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Old 08-05-2013, 04:07 PM   #1
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Starting over

I had a really high stress situation at work in June, and I fell off the low-carb wagon. For the past 6 weeks I've been eating every carb in sight, and I've gained back 17 lbs. Today is Day One of my return to nutritional ketosis, and so far it's going well. I do have a couple of questions for the NK geniuses around here:

1) Does exercising reduce the amount of time it takes to get into ketosis? I went for a long bike ride this morning, and it made me wonder if my body would be using up the glycogen in my system faster. I'd love that; getting through the first three days is always the hardest for me.

2) I know on Atkins you're not allowed berries and nuts on Induction. Do any of those rules apply on NK? I made blueberry fat bombs a while back and I don't know if I should wait until after the first week to eat them.

Thanks for any feedback!
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Old 08-05-2013, 06:31 PM   #2
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Hi MerryKate,
Welcome back! I don't know the answers to your questions, but am cheering for you and hope the transition to ketosis goes smoothly.
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Old 08-06-2013, 03:35 AM   #3
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Sometimes I fall out of ketosis because of my lifestyle. And I find a bit of low intensity cardio, especially in the morning, helps raise my blood ketones. I don't use it for fat loss or to deplete my glycogen, just more so to kick start my metabolism. Depending on the intensity the biking could definitely help reduce your glycogen storage. However until you are in ketosis you might have to fight the hunger a bit, because your brain will naturally try to replenish the lost glycogen as the muscles start uptaking glucose from your blood stream.
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Old 08-06-2013, 03:36 AM   #4
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Berries and nuts contain fructose and could be a problem if you aren't in ketosis because the brain is still seeking glucose at that point. But it doesn't mean you can't eat them, it just means you might have to fight some bingeing urges.
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Old 08-06-2013, 04:28 AM   #5
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I was reading about a specific plan for getting in to ketosis that included exercise first thing in the morning (HIIT I believe). Someone on this site was using this guy's plan, but I don't remember, but I followed the name. So I would think your idea of exercise is a good one.

Nutritional Ketosis is not Atkins, though Atkins is a great way to get there. So I see no trouble eating your fat bombs with a bit of blueberries. It's probably so little anyway.
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Old 08-06-2013, 05:43 AM   #6
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Weird, in question 1 you want to know about exercise speeding up entry to ketosis.
In question 2, you ask whether you can inclde a carbier food (blueberry) at the first, while you're getting into ketosis, even though the well-respected Atkins plan doesn't include them. IMO he had a good reason for not allowing them at the first----they slow down getting adapted to the plan.

I think exercise can burn some of your glycogen, and Phinney/Volek say that more glycogen is used by carby folks than by non-carby folks. So right now while you're still carby, it might help a little. Attia says that biking is superior to high intensity workouts once we are in ketosis, but I didn't find anything in his blog about using exercise to get into ketosis. Regardless of all that, exercise, with an emphasis on endurance rather than crazy cardio, is good for other health reasons.

Regarding the blueberries, why not wait a week? If your goal is to get into ketosis fast, I would think that you could leave them out so that you could have nice servings of LC veggies. Then once you were comfortable with the food plan, after a week or two, you could judiciously include the blueberry snack to see how you do.

There's lots of variables to this. Maybe you could eat the berries with no slowdown at all. But for me, I'd try them later, because there's already tons of stuff to see how you do on---- cheese, cream, flax, etc.
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Old 08-06-2013, 10:19 AM   #7
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Welcome back MerryKate!! Sorry you had a tough stretch. It is a rare person who can begin this woe and never have a bit of back pedaling for whatever reason. In a way, it is an important learning experience.

I think you should hold off on those restricted foods in order to assure your speedy arrival back into the land of ketosis! I couldn't exercise in the initial stages so can't comment on that aspect although the hunger issue may be something to be mindful of.
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Old 08-06-2013, 11:08 PM   #8
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FWIW, I'm not trying to cheat the system...I was looking for actual information. The well-respected Atkins was not the end-all, be-all of ketogenic diets. His plan works well in induction, but follow him into the OWL phase and a person may quickly fall out of ketosis. That was my reason for asking if the other books on the subject had anything to say about the foods he forbids on induction.
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Old 08-07-2013, 03:12 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by MerryKate View Post
FWIW, I'm not trying to cheat the system...I was looking for actual information. The well-respected Atkins was not the end-all, be-all of ketogenic diets. His plan works well in induction, but follow him into the OWL phase and a person may quickly fall out of ketosis. That was my reason for asking if the other books on the subject had anything to say about the foods he forbids on induction.

