Low Carb Friends  
Netrition.com - Tools - Reviews - Faces - Recipes - Home


Go Back   Low Carb Friends > Eating and Exercise Plans > Weight Loss Plans > Nutritional Ketosis / High Fat, Low Carb
Register FAQ Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 07-24-2013, 04:47 AM   #1
Junior LCF Member
 
Baconista's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 11
Gallery: Baconista
Stats: 425/397/299 for now....
WOE: Nutritional ketosis
Start Date: Many times... This time 6/30/13
Did I eat that fat?!

Just a quick question....when I'm in NK as I am now, how do I know the fat I'm burning is body fat and not the cheeseburger I just ate? Are we burning body fat or dietary fat?


Thank you so much...loving this group!
Baconista is offline   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old 07-24-2013, 05:24 AM   #2
Way too much time on my hands!
 
emel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: VA
Posts: 17,634
Gallery: emel
Stats: 179.4/158.8/130ish
WOE: Atkins OWL/NK hybrid
Well, that's the trick--- balancing foods plus the burning of stored body fat for fuel.

I do well with appetite suppression when I stay on the foods that are good for me.
4-5 oz well-marbled protein, a salad or veg, and some added fats is good for lunch and dinner. I eat a light protein-rich breakfast. Those calories add up to less than what I need for daily fuel, so the deficit is made up by body fat burning.

As for whether you're burning the cheeseburger or the body fat at any given moment, I have no idea. But averaging it out through a day or a week or a month, if your calories are lower than your needs, the body fat is going to be burned.
__________________
Keep calm and carry on.
emel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-24-2013, 10:38 AM   #3
Junior LCF Member
 
Baconista's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 11
Gallery: Baconista
Stats: 425/397/299 for now....
WOE: Nutritional ketosis
Start Date: Many times... This time 6/30/13
I seem to be averaging 1300-1500 cals a day and can usually hit close to the 80/15/5 mark. If I go over on anything it's always the protein, resulting in less fat percentage. I'm in ketosis so sure I'm burning something. How does one figure out how many fat grams we burn a day? Is there a way?
Baconista is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-24-2013, 11:28 AM   #4
Way too much time on my hands!
 
emel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: VA
Posts: 17,634
Gallery: emel
Stats: 179.4/158.8/130ish
WOE: Atkins OWL/NK hybrid
You can estimate it with a BMI calculator with a multiplier for activity level -- you know, the ones that say you should eat 1800 cal to maintain your weight. Then subtract your food calories from your supposed calorie level. But I don't think they're all that accurate.

If you get a body fat analysis done, you can figure out your caloric needs pretty accurately as long as you report your exercise/activity level correctly.
emel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-24-2013, 08:49 PM   #5
Major LCF Poster!
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,625
Gallery: Mistizoom
Stats: 300/200/190 initial goal
WOE: low carb
Start Date: November 2012
Percentages are really irrelevant, especialy during weight loss in NK. The total grams of carbs and proteins are more important. So eat few enough carbs to be in ketosis and control cravings (for most people this is under 50 g total carbs/day, but it could be fewer - that's why Atkins induction starts with 20 g carbs/day). Then eat enough protein to support your lean body mass. If you google "keto calculator" the first hit is the one I've used to calcuate this info. For me, I stick with 75-100 g protein a day. Then eat the rest of your calories from fat. How many calories depends on your current weight and total daily energy expenditure (basal metabolism plus exercise, essentially). For someone at your weight I would guess you wouldn't want to go much below 2000 calories a day to start. Your body will burn the fat from your diet but (eventually, once you become fat-adapted) will become efficient at burning body fat as well. So the fat your body consumes will be from both diet and your body's fat stores.
Mistizoom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-25-2013, 01:23 AM   #6
Very Gabby LCF Member!!!
 
