitioner who worked with Dr Atkins is still using today in her clinic for those who have the metabolism issues I seem to have. She said to do fat fast during the week, and weekends do Atkins induction menus. For the Atkins days I am raising the protein, but not much more on the carbs, and I won't be counting the calories. I hope it works!

How did you feel during your FF? I just started mine today. I'm aiming to do three days for now, if I feel fine I'll do five. Reason being that I cannot take time off work at the moment if I'm poorly.
I lost weight quite rapidly to start with, 31lb in the first three months. Now it's come to a screeching halt, hence the FF.
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Old 10-05-2013, 10:40 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by RebeccaLatham View Post
I used The Optimal Diet formula to find my protein needs. At 5'3", the OD says I should eat 54-66 grams of protein. I tried it at around 55, but found I was losing a little lean mass, so I upped it to 70 grams per day and I am gaining lean mass a little better.

In the past, too much protein has caused my blood sugar to rise.

I am JUDDDing right now, so I eat 28g of protein every other day and 112g of protein every other day.
Where can I find the Optimal Diet Formula please? And how did you find out that you were losing LBM?
I've been testing BS for a little while and it's very acceptable and steady, fasted/1hr post meal/2hr post meal.
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Old 10-05-2013, 10:42 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by Checkoutchick View Post
That would be fantastic Rebecca, Thank You, these are my stats:
I'm 5'5"
Start weight 199lb, Current weight 168lb, Goal 147lb.
At the moment my macros are 10% carbs / 20% pro / 70% fat / 1400 cals.
For your height, the Optimal Diet suggests 65-72 grams of protein daily. If you are like me, you may want to raise the upper end to 77 or so.

It also says that a woman of your height should ideally weigh 144 pounds. So your goal weight seems right on track!

About the ratios - Ratios and percentages do not matter. All that matters are the absolute numbers of the macros. So figure out how many grams of protein you need, add in the amount of carbs you have decided to eat, or that you can tolerate, and then add enough fat to feel satiated.

What the ratio of these macros are to each other does not matter, nor do the percentages of the macros. Eating too much or too little for your needs makes the ratios and macros meaningless.

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Old 10-05-2013, 11:02 PM   #10
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See, and I can't go by that formula at all. I'm 5'6", but because of my build, I need more proteins and have a higher goal weight. My LBM is higher than the suggested goal weight!

I'm not commenting on whether it's right for you, just saying it's not a universal thing.
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Old 10-05-2013, 11:11 PM   #11
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I would say that it is a good starting place for a "normally muscled" woman. If a woman has more muscle weight than a typical woman, she will need to eat more protein than the OD suggests.

For instance, at one point, I was lifting weights and had ten more pounds of lean mass than I do at present. I could have more body fat then, too, and still have a lower body fat percentage than I do now.

It depends on what your goals are. Just out of curiosity, Ntombi, do you know what your body fat is now, and what your goal for body fat and overall weight is?
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Old 10-05-2013, 11:19 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Checkoutchick View Post
Where can I find the Optimal Diet Formula please? And how did you find out that you were losing LBM?
I've been testing BS for a little while and it's very acceptable and steady, fasted/1hr post meal/2hr post meal.
I found the formula on the website for the Optimal Diet, which I don't think I am allowed to share here. But I created a spreadsheet using the OD numbers. If you would like to tell me your height, I could tell you what the numbers are.

I know that I was losing lean body mass by using the US NAVY calculation for body fat percentage. This calculation uses neck, waist and hip measurements for women to estimate body fat and lean mass. The calculation works for most people, unless they are severely obese, and then the numbers get rather skewed.

So, if I am losing weight, but not inches, I am gaining body fat and/or losing lean mass. If I am losing inches, but not weight, I am losing body fat and/or gaining lean mass.
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Old 10-06-2013, 12:23 AM   #13
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I would say that it is a good starting place for a "normally muscled" woman. If a woman has more muscle weight than a typical woman, she will need to eat more protein than the OD suggests.

For instance, at one point, I was lifting weights and had ten more pounds of lean mass than I do at present. I could have more body fat then, too, and still have a lower body fat percentage than I do now.