I think that the new Atkins is good for some people. I cannot eat all those vegetables and lose weight. The old Atkins is better for people like me. I like LCHF best. I feel the best on this WOE. There are lots of books out there. One book that I really enjoyed was "Trick and Treat" by Barry Groves. It was easy to read and he really gave a lot of information that a regular person could understand.
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Old 08-07-2013, 03:53 AM   #10
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I fell out of ketosis trying to eat more protein. What I was doing looked a bit like the induction phase in atkins. It didn't work for me.
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Old 08-07-2013, 04:47 AM   #11
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This whole ketosis thing boggles my mind. It seems to be very elusive.

There are so many different plans as far as low-carb goes, and everyone reacts differently. Phinney/Volek say under 50g of carbs, but there's probably no one here that can eat that many. Maybe they mean large men. Plus I think many of us women know that there just isn't enough data/research on women, especially older women.

I do agree with the others that just not eating the blueberries for a week or so is probably the best idea. My take on it was that there probably were so few blueberries in the whole recipe that it didn't make much of a difference, plus the fats in the fatbomb possibly counteract the sugars,

I'd be interested in the recipe, btw.

I consider myself to be doing Atkins, and I have 3 different books. I am dropping the cream down to '72 level (4t per day) but allowing myself more veggies, and not only salad. As far as protein goes, I do tend to consume around 80g, and anywhere in the 60-100 g range and I'm cool. Carbs as low as I can (for now) with veggies as the primary source.
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Old 08-07-2013, 10:18 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MerryKate View Post
FWIW, I'm not trying to cheat the system...I was looking for actual information. The well-respected Atkins was not the end-all, be-all of ketogenic diets. His plan works well in induction, but follow him into the OWL phase and a person may quickly fall out of ketosis. That was my reason for asking if the other books on the subject had anything to say about the foods he forbids on induction.
Okay. By the book.
I looked up The Art and Science of Low Carb Living, by Phinney and Volek, who I consider to be the definitive source on the ketogenic lifestyle.

They allow berries and they include some recipes containing blueberries, while stressing that ideal carb levels are very individual and are thus difficult to pinpoint with an absolute number. So if you can make the berries fit in your carb scheme while retaining a well-crafted low carb plan, Volek and Phinney would approve.

I'm excited about a study they have going. Their blog's blurb about it says it is "A study of how carbohydrate tolerance varies among men and women with metabolic syndrome" Perhaps we'll get more info about how to tune in to our individual carb tolerances when that study is published.

As for exercise, Volek has done a lot of research.
From A&S, as one of their bullet points "Ten Clinical Pearls", we see:

7. Exercise is a wellness tool. It is not a weight loss tool. Most people feel better and function better if they get a modest amount of regular exercise. On average across the population, thin people get more exercise than heavy people. People who exercise regularly across a lifetime live longer. But the extrapolation of these observations – that if heavy people exercised a lot more they’d be thin and live longer – is not supported by science. Nonetheless, that is the message that many health care professionals and the media consistently communicate to heavy people. Here are some basic (but often ignored) facts. Fitness is primarily an inherited trait. Training can increase aerobic power at most by 10-20%, but (figuratively speaking) a different choice of parents would increase or decrease your fitness by as much as 50%[129]. It takes about 350 miles of running or 1000 miles of cycling to burn off 10 pounds of body fat (assuming that your appetite doesn’t increase or your metabolism slows down). Unfortunately, when heavy people exercise regularly, their resting metabolism slows – this is not a typo! – it SLOWS by 5 to 15% on average. Based on the results of 4 tightly controlled, inpatient human studies, instead of losing 10 pounds, the average person loses 7 pounds with this much exercise, and some people lose as little as 2 or 3[130-133]. These studies specifically demonstrated that this less-than-expected weight loss was attributable to the observed reduction in resting metabolic rate. Exercise done by heavy people causes a lot of collateral damage. Think ankles, knees, hips, and low backs. So here’s a radical idea (which of course is totally out of place in this book): let heavy people try carbohydrate restriction first, lose some weight (which most do without resorting to exercise), and then let them decide when to become more active once they are empowered, energized, and lighter of foot. Making heavy people exercise is punitive. Enabling heavy people to lose weight and then become more fit is smart.
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Old 08-07-2013, 10:36 AM   #13
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Quote:
Okay. By the book.
I looked up The Art and Science of Low Carb Living, by Phinney and Volek, who I consider to be the definitive source on the ketogenic lifestyle.