SlowSure's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: London/Herts UK
Posts: 3,648
Gallery: SlowSure
Stats: 157/106/105-110 HW 168
WOE: JUDDD Maintenance. Ketogenic PHD.
Start Date: 11 Dec. 2011 Restart 1 Jan 2013
Dr Peter Attia has a good overview of the distinction and mechanisms of dietary fat and body fat in his most recent post at Eating Academy:
How to make a fat cell less not thin: the lessons of fat flux

It's a very technical discussion but it is very useful.
Quote:
There seems to be great confusion around ‘nutritional’ ketosis (a term we use to distinguish ‘dietary-induced’ ketosis from the other 2 forms of ketosis: starvation ketosis and ketoacidosis, the latter a serious complication of type I diabetes). But, before I try to dispel any of the confusion, we need to go through a little primer on what I like to call “fat flux.”...

...the idea of fat flux is pretty straight forward. If more fat enters a fat cell (called an adipocyte) than leaves it, the fat cell is experiencing a net influx – i.e., positive fat flux. And, if more fat leaves a fat cell than enters, the reverse is true: it is experiencing a net efflux, or negative fat flux....

Many people who enter nutritional ketosis do so, I worry, because they believe it “guarantees” fat loss. I hope I have convinced you that this is not true. Nutritional ketosis is one eating strategy to facilitate negative fat flux, and it works very well if done correctly. It comes with some advantages and some disadvantages, just like other eating strategies.
SlowSure is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-25-2013, 08:07 AM   #7
Senior LCF Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 468
Gallery: lovetoknit
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mistizoom View Post
Percentages are really irrelevant, especialy during weight loss in NK. The total grams of carbs and proteins are more important. So eat few enough carbs to be in ketosis and control cravings (for most people this is under 50 g total carbs/day, but it could be fewer - that's why Atkins induction starts with 20 g carbs/day). Then eat enough protein to support your lean body mass. If you google "keto calculator" the first hit is the one I've used to calcuate this info. For me, I stick with 75-100 g protein a day. Then eat the rest of your calories from fat. How many calories depends on your current weight and total daily energy expenditure (basal metabolism plus exercise, essentially). For someone at your weight I would guess you wouldn't want to go much below 2000 calories a day to start. Your body will burn the fat from your diet but (eventually, once you become fat-adapted) will become efficient at burning body fat as well. So the fat your body consumes will be from both diet and your body's fat stores.

I agree with this. Very good points.
Carolyn
lovetoknit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-25-2013, 08:07 AM   #8
Senior LCF Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 468
Gallery: lovetoknit
Quote:
Originally Posted by SlowSure View Post
Dr Peter Attia has a good overview of the distinction and mechanisms of dietary fat and body fat in his most recent post at Eating Academy:
How to make a fat cell less not thin: the lessons of fat flux

It's a very technical discussion but it is very useful.
Those are very good points.
Carolyn
lovetoknit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-25-2013, 10:30 AM   #9
Major LCF Poster!
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,625
Gallery: Mistizoom
Stats: 300/200/190 initial goal
WOE: low carb
Start Date: November 2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by SlowSure View Post
Dr Peter Attia has a good overview of the distinction and mechanisms of dietary fat and body fat in his most recent post at Eating Academy:
How to make a fat cell less not thin: the lessons of fat flux

It's a very technical discussion but it is very useful.
Quote:
There seems to be great confusion around ‘nutritional’ ketosis (a term we use to distinguish ‘dietary-induced’ ketosis from the other 2 forms of ketosis: starvation ketosis and ketoacidosis, the latter a serious complication of type I diabetes). But, before I try to dispel any of the confusion, we need to go through a little primer on what I like to call “fat flux.”...

...the idea of fat flux is pretty straight forward. If more fat enters a fat cell (called an adipocyte) than leaves it, the fat cell is experiencing a net influx – i.e., positive fat flux. And, if more fat leaves a fat cell than enters, the reverse is true: it is experiencing a net efflux, or negative fat flux....

