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Old 08-07-2013, 03:46 PM   #1
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is protein stalling ketosis

In an attempt to starve the cancer cells in a tumor, I've moved on to ketogenic approach instead of my usual low carb. I'm using a publication written by Ellen Davis and is based, as far as I can tell, upon the work of Dr Seyfried, author of "Cancer as a Metabolic Disease: On the Origin, Management, and Prevention of Cancer". However, I'm having difficulty achieving ketosis. Perhaps the problem is one of these: 1) too much protein although I'm at the bottom of the acceptable amount for my desired weight or 2) my sugar still bounces up to 140 at times even though the carb grams are below 15 daily.
Will blood sugar going that high for a few hours keep me from ketosis? Is that level just giving my body more sugar to use for energy? I can use more insulin, but don't want to because of the risk of hypoglycemia. Or the protein can be lowered to less than 50 grams daily, but I'm not sure that would help if the cortisol is the problem.

I'm sorry this is so long, but your input would be more than appreciated. This is really bothering me.
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Old 08-07-2013, 03:58 PM   #2
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My first and most important question is how are you determining whether you're in ketosis?
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Old 08-07-2013, 06:59 PM   #3
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So far, I have only the urine strips, but have ordered the precision xtra meter.
The strips indicate that I'm not getting rid of any extra ketones. I'm also concerned because my blood sugar ranges from about 75 to occasionally 140 with the 90's being the norm right now.

I'm losing weight pretty quickly, but the ketogenic diet acts as a diurectic, so I'm not convinced that any loss is due to fat loss. I've been working on this for about 10 days.
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Old 08-07-2013, 09:45 PM   #4
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In an attempt to starve the cancer cells in a tumor, I've moved on to ketogenic approach instead of my usual low carb. I'm using a publication written by Ellen Davis and is based, as far as I can tell, upon the work of Dr Seyfried, author of "Cancer as a Metabolic Disease: On the Origin, Management, and Prevention of Cancer". However, I'm having difficulty achieving ketosis. Perhaps the problem is one of these: 1) too much protein although I'm at the bottom of the acceptable amount for my desired weight or 2) my sugar still bounces up to 140 at times even though the carb grams are below 15 daily.
Will blood sugar going that high for a few hours keep me from ketosis? Is that level just giving my body more sugar to use for energy? I can use more insulin, but don't want to because of the risk of hypoglycemia. Or the protein can be lowered to less than 50 grams daily, but I'm not sure that would help if the cortisol is the problem.

I'm sorry this is so long, but your input would be more than appreciated. This is really bothering me.
Insulin will also feed the cancer cells. Try going almost no carb. Just eat the minimum amount of protein and the rest in fat. You can add butter and coconut oil to your foods and your tea or coffee to add fat. Try it and see how you feel.
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Old 08-07-2013, 10:38 PM   #5
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I'm glad you ordered the meter, because the ketostix are notorious for giving false negatives, and I wouldn't count on them in general, and especially not when it's this important.

I too would calculate my protein range and stick to the lower end of the range until you get the meter and strips. Keep to very minimal carbs.
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Old 08-07-2013, 10:58 PM   #6
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You have no idea how your reply is appreciated. I looked at my food diary again tonight and net carbs were a little under 20. But I can go lower, at least for now because I really believe that ketosis may help in reducing the tumor size.
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Old 08-08-2013, 04:14 AM   #7
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It can help to keep your protein down. If I don't eat enough fat, which seems to be a lot more that the majority of people on LCF, I will not be in ketosis. A fat fast for me will get me into ketosis, but then I can't vary what I am eating much more than that.
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Old 08-08-2013, 04:23 AM   #8
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I've no advice but wanted to wish you well and hope your dietary change helps. My mum suffered from cancer - diagnosed 3 times with different tumours and diet was never thought to be a factor at all. Glad to see times have changed.
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Old 08-08-2013, 07:17 AM   #9
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I too want to wish you well. I'm glad you ordered the Precision Xtra, and if you continue to by the sticks, they are much cheaper from Canada.