It depends on what your goals are. Just out of curiosity, Ntombi, do you know what your body fat is now, and what your goal for body fat and overall weight is?
I don't disagree, but build and muscle mass do vary, so I'm leery of a one weight fits all approach. I have a very large frame, and naturally tend toward a muscular build. Punkin is my same height, with a very small build and not a lot of muscle, so her goal weight (with the same BF% goal) is something like 120, I believe. We're two ends of the spectrum, both with reasonable goals for our bodies.

I have 154 lbs of LBM and about 150 lbs of fat right now. I'm working hard to keep my LBM and lose only fat, and aiming for a low-average BF% of 20 at goal, which would put me at about 190 lbs. I get my BF% tested about thrice a year, to make sure I'm still on track. Since February, I've only lost about half a pound of LBM and over fifty pounds of fat, so so far, so good. Because I'm restricted from exercise due to medical issues, I have to do it all via diet. That's why I make sure not to undereat protein.
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Old 10-06-2013, 03:46 AM   #14
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For your height, the Optimal Diet suggests 65-72 grams of protein daily. If you are like me, you may want to raise the upper end to 77 or so.

It also says that a woman of your height should ideally weigh 144 pounds. So your goal weight seems right on track!

About the ratios - Ratios and percentages do not matter. All that matters are the absolute numbers of the macros. So figure out how many grams of protein you need, add in the amount of carbs you have decided to eat, or that you can tolerate, and then add enough fat to feel satiated.

What the ratio of these macros are to each other does not matter, nor do the percentages of the macros. Eating too much or too little for your needs makes the ratios and macros meaningless.

That's very helpful, Thank you
It's reassuring too as I struggle to stay below 60g pro. My body seems to be happiest around the 70g mark and it doesn't stop me from losing.
I ordered some Body Fat Callipers to find out my BF %.
And I'll look up the OD website.

The reason for the ratios is, I've been reading Jimmy Moore's blog and Sten Sture Skaldeman. There seems to be huge emphasis on keeping ratios up.
The thing is, although I want to shed another 21-25lb, I'm also thinking ahead as to how to furnish a woe long term without putting the weight back on. And I can't imagine having to track my macros and ratios forever.

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Old 10-06-2013, 03:56 AM   #15
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I don't use ratios either. I look at absolute values, which IMO, is much more helpful. The thing to remember is that when you still have excess fat, your body will be burning some of that fat for fuel, and it's not easy to know exactly how much. Also, I don't count calories, and my calories can vary quite a bit, depending on how hungry I'm feeling and how much fat I have that day. But since my carbs and proteins stay about the same daily, the ratios can look quite different, which is fine.

I don't track daily, or even monthly. When you get more used to it, I find it's easier to stay within your goals without counting or weighing everything you eat. I'll plug stuff into my app every so often, just to make sure I'm eating what I think I'm eating, or when I'm eating a food I don't eat too often. Otherwise, I know what I need to eat to stay below 20g of carbs, and get about 120g of protein per day.

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Old 10-06-2013, 09:42 AM   #16
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I don't use ratios either. I look at absolute values, which IMO, is much more helpful. The thing to remember is that when you still have excess fat, your body will be burning some of that fat for fuel, and it's not easy to know exactly how much. Also, I don't count calories, and my calories can vary quite a bit, depending on how hungry I'm feeling and how much fat I have that day. But since my carbs and proteins stay about the same daily, the ratios can look quite different, which is fine.

I don't track daily, or even monthly. When you get more used to it, I find it's easier to stay within your goals without counting or weighing everything you eat. I'll plug stuff into my app every so often, just to make sure I'm eating what I think I'm eating, or when I'm eating a food I don't eat too often. Otherwise, I know what I need to eat to stay below 20g of carbs, and get about 120g of protein per day.
So you have a 'set amount' of protein and carbs and then eat until you're satisfied? Ie making p the difference with fat? Sounds good to me. It's the way I want to eat once I've figured out the best amounts of pro and carbs for me.
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Old 10-06-2013, 12:56 PM   #17
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Yes.