Many people who enter nutritional ketosis do so, I worry, because they believe it “guarantees” fat loss. I hope I have convinced you that this is not true. Nutritional ketosis is one eating strategy to facilitate negative fat flux, and it works very well if done correctly. It comes with some advantages and some disadvantages, just like other eating strategies.
Right, nutritional ketosis alone does not guarantee fat loss, you still need a calorie deficit. However, research has shown that because it does facilitate fat burning, it has a lean-body mass sparing effect not seen in high carb/low fat weight loss diets. Essentially people who lose weight on NK or low carb diets in general (as long as they eat sufficient protein) tend to maintain lean body mass much better than people on high carb/low fat weight-loss diets. But you can lose weight on either.

Last edited by Mistizoom; 07-25-2013 at 10:34 AM..
Mistizoom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-25-2013, 03:23 PM   #10
Major LCF Poster!
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 2,450
Gallery: Patience
So what are the disadvantages?
Possible weight gain?
Loss of lean body mass?

Advantages?
Possible weight loss?
Better health?

I am not sure what he is getting at.
Patience is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-25-2013, 05:25 PM   #11
Major LCF Poster!
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,625
Gallery: Mistizoom
Stats: 300/200/190 initial goal
WOE: low carb
Start Date: November 2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bella View Post
So what are the disadvantages?
Possible weight gain?
Loss of lean body mass?

Advantages?
Possible weight loss?
Better health?

I am not sure what he is getting at.
I agree, I looked at the entire blog post and I didn't really understand what he is getting at, and I have a PhD in physiology. I feel like the was making stuff up ("fat flux") just to sound impressive.
Mistizoom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-26-2013, 05:10 AM   #12
Senior LCF Member
 
AnnetteW's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Kansas
Posts: 636
Gallery: AnnetteW
Stats: 182/144/135 (5'5", 50 yrs)
WOE: Atkins/NK
Start Date: Restart: May 6, 2013 @ 165lbs
I attempted to read the article and it was way above my head.

What I got out of it is that NK isn't necessarily the perfect diet plan either. At least it's not the magic pill we'd all like to find.

Which for me is a good thing to accept, because I know myself and I get very fixated (for a short period of time) on this, then on that. Drives my husband crazy. I'm beginning to think NK isn't necessarily a goal for me to strive for and instead just stick to whatever basic low carb is...which I've also determined is what's considered NK by what I've read (numberwise at least.)

Our cells are taking fat in (or whatever the process is) and releasing all the time. At night when we are sleeping, we're burning what's there. When we eat food, it fills up again. I see that as the flux. Whether or not I'm right, doesn't matter, it's my interpretation. We just want it to skew to the use side more than the store side. We still have to take in less fuel than we burn in a day, though that doesn't appear to be exactly related to calorie counting either. Calories are always just an estimation, of what we burn or ingest, and maybe for a certain percentage of the population calorie counting/restriction works, because their bodies just line up with those numbers, but there are others where it doesn't work. There are some people who go low carb and the weight just falls off of them, and then others where the loss is just a trickle.
__________________
My Skinny Jeans (NK Journal)
AnnetteW is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-26-2013, 06:45 AM   #13
Major LCF Poster!
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 2,450
Gallery: Patience
I am basically just trying to come up with a narrative that works for me.
I think NK makes some sense, but I am still very new in the game. I have the low carbs down pat and am taking more care monitoring protein. I haven't quite figured the total calorie and fat thing. I am not yet tracking calories, but have a good idea about fat. I am losing very slowly but as long as I am losing I probably won't worry too much about the calories. August wil be a stressful month, so I am just going to focus on staying on plan and I can tweak in September to see if I can get the scale moving a bit more.
Patience is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-26-2013, 08:36 AM   #14
Chatty Cathy
 
clackley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Ontario
Posts: 16,865
Gallery: clackley
Stats: 228.5/168/125
WOE: N.K.=vlc/hf/moderate protein & organic/pastured
Start Date: Restart Oct 18 2009
I have a different take on n.k. as a weight loss tool and it mostly comes from the writings of Dr. Lutz (Life Without Bread). Some comes from just reading and trying to understand what is known and what is not known.