They allow berries and they include some recipes containing blueberries, while stressing that ideal carb levels are very individual and are thus difficult to pinpoint with an absolute number. So if you can make the berries fit in your carb scheme while retaining a well-crafted low carb plan, Volek and Phinney would approve.

I'm excited about a study they have going. Their blog's blurb about it says it is "A study of how carbohydrate tolerance varies among men and women with metabolic syndrome" Perhaps we'll get more info about how to tune in to our individual carb tolerances when that study is published.

As for exercise, Volek has done a lot of research.
From A&S, as one of their bullet points "Ten Clinical Pearls", we see:

7. Exercise is a wellness tool. It is not a weight loss tool. Most people feel better and function better if they get a modest amount of regular exercise. On average across the population, thin people get more exercise than heavy people. People who exercise regularly across a lifetime live longer. But the extrapolation of these observations – that if heavy people exercised a lot more they’d be thin and live longer – is not supported by science. Nonetheless, that is the message that many health care professionals and the media consistently communicate to heavy people. Here are some basic (but often ignored) facts. Fitness is primarily an inherited trait. Training can increase aerobic power at most by 10-20%, but (figuratively speaking) a different choice of parents would increase or decrease your fitness by as much as 50%[129]. It takes about 350 miles of running or 1000 miles of cycling to burn off 10 pounds of body fat (assuming that your appetite doesn’t increase or your metabolism slows down). Unfortunately, when heavy people exercise regularly, their resting metabolism slows – this is not a typo! – it SLOWS by 5 to 15% on average. Based on the results of 4 tightly controlled, inpatient human studies, instead of losing 10 pounds, the average person loses 7 pounds with this much exercise, and some people lose as little as 2 or 3[130-133]. These studies specifically demonstrated that this less-than-expected weight loss was attributable to the observed reduction in resting metabolic rate. Exercise done by heavy people causes a lot of collateral damage. Think ankles, knees, hips, and low backs. So here’s a radical idea (which of course is totally out of place in this book): let heavy people try carbohydrate restriction first, lose some weight (which most do without resorting to exercise), and then let them decide when to become more active once they are empowered, energized, and lighter of foot. Making heavy people exercise is punitive. Enabling heavy people to lose weight and then become more fit is smart.
Just lurkin' here, but wow this is some great and interesting info! Thanks for sharing!
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Old 08-07-2013, 11:58 AM   #14
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Love the information on exercising! Thank you for sharing!
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Old 08-07-2013, 04:46 PM   #15
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Making heavy people exercise is punitive. Enabling heavy people to lose weight and then become more fit is smart.
I once heard Taubes express this idea concerning children. It made a real impression on me.
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Old 08-08-2013, 12:34 AM   #16
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Emel, thanks for taking the time to check out "the book" - I need to buy a copy of that and read it cover to cover.

Quote:
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I'm excited about a study they have going. Their blog's blurb about it says it is "A study of how carbohydrate tolerance varies among men and women with metabolic syndrome" Perhaps we'll get more info about how to tune in to our individual carb tolerances when that study is published.
I would really like to see the results of that as well. Sounds very interesting. Time they took women into account in testing these theories.

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Unfortunately, when heavy people exercise regularly, their resting metabolism slows – this is not a typo! – it SLOWS by 5 to 15% on average.
Well, that explains a lot - in the past I was an obsessive exerciser. I slowly lost the ability to lose weight, despite a daily workout of 1-1/2 hours and a really restricted diet. :/ I was eventually injured and had to quit exercising, and regained quite a lot of weight. For me, low-carbing has proven to be the best solution for losing weight and keeping it off.