I focus on getting enough protein in every day to keep my muscles nourished. I don't always succeed, but I'm close enough most days. The rest is optional, meaning I might have veggies or dairy (my two main sources of carbs), or not. I don't have a minimum, as long as I don't go above 20g total. My fat intake is flexible too. I try to listen to my body and eat more when I'm hungrier, less when I'm not, so my daily calories fluctuate by as much as 1000 sometimes, though I average 1800-2000 with some outliers.
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Old 10-06-2013, 06:55 PM   #18
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I found the formula on the website for the Optimal Diet, which I don't think I am allowed to share here. But I created a spreadsheet using the OD numbers. If you would like to tell me your height, I could tell you what the numbers are.

I know that I was losing lean body mass by using the US NAVY calculation for body fat percentage. This calculation uses neck, waist and hip measurements for women to estimate body fat and lean mass. The calculation works for most people, unless they are severely obese, and then the numbers get rather skewed.

So, if I am losing weight, but not inches, I am gaining body fat and/or losing lean mass. If I am losing inches, but not weight, I am losing body fat and/or gaining lean mass.
Can you tell me what they recommend for me? I am 5'10". Thanks!
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Old 10-06-2013, 11:07 PM   #19
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Can you tell me what they recommend for me? I am 5'10". Thanks!
70-86 grams of protein per day.
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Old 10-07-2013, 01:08 PM   #20
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70-86 grams of protein per day.
That's right where I was thinking - thanks!
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Old 10-07-2013, 05:42 PM   #21
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That's right where I was thinking - thanks!
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Old 10-07-2013, 07:00 PM   #22
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Rebecca,

I've made a spreadsheet following the Optimal Diet formula. Do you just go with the Ideal Weight? or do you also calculate the =/- 6 kg from the ideal weight and then the low/high of the ratios for Protein, Fat and Carbs?

At 65 inches, to ideal weight of 65.1 kgs, if I'm calculating correctly

P - 59.1 to 71.1 grams

On Fat the ratio is 2.5 to 3.5 so based on the above you could then go as low as -
147.75 to 248.85 grams

And on Carbs, the ratio is .5 to .8 so you could go as low as -
29.55 to 56.88 grams


Am I on the right track? :O

TIA

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Old 10-07-2013, 08:28 PM   #23
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Your numbers seem to be computed slightly different than mine, but are very close!

This from my blog on the formula:

The basic premise is this: First, you figure out how many grams of protein you should be eating based on Dr. Kwasniewski's formula. Then you use these ratios to figure out how many grams of fat and grams of carbs you should be eating:

PROTEIN : FAT : CARBS
1 : 2.5 - 3.5 : 0.5

I'll use myself as an example and show you how I came up with my numbers. I am 5'3" tall, which is the same as 160 cm. To arrive at my "due body weight", I subtract 100 cm from my 160 cm, and I get 60 cm. The number 60 is now the amount of kilograms I should weigh. I decided a while back that I wanted to weigh 132 pounds with 25% body fat. And guess what! My goal weight of 132 pounds equals 60 kg, which is exactly what Dr. Kwasniewski's says I should weigh! Interesting...

So, now my magic number is 60, which I can adjust up or down 10%, so for me, that is 6. I decided to adjust my number to 66, because I can.

This means I am allowed to eat 66 grams of protein per day.

Now I use the number 66 to figure out how many grams of fat I should eat per day:

66 x 2.5 = 165 grams of fat
66 x 3.5 = 231 grams of fat

So, this means I should eat between 165 and 231 grams of fat.

Now I use the number 66 to figure out how many grams of carbs I should eat per day.

66 x 0.5 = 33 grams of carbs

The doctor's website is not clear on whether I should eat 33 grams of total carbs or 33 grams of net carbs, but someone on the Atkins Forum said that they heard somewhere that it was net carbs, which is total carbs minus fiber. Just to be on the safe side, I am counting 20 net carbs, which goes along with the Atkins Induction Phase.

If I use the lower number of fat grams (protein grams x 2.5), my day would look like this:

1881 calories
165g fat (79%)
66g protein (14%)
33g carbs (7%)
13g fiber
20 net carbs

If I use the higher number of fat grams (protein grams x 3.5), my day would look like this:
2475 calories
231g fat (84%)
66g protein (10.7%)
33g carbs (5.3%)
13g fiber
20g net carbs

So how does The Optimal Diet measure up to The Atkins Nutritional Approach?

