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Old 07-28-2013, 12:23 PM   #1
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Thinking about NK

I had originally bought 30 blood ketone strips for testing and had decided (I still have about 5 left) that it wasn't worth testing as my results seem all over the place.

But I decided to purchase another 60 (so 2 months worth) for the Precision Xtra meter (originally was for the Novamax) and I will try harder for my next round.

I was just rereading some of the info in the "Performance" book, and it actually motivated me to keep at it.

This past week has seen me tired of trying so hard, so I've slacked...but I haven't slacked by much. I've introduced extra artificial sweeteners for instance. I've not eaten since breakfast, just finished up a giant diet coke (not something I normally eat) and my blood sugar is 105. I think I need to do some BS testing with a diet soda. I've been busy working outside, painting my house, and my BS should be lower.

Or I'm having a delayed response to breakfast which had 10 g of carb, 6 of which were fiber.

I just hate having to be so strict, but I'd sure like to see the weight drop. I get bored of any specific diet very quickly, and variety is important to me. I can't handle more than 2-3 days of restriction at a time, because I sort of rebel at that point.

I guess I'm kind of curious where others of you are standing in the attempt towards NK. If I use urine stix, which I know are unreliable for NK, and I know I'm not dehydrated because I drink gobs of water, and they always turn pink/moderate...am I in ketosis? I feel good.

Oh well....I placed my order for 60 sticks, like I said, I will give it a good shot. Until they are here, which I know can take a few weeks (from Canadian Pharmacy) I will not stress, but work on more blood sugar testing.
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Old 07-28-2013, 01:31 PM   #2
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Well, I really have to be strict. I went to a family reunion this weekend. I ate too much protein and also added some blueberries. Well, my weight was up 2 pounds this morning. I am sure it will take a couple of days for it to be back down, but that just shows that I must be strict. I actually like to be strict. I feel so much better when I am. The blueberries tasted good, though.
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Old 07-28-2013, 02:29 PM   #3
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so many people doing NK eat a lot of coconut oil, and the results of ketone testing in this case will be a total THIER ketones and the ketones from the coconut oil, right? so it's not really a very useful thing to test if you are eating a lot of those (?) medium chain fatty acids that test as ketones.
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Old 07-28-2013, 03:11 PM   #4
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I eat what I know works for me (under 20g total carbs, ~120g protein, the rest fat), and don't worry about it. I'm in constant ketosis and I'm losing, so why get more precise?

I have tested my blood ketones in the past, and I know I'm in the zone for NK, but I don't do it often, or even much at all.
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Old 07-28-2013, 03:32 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by ravenrose View Post
so many people doing NK eat a lot of coconut oil, and the results of ketone testing in this case will be a total THIER ketones and the ketones from the coconut oil, right? so it's not really a very useful thing to test if you are eating a lot of those (?) medium chain fatty acids that test as ketones.
That's mentioned in the "Performance" book too, and they don't encourage consuming MCT oil. I tend to use CO occasionally, and I think I'll keep it that way (not even daily.) I did buy the MCT oil and it's fine, but it's kind of the same, not something I would use regularly. So I'm going to finish up the bottle I have by using it in salad dressing only, 1/2 MCT oil and 1/2 olive oil. It makes a nice dressing that way.

I want to be in ketosis by eating normal foods, that's my goal, and what I'm determining is the most right for me.
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Old 07-28-2013, 03:35 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by Ntombi View Post
I eat what I know works for me (under 20g total carbs, ~120g protein, the rest fat), and don't worry about it. I'm in constant ketosis and I'm losing, so why get more precise?

I have tested my blood ketones in the past, and I know I'm in the zone for NK, but I don't do it often, or even much at all.
That's how I "feel" I am, but sometimes when I test I am in NK and the next day I'm not. That's kind of why I'm considering being more precise. I'm also very wishy washy.

