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-   -   Difference between Atkins and Nutritional Ketosis? (http://www.lowcarbfriends.com/bbs/nutritional-ketosis-high-fat-low-carb/810591-difference-between-atkins-nutritional-ketosis.html)

spoiltmomof2 08-23-2013 09:24 AM

Difference between Atkins and Nutritional Ketosis?
 
What is the difference between Atkins and Nutritional Ketosis?

lovetoknit 08-23-2013 09:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spoiltmomof2 (Post 16571463)
What is the difference between Atkins and Nutritional Ketosis?

The new Atkins encourages more vegetables and more protein. NK limits carbs even more than Atkins, and encourages eating more fat to fill in your calories. It also limits protein somewhat depending on what you can tolerate and still lose weight. The New Atkins also allows for more vegetable oils but NK encourages more saturated fat. Also you go up a carb ladder with Atkins, but with NK you pretty much stay the same.
Carolyn

spoiltmomof2 08-23-2013 10:14 AM

Where can I read more about this and find sample menus?

emel 08-23-2013 12:25 PM

Nutritional ketosis is the physical state of burning fats for fuel instead of glucose. A nutritional ketosis lifestyle is one which keeps a person in that physical state--adequate but not excessive protein, low carbs, and fats for the rest of the food.

Atkins is a ketogenic plan as long as OWL additions are kept within the guidelines of eating for nutrtitional ketosis. Phinney, Volek, and Westman wrote the newest version of Atkins. They are among the top of the field of nutritional ketosis researchers and advocates. The differences are that NK folks often rely on blood ketone readings to make sure their blood ketone levels stay in the correct range, and they often count fat, protein, and carb grams and look at the ratios of those nutrients in addition to the absolute, actual values. On the other side, Atkins folks can eat from the approved food lists and follow the rules of how many carbs to have.

So really they are just about the same (except for some of the OWL part of Atkins), but there are different ways to stay accountable to the plan--Atkins' food list and advice (like eating to satisfaction and not beyond) and NK's blood ketone levels and paying attention to macronutrients (fat, protein, and carbs.... and alcohol is a macronutrient too, by the way).

And one other difference is that the newest Atkins really pushes salad veggies and other veggies, whereas the NK folks say there's no need to eat veggies unless you want them or if they round out your meal in a way that satisfies you while staying within the guidelines.

emel 08-23-2013 12:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spoiltmomof2 (Post 16571529)
Where can I read more about this and find sample menus?

It's hard to find a page with appropriate meal plans because you need to compute your protein needs and then use that number to figure out what to eat.

Here's a meal plan for someone with a goal weight of about 120 or less:
Carbs – 30 grams (net) = 120 calories = 8%
Protein – 61.5 grams = 246 calories = 16%
Fat – 126 grams = 1,134 calories = 76%

Breakfast Scramble
3 slices bacon
1 egg
1 cup chopped kale
1/4 of an onion
1/2 avocado
2 tsp bacon grease to fry it up in

Lunch (Coconut Curry Salmon)
3 oz baked salmon
1 tsp curry paste
1/3 cup canned coconut milk
2 tbs coconut butter/manna melted on top
1 cup mushrooms
1 cup cabbage

Dinner (Steak and Carrots)
3 oz eye of round steak with some fat left on it
1 large carrot sliced up, sautéed
2 tbs beef tallow to cook it all in and/or drizzle over
1/2 avocado


This next meal plan is 149 g protein, 221 g fat, and 24 g carbs. It would be appropriate for someone lightly active with a goal weight of 200 lbs., or a heavy exerciser with a goal weight of 150

Day 1 Menu

Breakfast

2 eggs, fried in butter
1 ounce of chopped onion, or other low carb vegetable
1 oz of full fat cheese
4 slices bacon
coffee with 1 oz heavy cream
Lunch

3 cups of salad greens
6 oz chicken breast strips, cooked in butter or olive oil
4 T high fat, low carb salad dressing
1 ounce of full fat cheese
1 celery stalk with 1 oz cream cheese
water or unsweetened flavored sparkling water or other unsweetened beverage
Dinner

6 oz grilled or pan fried steak
mushrooms sauteed in butter
broccoli or other low carb vegetable
water or unsweetened flavored sparkling water or other unsweetened beverage
coffee with heavy cream

spoiltmomof2 08-23-2013 06:30 PM

Thanks! I ordered the two Phinney books from Amazon today.

