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Old 07-25-2013, 06:35 AM   #1
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Protein, protein, protein.....

There has been a ton of discussion on the amount of protein and recently someone brought up the concept that more than 4 oz. of protein (25 to 30g) in one 4 hour period might be too much and have a gluconegenic effect. This idea got me thinking.

I have done lots of intermittent fasting and basically saved my protein allotment for one big meal over a period of about 3 to 4 hours. I am now questioning the advisability of that approach and would love to hear your thoughts.

Assuming it takes about 4 hours to digest a meal, would it make sense to assume that what ever the protein requirements are for an individual, that instead of looking at it in a 24 hour period, rather looking at it in maybe 6 hour segments?

So instead of only allowing 50g over a day, maybe 30g per meal and being sure to not consume any more protein for at least 5 or 6 hours and then being able to consume another 30g or so.

I experimented yesterday and had a burger for breakfast (along with my bpc) which translates to about 30g of protein. I wasn't hungry until about 5 oclock and didn't eat again until 6:30 and that meal was about the same grams of protein which meant about 15g more of protein than I usually shoot for.

My morning fasting ketone meter tells me I have 1.6 mml. Pretty standard # for me.
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Old 07-25-2013, 08:25 AM   #2
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Originally Posted by clackley View Post
There has been a ton of discussion on the amount of protein and recently someone brought up the concept that more than 4 oz. of protein (25 to 30g) in one 4 hour period might be too much and have a gluconegenic effect. This idea got me thinking.

I have done lots of intermittent fasting and basically saved my protein allotment for one big meal over a period of about 3 to 4 hours. I am now questioning the advisability of that approach and would love to hear your thoughts.

Assuming it takes about 4 hours to digest a meal, would it make sense to assume that what ever the protein requirements are for an individual, that instead of looking at it in a 24 hour period, rather looking at it in maybe 6 hour segments?

So instead of only allowing 50g over a day, maybe 30g per meal and being sure to not consume any more protein for at least 5 or 6 hours and then being able to consume another 30g or so.

I experimented yesterday and had a burger for breakfast (along with my bpc) which translates to about 30g of protein. I wasn't hungry until about 5 oclock and didn't eat again until 6:30 and that meal was about the same grams of protein which meant about 15g more of protein than I usually shoot for.

My morning fasting ketone meter tells me I have 1.6 mml. Pretty standard # for me.
That is a good point. Probably eating less often is a good idea.
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Old 07-25-2013, 09:33 AM   #3
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Well I seem to have issues with protein. I worked best when I was eating 60g or less a day with carbs being around 45g or less. I did eat most of my protein at dinner. Usually 100g of meat at dinner. Sometimes it did cause issues but I found this more when my Blood ketones were consistently below 0.5. Based on experimenting I have to have a high fat diet, and then the rest is protein/carbs. It doesn't seem to matter which one I eat more of but the higher protein meals don't create the immediate insulin response. However, I can experience a delayed insulin response, so whether it happens immediately or a couple hours later probably doesn't matter. Although the high protein meal might be better than a high carb meal if looking at whether or not you need the nutrients that come from protein. Carbs you don't really need. Having said that though, I have found it really difficult to limit both protein and carbs. What do you end up eating? A bowl of oil? Seriously, everything has trace protein and carbs so my meals look so far removed from the american diet. Part of the problem is that my daily intake is only around 1500cal. So it isn't bad if I am eating only two meals, but when you are eating meals and snacks it ends up being a really strange WOE. A am very confused about it myself.
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Old 07-25-2013, 09:59 AM   #4
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I think it's interesting to think about. I've said elsewhere that the 4oz per 4hr thing doesn't make sense to me for everyone, but I do wonder about eating throughout the day versus not.

I mostly eat two meals per day, and my protein range is on the higher side at ~120g/day. That means I often eat at least 50g of protein per meal.

Because I'm interested in this stuff, I randomly test my fasting and post-prandial blood glucose (I'm not diabetic), and I also did a week of experimentation where I weighed and counted every morsel I ate and tested my blood ketone levels.

Eating higher amounts of protein (though still within my range) did not seem to have an effect on my blood ketone or glucose level. I'm sure if I ate above my personal range, it would, but splitting my food into two or three meals, or even including a snack sometimes, doesn't seem to make a difference in my n=1 observations.

The only day where it may have is the first entry, when I ate significantly higher protein than normal, in two meals, but that was the day I first received my ketone strips, and I tested at 0.6 that night (I didn't include it in the log, because it was at night--evening ketones are supposedly higher, and less accurate for NK purposes, than fasting morning levels). So even with higher protein split into fewer meals, I was still within the zone.

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Originally Posted by Ntombi View Post
Okay, here's my food along with the ketone log.