I did my first no carb day yesterday, as an experiment, and you should definitely give it a try. A few days no carb, and then you might find adding in a small salad is all you need.

I don't know what that diet tells you to do, but you can do it. Please keep up informed.
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Old 08-08-2013, 07:50 AM   #10
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I cut my morning egg (cooked in Kerrygold butter) from 2 down to 1 this morning and added a little extra butter. One food item that I believe was problematic was dill pickles. Good grief, those things were causing carb creep.

Amazingly, what I've done so far has stopped cravings. How wonderful.

Thank you for your interest. I see my surgeon today and oncologist tomorrow and will report back. but, they have to realize that this diet is my chosen way of eating and there is no backing down.

Jane
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Old 08-08-2013, 01:19 PM   #11
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I cut my morning egg (cooked in Kerrygold butter) from 2 down to 1 this morning and added a little extra butter. One food item that I believe was problematic was dill pickles. Good grief, those things were causing carb creep.

Amazingly, what I've done so far has stopped cravings. How wonderful.

Thank you for your interest. I see my surgeon today and oncologist tomorrow and will report back. but, they have to realize that this diet is my chosen way of eating and there is no backing down.

Jane
Funny how a small tweak can change things. I count dill pickles as 1 carb each, and I choose the smallest one from the jar.

Please keep us posted about how you're doing.

Melody (Aomiel) has had fantastic success lowcarbing with diabetes. You might want to search the threads she has started in the main lobby--- tons of great info. She follows Dr. Bernstein's diet, which advocates the lower side of moderate for protein amounts.
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Old 08-08-2013, 07:36 PM   #12
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Although some researchers say that is no evidence that exercise will make one lose weight, I do believe it will help control blood glucose. Must get motivated to do more walking while cutting carbs down to nothing. There goes the cauliflower and cheese. But, so worth it.
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Old 08-09-2013, 10:20 AM   #13
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You have no idea how your reply is appreciated. I looked at my food diary again tonight and net carbs were a little under 20. But I can go lower, at least for now because I really believe that ketosis may help in reducing the tumor size.
You are an inspiration. In the face of cancer you're battening down the hatches and doing what's best for your body, despite some doctors not being on board yet. You are a pioneer. I have come to NK for a very similar reason, to everything I can to prevent recurrence.

Removing carbs is tough but, I think the appropriate phrase would be, "nothing tastes as good as living feels".

Good luck with you journey, and please keep us unformed of your progress.
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Old 08-10-2013, 07:47 AM   #14
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You are an inspiration. In the face of cancer you're battening down the hatches and doing what's best for your body, despite some doctors not being on board yet. You are a pioneer. I have come to NK for a very similar reason, to everything I can to prevent recurrence.

Removing carbs is tough but, I think the appropriate phrase would be, "nothing tastes as good as living feels".

Good luck with you journey, and please keep us unformed of your progress.
What an uplifting post! And I thank you.

I saw the surgeon on Thursday and the oncologist on Friday. There is a chance that chemo won't be called for and that thrills me to no end! We won't know until after the surgery.
Getting into ketosis is quite difficult for me still probably due to a pancreas that barely works and the use of insulin to keep BG low, but not dangerously so. It's a balancing act. I'm starting the zero carbs today. Yesterday, I could tell that hubby was yearning to eat out again like we've always done, so we went to Cheddars. I ordered nothing off my diet, but the green beans and shrimp definitely had sugar in them. Beeeeg mistake. Won't do that again.

I like your phrase, there, "nothing tastes as good as living feels". May I quote you?

Jane
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Old 08-10-2013, 08:28 AM   #15
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What an uplifting post! And I thank you.

I saw the surgeon on Thursday and the oncologist on Friday. There is a chance that chemo won't be called for and that thrills me to no end! We won't know until after the surgery.
Getting into ketosis is quite difficult for me still probably due to a pancreas that barely works and the use of insulin to keep BG low, but not dangerously so. It's a balancing act. I'm starting the zero carbs today. Yesterday, I could tell that hubby was yearning to eat out again like we've always done, so we went to Cheddars. I ordered nothing off my diet, but the green beans and shrimp definitely had sugar in them. Beeeeg mistake. Won't do that again.