How does exercise/calories burned factor into the above equation? Do you need increased protein or carbs if you exercise a lot?

For example I ride a bike. I burn 700-1500 calories a day on my rides.

AnnetteW 08-23-2013 08:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spoiltmomof2 (Post 16572227)
Thanks! I ordered the two Phinney books from Amazon today.

How does exercise/calories burned factor into the above equation? Do you need increased protein or carbs if you exercise a lot?

For example I ride a bike. I burn 700-1500 calories a day on my rides.

How many hours are you biking?

If you exercise a lot, you might really enjoy the "Performance" book, and Phinney uses his bike riders in a lot of his examples.

spoiltmomof2 08-23-2013 08:29 PM

I bought that book also. A lot of days I go 4 hours depending on my schedule. I love it because its no impact so my knees never hurt:)

emel 08-24-2013 08:48 AM

Phinney and Volek say that exercise is a wellness tool, not a weight loss tool.
They endorse exercising for health, but they say that food intake is more important for losing weight.

I'll give you the rundown on the formulas they use to figure out the plan.

First, you have to decide how much protein you need. There's a minimum protein amount to eat while on a NK plan, and there's a maximum amount for those who use a lot of protein--- endurance exercisers often need more protein, sedentary folks often need less. But it's trial and error to find your best number.

The formula is 1 to 2.5 g protein per kilogram of ideal body weight (they call it 'reference weight'.

So that's ideal weight/2.2 times somewhere between 1 and 2.5.
A lot of folks start with 1.5 g and adjust as needed.

Example: 130 is a reasonable goal weight for me. I don't exercise much so I use 1.3 g protein per kg ideal weight.

130/2.2 * 1.3
130 lbs is 59 kg. 59 * 1.3=76.8 g protein. I round up to 80.

Okay next decide how many carbs you want. I do a hybrid of OWL/NK, so I do 35 max, usually 30 g a day total carbs.

So that's 320 cal from the protein and 120 cal from the carbs, for a total of 440 cal. Not enough food. So I add fats to get to the proper amount of calories. I do about 1200-1400 cal but more if I'm hungrier, so I include butter, oil, some cheese/dairy, and then the fat from nice fatty meats and eggs, avocados, etc.

It's hard to say how much of a calorie deficit you want. At first I'd just eat to satisfaction to get into the groove, and then I'd work on fine-tuning quantities based on appetite and the amount of macronutrients. 500 calorie deficit is used by many folks.

So you can figure your BMI and go from there, or you can just eat to satisfaction while sticking with your protein and carb amounts and then adding fat as needed to stay satisfied but not stuffed.

Hope this helps. Holler if you need any help. The folks on this board are friendly and wise.

Chyrie 08-29-2013 08:23 AM

I guess under that definition Emel, I eat more nutritional ketosis than atkins. I only eat veggies when I want them, and I certainly don't eat them in heaps. I limit my protein to about 75 grams a day because I want to be 120 lbs eventually and that is the protein required.

emel 09-03-2013 06:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chyrie (Post 16580119)
I guess under that definition Emel, I eat more nutritional ketosis than atkins. I only eat veggies when I want them, and I certainly don't eat them in heaps. I limit my protein to about 75 grams a day because I want to be 120 lbs eventually and that is the protein required.

That sounds good, as long as carbs from non-veggie sources are in line.
For me it would be hard to go over my carb limit without veggies, but you do have to take into account the carbs in sweeteners, cheeses, and cream, and other things some low-carbers eat, such as yogurt, nuts, alternative flours, and berries.

RebeccaLatham 09-06-2013 05:27 AM

Here is another thing to consider:

When I was doing Atkins, I sometimes lost weight (sometimes, not), but just because I was eating low carb, does not mean I was in optimal ketosis. In my case, eating too much protein was keeping me out of ketosis.

I now test my blood for ketones, and I know that I am in ketosis for sure.

clackley 09-08-2013 06:44 AM

I would also add that many people (myself included) are advocates of n.k. for the health benefits that ketosis brings aside from weight loss.


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