Blood Ketone Log

July 2 morning -- 0.5
Previous day's food
bunless double Quarter Pounder with Cheese from McD's
Roasted chicken breast with skin 16oz
Marie's Blue Cheese Dressing 3TBS
10 oz coffee
3TBS heavy whipping cream (HWC)
Cal-1809 c-10.4 p-180 f-111

July 3 morning -- 1.3
Previous day's food
Pan seared pork chop 6oz
2TBS HWC
80/20 Ground beef patty 6.25oz (all meat is weighed after cooking)
two eggs
2TBS cheddar cheese
My tea*
Two Bunless McDoubles from McD's
Cal-1735 c-14.5 p-151 f-117

July 4 morning -- 1.2
Previous day's food
My tea + 13g coconut oil (EVCO)
Denny's burger with cheese, bacon, sauteed mushrooms, grilled onions, jalapeños (used Denny's nutrition info)
10 oz coffee
9g EVCO
40g HWC
70g Gallo hard salame
Cal - 2042 c - 16.5 p - 111 f - 169

July 5 morning -- 1.9
Previous day's food
Ribeye steak 356g
Boursin garlic and herb 30g
my tea
Cal - 1287 c - 4.7 p - 118 f - 85

July 6 morning -- 1.0
Previous day's food
10oz coffee
21g HWC
21g butter
ribeye steak 395g
20g butter
3 eggs scrambled
28g cheddar cheese
4 slices bacon
my tea
1 bunless McDouble from McD's
Cal - 1639 c - 9.3 p - 153 f - 102


July 7 morning -- 1.2
Previous day's food
lemon fat bomb
219g ribeye steak
315g ribeye steak
70g Gallo hard salame
Cal -1549 c - 2.7 p - 164 f - 93

July 8 morning -- 1.7
Previous day's food
butter 28g
HWC 23g
10oz coffee
65g ribeye steak
bunless double quarter pounder w/cheese from McD's
Cal - 996 c - 9.6 p - 62 f - 79


*I've added "my tea" to my app, and it just means 11oz of black tea and about two teaspoons of HWC

I didn't log my drinks unless they had carbs, but each time I went to McDonald's, I had a large Diet Coke, and I went to the movies on the 7th, and had one there too. Other than that, it was water.

Yesterday, the experiment was over, so I didn't weigh my food, but I know I ate about 180g of protein, and just under 20g of carbs, because I had a serving and a half of greens. This morning, my ketone level was 0.5.

It just so happened that the experiment week was between the times I was eating veggies. I had just finished a big pot of veggies, and didn't make one again until Sunday night. I think I'm going to order another ten pack, so I can test when I'm eating my normal amount of veggies. Even though I stick to very low carb veggies, I have a feeling I'll have less leeway with my protein when I'm eating them.

If I'm not careful, I'm going to keep testing!
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Old 07-25-2013, 11:31 AM   #5
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Thanks Ntombi for sharing that. Its funny because that menu, even though high in fat, would be too high in protein for me and I wouldn't be able to stay in ketosis. My diet looks more like a fat fast, with a lot more calories. It is interesting how different the diets have to be.
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Old 07-25-2013, 11:53 AM   #6
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Yes, I probably should have mentioned that I have 154 lbs of LBM, so my goal is always to feed and maintain that, while ridding myself of the excess fat.

I haven't been out of ketosis since early January.
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Old 07-25-2013, 12:02 PM   #7
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Thanks Ntombi for sharing that. Its funny because that menu, even though high in fat, would be too high in protein for me and I wouldn't be able to stay in ketosis. My diet looks more like a fat fast, with a lot more calories. It is interesting how different the diets have to be.
I eat protein at breakfast and lunch with extra fat at each meal. If I eat vegetables, I eat them at lunch. Never in the evening. I have have quite a bit of fat at night. I usually eat 1 cup of whipped cream (made with 1/2 cup heavy cream) with cocoa powder and 1 drop of sweetener in it. It satisfies me all evening.
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Old 07-26-2013, 06:00 AM   #8
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It is hard to tease out what is actually happening without testing constantly and even then, it can be misinterpreted.

I have decided to try the additional protein but spaced out by 5+ hours and judge my success by how I feel and the scale. I'll give it 6 wks. with a weekly fasting a.m. blood ketone test. After day 1, my reading was 1.6 which is pretty average for me. Scale remains 'rock steady'... story of my life!
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Old 07-26-2013, 08:59 AM   #9
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Bernstein says in his book, Diabetes Solution, that excess protein has a glucogenic effect...and he usually backs up what he says with the science. Not only does he say 1-1.5gm per kilo of ideal body weight but also not more than 4-5 oz at one meal. This may only be an issue with hypo/hyperglycemics.

I read an article about 3 days ago...very technical...about what happens to excess protein in the human body and it basically said that if the body is working properly (and it's not if you are hypo/hyperglycemic), the body will either use the protein if it is needed...or store it as fat if it is excess, but it won't have a glucogenic effect.

I used to wake up in the morning and have a protein drink (3 carbs) at 7 a.m. and my usual eggs at 10 a.m. In the last few weeks I've been paying closer attention to my BG so, in addition to my fasting at 7 a.m., and then checked my blood sugar every 30 minutes up to the 2 hr PP after drinking my protein drink that had 3 carbs and 17gm of protein. My blood sugar did the same thing it does after a meal. It went up and then by 2hr PP, it was back to my pre-meal number. Goodbye protein drink.
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Old 07-26-2013, 10:10 AM   #10
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Melody

Explain about the protein shake a little more... you said your BG went up the same as a meal ??? If it "always" goes up with a meal, what's the difference with the shake and a meal? I'm interested because I drink a shake for breakfast - I'm not diabetic, don't check my BG
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Old 07-26-2013, 11:12 AM   #11
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Everyone agrees that excess protein turns to glucose in the body. It's called gluconeogenesis. The question is how much is "too much," that's what we're all grappling with.