My take is that calories are pretty much irrelevant and what does count are the grams of macros. Add to this, the state of an individual's metabolic state (i.e. how deranged it is) and then enough time on a properly formulated woe.

So if someone states that they must count calories and stay below 1000 per day, that tells me that they must limit some of their macros in order to achieve this and then the question is, what macros are they limiting and what effect does that have on the metabolism. As we all know it is really about getting the body to resond appropriately with hormones.
__________________
Cathy
Original start - Feb. 2000 180/125

"The energy content of food (calories) matters, but it is less important than the metabolic effect of food on our body." Dr. P. Attia

"dumping carbohydrates on your broken metabolism is tantamount to doing jumping jacks on two broken legs" -The Spark of Reason

“Eat animals. Mostly fat. Enjoy!
clackley is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2013, 12:47 PM   #15
Senior LCF Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 468
Gallery: lovetoknit
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bella View Post
I am basically just trying to come up with a narrative that works for me.
I think NK makes some sense, but I am still very new in the game. I have the low carbs down pat and am taking more care monitoring protein. I haven't quite figured the total calorie and fat thing. I am not yet tracking calories, but have a good idea about fat. I am losing very slowly but as long as I am losing I probably won't worry too much about the calories. August wil be a stressful month, so I am just going to focus on staying on plan and I can tweak in September to see if I can get the scale moving a bit more.
I think that losing slowly is really a good thing. I lose at about a pound a week, and I am happy with that, but any loss is a good thing. Plus we are not gaining.
Carolyn
lovetoknit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2013, 12:56 PM   #16
Senior LCF Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 468
Gallery: lovetoknit
Quote:
Originally Posted by AnnetteW View Post
I attempted to read the article and it was way above my head.

What I got out of it is that NK isn't necessarily the perfect diet plan either. At least it's not the magic pill we'd all like to find.

Which for me is a good thing to accept, because I know myself and I get very fixated (for a short period of time) on this, then on that. Drives my husband crazy. I'm beginning to think NK isn't necessarily a goal for me to strive for and instead just stick to whatever basic low carb is...which I've also determined is what's considered NK by what I've read (numberwise at least.)

Our cells are taking fat in (or whatever the process is) and releasing all the time. At night when we are sleeping, we're burning what's there. When we eat food, it fills up again. I see that as the flux. Whether or not I'm right, doesn't matter, it's my interpretation. We just want it to skew to the use side more than the store side. We still have to take in less fuel than we burn in a day, though that doesn't appear to be exactly related to calorie counting either. Calories are always just an estimation, of what we burn or ingest, and maybe for a certain percentage of the population calorie counting/restriction works, because their bodies just line up with those numbers, but there are others where it doesn't work. There are some people who go low carb and the weight just falls off of them, and then others where the loss is just a trickle.

Also, the way calories are measured is an inaccurate method, because our bodies do not work like a machine. That is why we must tweak our plan to what works for us. We are all different. Also, it only takes about 20 extra calories a day to gain 10 to 15 pounds a year. Nobody can be that accurate in calorie counting. Also, some very low calorie foods make me gain weight. That just shows that it is the type of food we eat that counts and not the calories in the food. With NK I just use satisfaction to be my guide. I also eat a variety of foods to get the nutrition that I need. I cannot use satisfaction as my guide with a higher carb diet or even a higher protein diet. I am hungry all of the time when I eat that way and I will eat too much.
Carolyn
lovetoknit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2013, 01:26 PM   #17
Blabbermouth!!!
 