I like your phrase, there, "nothing tastes as good as living feels". May I quote you?

Jane
Of course you can quote, Jane!

I'm happy for your good news about, possibly not needing chemo, that would be great! I imagine having to take insulin is a real challenge to NK, my biggest advantage is preventing insulin from being released. So, you'll be challenged, but, You Can Do It!

Following through with the medical experts with your care and taking care of your self nutritionally, emotionally and spiritually, you will be doing all that you can do. Keep up the great work, Jane!
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Old 08-14-2013, 11:25 AM   #16
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It's still a pain for me to get into ketosis, but I keep on trying. Maybe I should have been a research scientist. Anyway, my Lantus has been split into two half doses in an effort to keep BG more stable. It's difficult to decide what to do as too much protein can raise BG as well as too many veggie carbs. So for now, it's back to induction where perhaps I'll lose enough weight to push BG down further, lessen injected insulin and perhaps finally see ketosis.

I'll see the plastic surgeon this Thursday and maybe have surgery date soon. It still seems that a ketogenic diet is a wise alternative or adjunct therapy for cancer.

And in April's words, "nothing tastes as good as living feels".

Jane
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Old 08-15-2013, 07:04 AM   #17
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You are so smart to go ketogenic in an effort to starve out your cancer. There is some great research that supports this. You may have already read this study but I will link it in case not...

PLOS ONE: The Ketogenic Diet and Hyperbaric Oxygen Therapy Prolong Survival in Mice with Systemic Metastatic Cancer

I am a 58 yr. old woman, 5.3.5 inches and have been eating around 50g of protein per day for over a year now. If anything, I have more muscle and strength than 4 yrs. ago when I first began Atkins. I think the formulas that calculate protein amounts are not designed to consider age, sex, health and mostly diet. Eating virtually no carbs may be the key to less protein.

Please let us know how you are doing?
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Old 08-16-2013, 09:57 PM   #18
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You are so smart to go ketogenic in an effort to starve out your cancer. There is some great research that supports this. You may have already read this study but I will link it in case not...

PLOS ONE: The Ketogenic Diet and Hyperbaric Oxygen Therapy Prolong Survival in Mice with Systemic Metastatic Cancer

I am a 58 yr. old woman, 5.3.5 inches and have been eating around 50g of protein per day for over a year now. If anything, I have more muscle and strength than 4 yrs. ago when I first began Atkins. I think the formulas that calculate protein amounts are not designed to consider age, sex, health and mostly diet. Eating virtually no carbs may be the key to less protein.

Please let us know how you are doing?
That's one article that I've not read, but I will. It just seems that no matter what I try, I can't get my blood sugar where I want it. However, I will continue to follow the ketogenic diet. It will be helpful in more than one way. It's just that with using insulin, I can't afford to become hypoglycemic, so ketosis is a lofty notion. At least, the cancer will have less sugar to eat this way.
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Old 08-17-2013, 12:16 PM   #19
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I know that having insulin dependant diabetes makes it much harder but I think it can be done. As someone else pointed out, Dr. Bernstein is the expert in that department and I would highly recommend his methods. He is a type 1 and has outlived his life expectancy by many years. He is pretty incredible.
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Old 08-21-2013, 08:52 PM   #20
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Bernstein is a hero in my opinion. I've read 2 of his books and he's the one who really got me on the path of low carb.

I am finally having some success. Blood glucose goes up with intermittent fasting for me, so that's out. And eating every 3 hours is impractical, so that is out. What has finally worked is eating 3 meals a day with no snacking. Blood glucose is staying below 100 now and required insulin dosage has decreased. Hopefully , this will be a challenge for the cancer cells.

I'll have surgery next week and then will find out if we go to chemo or radiation after that. I don't think I can get out of treatment at this point, but hopefully, there won't be enough sugar to feed another tumor that could be lurking undetected.