I now exercise just for the fun of it; studies have shown that light exercise is better than antidepressants in fighting depression. I also live in a small town, so I use a bike to get around - keeps the gas bill down.

I'm happy to report that despite a few bumps along the way, I've made it through the first three days and am showing the symptoms of ketosis, with purple ketostix to boot. I'm going to wait on testing my blood for a few more days, tho....hate to waste the strips. I did have one fat bomb on the first day, and it didn't set off any cravings, but the peanut butter yesterday did, so I'm leaving nuts off the list for a while.

Before I forget, the recipe for the blueberry fat bombs came from buttoni's blog, which is highly recommended if you haven't been there yet. They come out to 0.9 net carbs each, and they're wonderful.
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Old 08-08-2013, 03:21 AM   #17
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Weight is more about diet. I used to be an excessive exerciser as well. I am thinner now and have less trouble maintaining my weight. However, there is a place for exercise. Exercise can kick start your metabolism and encourage your body to enter into the 'fat burning" mode. And for people who struggle with being in ketosis this is helpful in the morning. 20-60 min of low intensity exercise. Even doing something active such as gardening helps. The other form of exercise is strength training or weight lifting. It helps build and retain lean muscle mass, which can be an issue on a ketogenic diet.
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Old 08-08-2013, 06:23 AM   #18
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How I think about exercise is that it is the component that will keep me moving as I age. I look at old feeble people who can barely walk, and I don't want to be like that. I go dancing (country two-step) regularly, and our favorite guy at the club had his 87th birthday yesterday. He two-steps and knows all the line dances and gets to dance with all the young cute hot chicky babes (yet he'll still dance with me )

Regular walking, dancing, biking, yoga, weights, whatever it is you enjoy doing is what will keep the body younger.

And of course it's easier to move the body if it doesn't weigh so much.
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Old 08-08-2013, 10:12 AM   #19
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I'm with you Annette - at times it's hard to get started moving, but it provides such great benefits in the long run that I do it anyway. On a gorgeous day like we're having today, it's hard to sit still! I want to do it all.
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Old 08-08-2013, 12:12 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MerryKate View Post


I'm happy to report that despite a few bumps along the way, I've made it through the first three days and am showing the symptoms of ketosis, with purple ketostix to boot. I'm going to wait on testing my blood for a few more days, tho....hate to waste the strips. I did have one fat bomb on the first day, and it didn't set off any cravings, but the peanut butter yesterday did, so I'm leaving nuts off the list for a while.
Awesome that you've identified what works and what doesn't. A lot of times we can figure out what's good for us by listening to our bodies. Good for you for jumping on that skill set.

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I'm with you Annette - at times it's hard to get started moving, but it provides such great benefits in the long run that I do it anyway. On a gorgeous day like we're having today, it's hard to sit still! I want to do it all.
Yep. I love how Phinney and Volek describe it--- Exercise is a wellness tool. It is not a weight loss tool.

They definitely advocate exercise for health. They just don't think it works for weight loss. Phinney likes long-distance biking. Volek has done a lot of studies about exercise. I intend to read them one day soon. So much to learn, so little time.....
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Old 08-19-2013, 04:32 PM   #21
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How I think about exercise is that it is the component that will keep me moving as I age. I look at old feeble people who can barely walk, and I don't want to be like that.

And of course it's easier to move the body if it doesn't weigh so much.
That is exactly how I look at it. I didn't exercise *at all* while losing my weight because I just don't find it enjoyable. I still don't *BUT* I've had to find things to do to keep me moving because it became apparently that my 84 year old mil and 76 year old mother are in better shape than I am at 57. Which means at their age, I will probably be using a walker. No no no. So I've found things I do enjoy doing.

I still hate walking but I'm getting a bit of personal satisfaction out of increasing my endurance (distance I can walk)...and I'm taking a kick boxing class (that kicks my butt) cuz it's really kind of fun...and I just told my husband he can go take country dancing lessons with me...or I'll go by myself and find another partner. He's agreed...*IF* I agree to get a mountain bike and go bike riding with him. <blech>
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