The basic guidelines of Atkins are that a women should eat between 1500 and 1800 calories per day, with 60-70% of calories coming from fat, and 45 grams total carbs, 25 grams fiber, which will equal 20 grams of net carbs. These are starting recommendations, and can be adjusted if you are shorter, which I am.

According to the low end of Atkins recommendations (lowest protein and lower end of calories), my day would look like this:

1500 calories
115g fat (69%)
71g protein (19%)
45g carbs (12%)
25g fiber
20 net carbs

According to the high end of Atkins recommendations (highest protein and higher end of calories), my day would look like this:

1800 calories
114g fat (57%)
149g protein (33%)
45g carbs (10%)
25g fiber
20 net carbs

The Atkins protein recommendations for a woman my height are between 71 and 149 grams of protein per day.

The Optimal Diet protein recommendations for a woman my height are between 54 and 66 grams of protein per day, so only a few grams less than Atkins.

The Atkins fat recommendations are 60-70%.
The Optimal Diet recommendations are 79-84%. Obviously higher.

The carbs are in the same range for both diets.

Anyway, I'm going to try it and see if it is true that I have been eating too much protein all this time and that is why I have trouble losing weight.
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Old 10-08-2013, 03:34 AM   #24
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That's a very helpful post, thank you Rebecca.
I've worked out my goals based on OD:
162.7 cm height
62.7 kg ideal bw
62.7g pro + 10% = 69g (I'm happy with that)
172.5g - 241.5g fat range
34.5g carbs (UK total carbs)
Calorie range = 1964 - 2585

I could see the lower end working in Maintenance but not for Weightloss.
So should I reduce the amount of fat to bring down my total calories to say 1500?
That way I would still be eating the appropriate amount of protein and carbs would be low enough to stay in NK.
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Old 10-08-2013, 08:00 PM   #25
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When I did this, I used the middle range of grams of fat, which for me was 185 grams. I found that it was too much fat for me to lose weight, and I reduced the fat grams to 15 grams below the lowest amount of fat for my height. At that point, I did start losing weight.

Also, I have recently increased my protein just a few grams from the highest amount recommended for me, which was 66 grams. So now I am eating 70 grams of protein and I have stopped losing lean mass and have even gained a little.

I think your plan sounds good. Of course, there is only one way to find out.
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Old 10-08-2013, 08:47 PM   #26
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Super interesting. Thanks for the info.
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Old 10-09-2013, 05:16 PM   #27
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Ok, have this figured out. Recalculating from my height this is what I get based on the OD formula:

165.1 cm height
65.1 kg ideal bw
65.1g Protein + 10% = 71.6g
179g - 251g for fat range
33 to 36g for carbs

I went to a website to check my daily calorie requirements and it was: 1,916 per day
My calorie goals are: 1,500 - 1,800 per day

I'm going to start at 1,500 calories and go from there and will try to limit my carbs to 25 as I really don't think carbs agree with me.

Thanks to all for helping me find my goals!
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Old 10-09-2013, 09:03 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ice View Post
Ok, have this figured out. Recalculating from my height this is what I get based on the OD formula:

165.1 cm height
65.1 kg ideal bw
65.1g Protein + 10% = 71.6g
179g - 251g for fat range
33 to 36g for carbs

I went to a website to check my daily calorie requirements and it was: 1,916 per day
My calorie goals are: 1,500 - 1,800 per day

I'm going to start at 1,500 calories and go from there and will try to limit my carbs to 25 as I really don't think carbs agree with me.

Thanks to all for helping me find my goals!
Personally, I do not put any stock in the websites that tell you how many calories to eat. They are based on faulty "science" that claims that all calories are alike and that a calorie is an actual thing in the human body, which it is not.

However, the body does recognize and use fat, protein and carbs in different ways, so I do go by that.

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Old 10-09-2013, 09:12 PM   #29
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Rebecca, did you ever get the blood ketone strips?
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Old 10-09-2013, 11:56 PM   #30
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WOE: Nutritional ketosis
Start Date: April 2011
I have a question....for a long time, I've been shooting for 150 lb. as my ultimate goal weight, but my mini-goal is 175 lbs. Should I be figuring my protein on the basis of 175 lbs. or 150?
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