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Old 08-21-2013, 09:13 PM   #21
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Glad you're finding success. Good luck with the surgery and aftermath. Please keep us posted when you can.
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Old 08-22-2013, 06:53 AM   #22
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Glad you're finding success. Good luck with the surgery and aftermath. Please keep us posted when you can.
That is kind. I'll pop in as soon as I can.

I'm not losing one bit of weight right now, but do believe that my body will give up poundage soon.
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Old 08-22-2013, 06:56 AM   #23
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Wonderful progress! Good luck with your surgery and please come back here and let us know how you are doing? Sending you positive vibes for a complete recovery!
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Old 08-23-2013, 04:04 AM   #24
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That is kind. I'll pop in as soon as I can.

I'm not losing one bit of weight right now, but do believe that my body will give up poundage soon.
Losing weight, whatever. You're feeding your body the best way you know how for health and recovery. That's paramount.

Do you have a plan for Vitamin C supplementation and adequate protein after surgery?

We're pulling for you, and for good news.
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Old 08-24-2013, 05:37 PM   #25
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Losing weight, whatever. You're feeding your body the best way you know how for health and recovery. That's paramount.

Do you have a plan for Vitamin C supplementation and adequate protein after surgery?

We're pulling for you, and for good news.
HMMM, you pose a good question. I was using a vitamin C supplement, but the pre-admission nurse told me to stop all supplements until after surgery. Is extra protein required for healing? Right now I'm eating a little over 100gms daily. It's hard for me to eat less protein.
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Old 08-24-2013, 05:49 PM   #26
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Yes, I meant after surgery. Because C is water soluble, it would just be peed out if you took too much, and not helpful beforehand. I would definitely restart it as soon after surgery as you can. Protein is also crucial for healing. Though there isn't agreement on how much more is needed, there is general consensus that it is necessary. The good thing is that you already know how much your body needs, which means you're a step ahead of most Americans.

After one of my surgeries, the wound simply would not close (I was bleeding for weeks). My surgeon recommended that I add zinc sulfate to my supplements as well. I did. I didn't research it, which is totally out of character for me, but I'm sharing that recommendation with you, just as a point of information.
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Old 08-24-2013, 06:22 PM   #27
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Yes, I meant after surgery. Because C is water soluble, it would just be peed out if you took too much, and not helpful beforehand. I would definitely restart it as soon after surgery as you can. Protein is also crucial for healing. Though there isn't agreement on how much more is needed, there is general consensus that it is necessary. The good thing is that you already know how much your body needs, which means you're a step ahead of most Americans.

After one of my surgeries, the wound simply would not close (I was bleeding for weeks). My surgeon recommended that I add zinc sulfate to my supplements as well. I did. I didn't research it, which is totally out of character for me, but I'm sharing that recommendation with you, just as a point of information.
I am going to research that this very evening! I'll take all the help I can get.
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Old 08-26-2013, 07:49 PM   #28
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Maybe there will be success sometime soon. Ever seeking, ever tweaking, I ate 2 scrambled eggs with a small jalapeno for breakfast and 5 small green olives, another pepper, and 1 ounce of beef for lunch. Yikes, BG had reached 149 by that time (good old cortisol at work). But about 4:00, I checked again and BG had dived down to 92. I was elated because VLC or intermittent fasting has done nothing but raise blood glucose. What I'm hoping is that by eating this way, maybe BG will start to stay down in the mornings. Perhaps ketosis is just around the corner. Kiss that cancer good-bye!
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Old 08-29-2013, 11:19 AM   #29
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Surgery is over

It was a long day yesterday , but oh, so worth it. All went well. The surgeon told DH that he couldn't find any evidence in the lymph nodes, but of course, the pathology will have to confirm that. The plastic surgeon removed about 10 pounds from the breasts and that is such good news to me. No one argued about my ketogenic diet. Except for cancer, I'm pretty healthy Still haven't reached ketosis, but haven't given up, yet. This diet will eventually cause more weight loss. Wonderfully, it makes surgery recovery go quite well. I can now fast some without crazy BG spike, so progress is being made. Aren't we all fortunate that we have found this way of eating!?

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Old 08-29-2013, 11:25 AM   #30
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So glad the surgery went well. All our best in this acute recovery phase.
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