I also just now ordered the 1972 Atkins book and will give that a good read when I get it. I have 2 Atkins books, and everytime I read through one I find new gems. There's so much more in the book than the standard diet protocol. I think I will pull out the sticky notes and the highlighter this time around.
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Old 07-28-2013, 03:39 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by lovetoknit View Post
Well, I really have to be strict. I went to a family reunion this weekend. I ate too much protein and also added some blueberries. Well, my weight was up 2 pounds this morning. I am sure it will take a couple of days for it to be back down, but that just shows that I must be strict. I actually like to be strict. I feel so much better when I am. The blueberries tasted good, though.
Carolyn
This is EXACTLY where I have my issue. Eating too much protein....still numberwise has never put me over my so-called top limit. And a half cup of blueberries wouldn't put me over my carb limit (as long as I have over eaten carbs.) So why would that be enough to take one out of NK. That's the problem. Is it really a problem??????

By the way, I'm just talking outloud here and venting a few frustrations. I wish I could find some studies specifically about female, and more specifically about older menopausal women.

I am feeling good on my diet protocol, and I am losing (albeit slowly).
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Old 07-28-2013, 03:54 PM   #8
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This is EXACTLY where I have my issue. Eating too much protein....still numberwise has never put me over my so-called top limit. And a half cup of blueberries wouldn't put me over my carb limit (as long as I have over eaten carbs.) So why would that be enough to take one out of NK. That's the problem. Is it really a problem??????

By the way, I'm just talking outloud here and venting a few frustrations. I wish I could find some studies specifically about female, and more specifically about older menopausal women.

I am feeling good on my diet protocol, and I am losing (albeit slowly).
Maybe fruit does not affect you, but it does affect me. So I usually stay away from it. I do not eat many vegetables either. They both raise my blood sugar and I get hungry faster. Everyone is different, though. For me, it is not so much the total carbs, though that does matter, but how many carbs I eat in 4 hours. I try to keep it less than 5 grams of carb in 4 hours.
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Old 07-28-2013, 04:04 PM   #9
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It's not only total carbs, but type of carbs. Fructose tends to be higher glycemic, so they are absorbed more quickly by the body, which can knock you out of ketosis more often than the same amount of carbs in leafy vegetables. The same with something like the sucrose in white sugar. If you ate 20g of white sugar, it would be more detrimental to your level of ketosis than the carb equivalent in non-starchy veg.
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Old 07-28-2013, 04:58 PM   #10
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It's not only total carbs, but type of carbs. Fructose tends to be higher glycemic, so they are absorbed more quickly by the body, which can knock you out of ketosis more often than the same amount of carbs in leafy vegetables. The same with something like the sucrose in white sugar. If you ate 20g of white sugar, it would be more detrimental to your level of ketosis than the carb equivalent in non-starchy veg.
Actually I am very sensitive to fructose and eat very little fruit, occasionally some berries right now. I also found out I'm sensitive to yogurt/cottage cheese.

Ntombi, do you remember if you read somewhere that 20 g of one carb might react differently than 20 g of another?

Now, that is quite interesting. 20g non-starchy would be a fairly large quantity though, and might give the reaction Dr. Bernstein talks about (Chinese food syndrome.)
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Old 07-28-2013, 05:06 PM   #11
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I'm sorry, I can't remember, I read so much from so many different sources. But I was just using the 20g as an example, since that's the amount so many of us eat in a day.
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Old 07-28-2013, 05:09 PM   #12
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I'm sorry, I can't remember, I read so much from so many different sources. But I was just using the 20g as an example, since that's the amount so many of us eat in a day.
I know what you mean, I'm constantly reading lately about all this, and most the time the mind is spinning.

I was just reading about post-menopausal women and weight loss and ketosis and I'm like wow!

I always appreciate the help and having other people analyze my thoughts, it's so very helpful.

Actually, my musings today is making me feel more motivated again. I'm going to work on this a bit harder again. I truly love the support from everyone. I learn so much from what you all write.
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Old 07-29-2013, 08:24 AM   #13
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I was just reading about post-menopausal women and weight loss and ketosis and I'm like wow!

What were you reading? Any wow factor besides how it is harder for those of us in the statistical cohort?
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Old 07-29-2013, 11:34 AM   #14
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I know what you mean, I'm constantly reading lately about all this, and most the time the mind is spinning.

I was just reading about post-menopausal women and weight loss and ketosis and I'm like wow!

I always appreciate the help and having other people analyze my thoughts, it's so very helpful.