Ntombi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Boston, then OH, then NYC, now SoCal. Whew!
Posts: 38,380
Gallery: Ntombi
Stats: Restart: 360/284.4/190
WOE: Atkins for weight loss, NK for maintenance.
Start Date: Restarted: 1-3-13 Original: 8-23-02
Quote:
Originally Posted by lovetoknit View Post
I think that losing slowly is really a good thing. I lose at about a pound a week, and I am happy with that, but any loss is a good thing. Plus we are not gaining.
Carolyn
Agreed. I understand that there is a rate of loss above which one isn't losing fat, but muscle. I don't know if that rate is constant for everyone, but the number I always hear is about 1.5-2 lbs per week. Anything faster than that means the person is also losing muscle, which isn't good for a variety of reasons.

Since my goal is always to lose excess fat and keep all of my muscle mass, this is interesting to me. But here's another thing: though I am averaging just over 1.6 lbs per week, I lose scale weight in a sporadic way, meaning I may stay the same for a couple of weeks and then lose a pound a day for several days in a row. Or bounce around the same weight for a month or three, and then lose several pounds over the course of a couple of weeks. Because I lose inches during those bouncy bouncy times, I assume I'm losing fat throughout, but water is retained in my fat cells for a while. But it still means that my rate is all over the place, though my average is in line with what the "experts" recommend.

I also have my body fat percentage analyzed hydrostatically a few times per year, to keep an eye on my LBM, making sure I'm retaining as much of it as I possibly can. So far, I've lost almost entirely fat and only half a pound of muscle. That means that my assumption of fat loss and water retention has some credence.

All that is to say that, while I only count carbs, I have a loose protein goal of ~120g/day, and I don't count calories at all. Some days I eat more fat, some days less, so my percentages are quite fluid. But as long as I keep my carbs and proteins in check and don't under or overeat too often, the fat comes off in the long run.
__________________
<-- Buddy
Ntombi: 5'6˝" 40 years old
Started Atkins 8-23-02 325+
bought scale 9-7-02: 318/259.6/180?

Diagnosed with Multiple Sclerosis (and other conditions) Summer 2005 after years of misdiagnoses--> food plan went out the window!
Restarted--again--January 3, 2013.
Ntombi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2013, 09:54 PM   #18
Junior LCF Member
 
Baconista's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 11
Gallery: Baconista
Stats: 425/397/299 for now....
WOE: Nutritional ketosis
Start Date: Many times... This time 6/30/13
You bring up a great point Ntombi, and thats what I dont understand... if we are supposedly losing inches, how is the scale not moving????
Baconista is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2013, 10:43 PM   #19
Blabbermouth!!!
 
Ntombi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Boston, then OH, then NYC, now SoCal. Whew!
Posts: 38,380
Gallery: Ntombi
Stats: Restart: 360/284.4/190
WOE: Atkins for weight loss, NK for maintenance.
Start Date: Restarted: 1-3-13 Original: 8-23-02
Because fat takes up more space than water. As our fat cells are depleted, they are filled with water (smaller volume per weight) for a while, as the body figures out if its a temporary thing. Once it's clear that it's not a short term loss, the cells release the water. That happens over and over again.

Remember, we've evolved to gain weight more easily, and to hold onto fat (and the space for fat) more easily, to keep us alive during famine and lean hunting. Lean times were more prevalent than over abundance until very recently. The cells holding the space for fat is a good thing if you just couldn't down a bison that week and food was running low.

Last edited by Ntombi; 07-28-2013 at 10:44 PM..
Ntombi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-29-2013, 06:56 AM   #20
Major LCF Poster!
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 2,450
Gallery: Patience
Thanks for that reminder, Ntombe.
We were discussing "fat flux" on another thread, so it sounds like it is not such a flakey theory after all!

My pattern is alternating between inches and pounds. I don't measure with tape measure, but no doubt that clothes are becoming looser. Pounds seem to drop slowly for me, but the trend is clearly down. When I seem stuck on the scale, it's good to know that my fat cells are changing composition. Even though I can't see them, I can feel the effect. I am going to start visualizing!!
Patience is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 05:32 PM.


Copyright ©1999-2014 Friends Forums LLC. All rights reserved. - Terms of Service | Privacy Policy
LowCarbFriends® is a registered mark of Friends Forums, LLC.