Like I said upthread, I've taken my blood glucose at set times directly before, and at half hour intervals after a meal, purely out of curiosity, and meals that contain only protein and fat don't raise my BG by more than a few points, so I haven't found my body's threshold of "too much."

I've done the same with caffeinated diet soda, with similar results, BTW.
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Old 07-26-2013, 11:37 AM   #12
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Melody

Explain about the protein shake a little more... you said your BG went up the same as a meal ??? If it "always" goes up with a meal, what's the difference with the shake and a meal? I'm interested because I drink a shake for breakfast - I'm not diabetic, don't check my BG
As far as I can tell, no difference. There are 17gm of protein in that shake and one of my meals would have maybe 20-25gm. Apparently my body doesn't care that the protein came in a liquid drink.

I'm only concerned because I used to be insulin resistant and one of the ways we become insulin resistant is with a constant up and down swing. So, for a type 2, 3 meals a day are better than 6 meals.
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Old 07-26-2013, 11:40 AM   #13
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Everyone agrees that excess protein turns to glucose in the body. It's called gluconeogenesis. The question is how much is "too much," that's what we're all grappling with.
I'll see if I can find the article because if I understood it correctly, in a normal body the liver (?) will not change the excess protein into glucose if there is already enough glucose in the blood. It is self-monitoring. It is only when the system is broken (diabetics) that it continues to change it to glucose even though there is already enough there (thus the high blood sugars).

I'm going out of town for the weekend, but will try to see if I can find it before I go.
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Old 07-26-2013, 11:42 AM   #14
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Interesting. I have never heard that theory before.
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Old 07-27-2013, 04:31 AM   #15
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Amoiel. Thankyou very much for your posts because I know something definitely happens with me when I eat a high protein, high fat meal. I tried a can of tuna with a ton of oil fat, for lunch and all it does is delay the insulin response. Now I am not doing BG testing, but what happens with me is that I get "no reaction" to the meal after I eat it, but an hour to 2 hours later, I get a reaction. And it is the same reaction I get when I used to eat high carb meals right after eating.

I also switched to a high protein, high fat diet under the recommendation of my PT, but I couldn't handle the diet. My meals looked like the typical LC way of eating. Ie. protein and fat. But apparently that is too much protein for me. Having said that though, I am susceptible to hypoglycemia and type 2 diabetes runs in my family. I usually deal with the insulin response at dinner because that is when I get most of my nutrients, and then I just keep the rest of my meals small to avoid the insulin swings. Keeping my carbs under 50g works but it seems to also have to be Low protein with me. I think right now 80 - 90% of my calories are fat. I wish I could tolerate more protein but I don't seem to be storing excess as fat, more like converting it to glucose, if that article is correct.

I am going to try BG testing to see what happens when I eat a high protein, high fat meal.
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Old 07-27-2013, 06:14 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Punkin View Post
I am going to try BG testing to see what happens when I eat a high protein, high fat meal.
I find that BG testing has been so informative for me. Things I wouldn't think I would react to, or quantities, totally amaze me.

I definitely recommend testing, but also realize that the meters have error in them. I currently use the Relion Micro (from Walmart) and it seems quite consistent. I had used the Relion Ultima and it gave me big swings. The new inexpensive one from Walmart is called the Prime, but I haven't tried it. Those strips add up.

I regularly test my fasting blood glucose as I pretty well know my reaction to certain foods. My fasting is more a reaction to the previous day. For instance I increased my carbs yesterday, not tremendously and my numbers went up. I can't really complain as long as I'm under 100, but it's sure nice when I see consistent readings in the 80's.

I too notice a strong delayed reading. I will often notice the 3-4 hour spike.

Personally I do like to snack occasionally, but snacking does encourage the blood sugar to be raised all the time. I do find that the 3 low carb meals spread far enough apart are best at keeping my blood sugar down. It takes time to allow your body to get the blood sugar down (if that makes sense.) If you first start testing, for instance, and find your Fasting is 110 in the AM, and then in the afternoon you get a fasting of 100.....after a month of low carbing and really working on those numbers, they might drop to 95 and 85. Then you start to see the occasionally 79 and you're like WOW! Since it took time to get to that lower number, your body feels fine at 79, where before you would have been feeling hypo.

Hope that makes sense. My numbers drop real well the more controlled I am with my food. My fasting numbers when I first started were in the 130's now they are anywhere under 100. And I don't see spikes, my blood sugar just rises 10 or so. Maybe I'll try tracking a few after meals a bit more closely.
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Old 07-27-2013, 08:23 AM   #17
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How far apart do you find your meals should be to allow your BG to go back down? I am wondering if maybe my meals might be too close together.
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