Actually, my musings today is making me feel more motivated again. I'm going to work on this a bit harder again. I truly love the support from everyone. I learn so much from what you all write.
Yes, what were you reading?? LOL I am not menopausal yet, but super pestered by hormones and gaining during TOM and also during ovulation time, its crazy!
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Old 07-29-2013, 12:36 PM   #15
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This is something I found interesting.
Quote:
Besides sudden surges of stress hormones, many people have raised stress hormone levels at various times of the day and night. Many people have chronic elevations of stress hormones, particularly as they get older, and particularly at night.

I wonder if this has a bit of a role to play in why it is so famously difficult for post-menopausal women to lose weight. This is a very large topic and this suggestion is not meant to over-simplify the picture, but, as a general group, post-menopausal women are famous for having poor quality sleep – and even more so if they have hot flashes or night sweats. Some women in this situation may be producing enough glucose at night to trigger enough insulin to suppress ketone production. This would not be detected by blood glucose testing if insulin function was normal.

In a reply to a comment from a reader she states, "post-menopausal women are the bane of obesity medicine offices everywhere – famous for being the group most resistant to approaches that are useful for most other people! As one myself, I have a vested interest in trying to figure out successful tactics."

Google: it's the satiety | first solve the hunger, then consider weight (lots of good stuff on this blog - a female MD with a degree in Nutrition)
So these past few days I have not been in NK (as per blood ketone sticks) but I've finally been sleeping nicely again. Lately I seem to sleep like crap, these past 3 months have been rough. But eat a bit more and sleep is good again. My FBS is noticeably up the past few mornings though.

I have always lost weight easily, seriously easily, as long as I follow a diet. It's definitely gotten more difficult, hence why after a few days of being restrictive, I say I can't do it again....take a small break, then I can do it again (LOL.)
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Old 07-29-2013, 06:59 PM   #16
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so many people doing NK eat a lot of coconut oil, and the results of ketone testing in this case will be a total THIER ketones and the ketones from the coconut oil, right? so it's not really a very useful thing to test if you are eating a lot of those (?) medium chain fatty acids that test as ketones.
It is generally considered best to test blood ketones first thing in the a.m., much like a fasting blood glucose. In this case, I don't believe that consuming mct oil (like coconut oil) from the previous day will have any bearing as it would have long since been metabolized.
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Old 07-30-2013, 08:36 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by ravenrose View Post
so many people doing NK eat a lot of coconut oil, and the results of ketone testing in this case will be a total THIER ketones and the ketones from the coconut oil, right? so it's not really a very useful thing to test if you are eating a lot of those (?) medium chain fatty acids that test as ketones.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AnnetteW View Post
That's mentioned in the "Performance" book too, and they don't encourage consuming MCT oil. I tend to use CO occasionally, and I think I'll keep it that way (not even daily.) I did buy the MCT oil and it's fine, but it's kind of the same, not something I would use regularly. So I'm going to finish up the bottle I have by using it in salad dressing only, 1/2 MCT oil and 1/2 olive oil. It makes a nice dressing that way.

I want to be in ketosis by eating normal foods, that's my goal, and what I'm determining is the most right for me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by clackley View Post
It is generally considered best to test blood ketones first thing in the a.m., much like a fasting blood glucose. In this case, I don't believe that consuming mct oil (like coconut oil) from the previous day will have any bearing as it would have long since been metabolized.
I just ordered the Performance book tonight, I didn't realize that the ketones in coconut oil get into your bloodstream directly. I eat 2 fat bombs a day at lunch time usually, which are about half butter and half coconut oil. Just got my blood ketone meter as well. It sounds like as long as I test in the mornings the readings should be pretty accurate?
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Old 07-30-2013, 08:40 PM   #18
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During my week of blood ketone testing, I sometimes ate coconut oil, and sometimes didn't. It didn't seem to have an effect on my readings.
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Old 07-30-2013, 09:07 PM   #19
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During my week of blood ketone testing, I sometimes ate coconut oil, and sometimes didn't. It didn't seem to have an effect on my readings.
Thanks, that's good to know.
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Old 08-01-2013, 07:47 AM   #20
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This is EXACTLY where I have my issue. Eating too much protein....still numberwise has never put me over my so-called top limit. And a half cup of blueberries wouldn't put me over my carb limit (as long as I have over eaten carbs.) So why would that be enough to take one out of NK. That's the problem. Is it really a problem??????

By the way, I'm just talking outloud here and venting a few frustrations. I wish I could find some studies specifically about female, and more specifically about older menopausal women.

I am feeling good on my diet protocol, and I am losing (albeit slowly).
I don't mean to be argumentative, but how did you arrive at your carb limit? If eating blueberries knocks you out of NK, maybe your carb limit number needs to be lowered.

Phinney and Volek say that carb limits vary widely from person to person.

Seems to me you might want to investigate this, especially if you notice a trend about your carbs and how they relate to your ketone readings.
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Old 08-01-2013, 11:46 AM   #21
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I don't mean to be argumentative, but how did you arrive at your carb limit? If eating blueberries knocks you out of NK, maybe your carb limit number needs to be lowered.

Phinney and Volek say that carb limits vary widely from person to person.

Seems to me you might want to investigate this, especially if you notice a trend about your carbs and how they relate to your ketone readings.
Please, argue away, because that's how I figure out what I'm doing. In fact, I wrote that incorrectly. I was meaning that "so-called" 50 gram of carbs stated in the book.

I had been going up the OWL, but hadn't been testing ketones. Plus, the loss was just slowly down naturally too. AND I WAS FRUSTRATED!!!! Let's be serious here.

I'm starting again actually, spending the next few days getting carbs out, eating as well as I feel I can, and then plan on hitting it hard come Monday.

I'm starting to believe my carb limit is quite low, but at other times it seems like it changes. I fight the system, and don't want to track. I tracked so much when I did my 60 lb loss 2 years ago, and I just can't do it again, for more than a day or so. I'm better off just saying I can't have something.

So feel free to dig deeply in something I write, but also understand some of it is written emotionally. I think we all do that. Plus, I'm still learning.
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Old 08-01-2013, 05:03 PM   #22
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I'm messing around with my carbs again. I don't tweak all the time, but I do want to push my limit from 30 to 35 total. I'm scared lol
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Old 08-01-2013, 05:33 PM   #23
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I'm not doing that until I get to goal!
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Old 08-02-2013, 02:56 PM   #24
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Quote:
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I fight the system, and don't want to track. I tracked so much when I did my 60 lb loss 2 years ago, and I just can't do it again, for more than a day or so. I'm better off just saying I can't have something.
I am trying (dreaming?) to come up with a system that will let me track a lot less or not at all once I get into maintenance. But I am not going to "listen to my body" because I know where that goes.

I'm going to do it by the (most recent Atkins) book, adding five grams of carbs back at a time, and pretty much in the order they suggest, though I struggle with that because I have things I like to cook that don't fit the program. I'm going to watch my appetite very closely and how it changes in response to the food. And weigh every day, though I'll call my 8-day average my "weight," not the most recent number on the scale. And we'll see how that works.
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Old 08-02-2013, 03:05 PM   #25
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Please, argue away, because that's how I figure out what I'm doing. In fact, I wrote that incorrectly. I was meaning that "so-called" 50 gram of carbs stated in the book.

I had been going up the OWL, but hadn't been testing ketones. Plus, the loss was just slowly down naturally too. AND I WAS FRUSTRATED!!!! Let's be serious here.

I'm starting again actually, spending the next few days getting carbs out, eating as well as I feel I can, and then plan on hitting it hard come Monday.

I'm starting to believe my carb limit is quite low, but at other times it seems like it changes. I fight the system, and don't want to track. I tracked so much when I did my 60 lb loss 2 years ago, and I just can't do it again, for more than a day or so. I'm better off just saying I can't have something.

So feel free to dig deeply in something I write, but also understand some of it is written emotionally. I think we all do that. Plus, I'm still learning.
I know that you do not want to track, but I really feel that if a person wants to lose or to maintain, they must track their food intake. It is just too easy to forget what we eat from meal to meal. We can never go back to the old way of eating or all of our work will be in vane.
Carolyn
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Old 08-03-2013, 10:52 AM   #26
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I don't track on my no-brainer days (when I eat my usual foods).

Maybe you could come up with a habitual breakfast and lunch, and then only track your varied dinners and your snacks.
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