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Old 07-23-2013, 12:08 AM   #1
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Just a couple of questions reg low carb

Hello fellow low carbers, i have a few things i would like to ask some experienced and knowledgeable dieters out there ...

Iv been seeing the "fat fast" in the forums often, and i have tried googling it to get some more information on it, but there doesnt seam to be much showing up, except very basic details - I love fats, such as creams, pork rinds, chicken skin, butter etc so im curious to know

-is the fat fast restricted to only those who cannot lose weight doing low carb only?

-is the fat fast only for losing weight rapidly, or can it be used as a method to put the body into ketosis, similar to the atkins induction phase?

-the fat fast requires 1000 calories per day, but due to my tiny height and structure, 1000 - 1050 is my normal daily intake anyway, so is there a body weight to calories ratio in which the calorie intake for the fat fast is calculated?

Regarding Low carb dieting
- does to much protein turn to carbs/glucose in the body if consumed in excess amounts?

i eat roughly 270g of protein per day, as i usually make everything using whey protein isolate, pea protein isolate, egg whites, miracle noodles, konjac flour etc so my diet is 85%protein 10%fat, 5%carbs - would this amount of protein just be turning into glucose within my body?

It gets so confusing, one decade were told egg yolks are bad and fat is bad, then were told simple carbs are bad for us, then suddenly were told excess protein is bad for us... and i understand its all in moderation, but i enjoy foods high in protein, as fats contain more calories, and being so restricted in my calorie allowance due to my petite frame, id rather eat more protein foods, than having to eat less high fat foods lol... i love my food!! But i wouldn't mind trying the fat fast... just to see what it does...or is this a last option method and not recommended for people on maintenance phase?

but im wanting to know if its dangerous, and how? and if the human body can go into ketosis while consuming loads of protein?


TIA
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Old 07-23-2013, 07:00 AM   #2
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I can't answer your questions regarding the fat fast as I've never done it, but on various places on the 'net it said that expected weight loss for 5 day fat fast is 4-8 lb and most regain back half of that when they go off. Perhaps others here have a different experience.

does to much protein turn to carbs/glucose in the body if consumed in excess amounts?

Yes, but the question is...what is excess? Dr. Bernstein and a few others suggests daily protein be between 1-1.5gm per kilo of *ideal* weight measured in kilos. Using 140 lb as my ideal weight (63kg), my daily protein requirements are around 63gm.

85%protein 10%fat, 5%carbs - would this amount of protein just be turning into glucose within my body?

That is a lot of protein...and really low fat. Why not decrease the protein and up the fat?

But i wouldn't mind trying the fat fast... just to see what it does...or is this a last option method and not recommended for people on maintenance phase?

Why would you want to do a fat fast if you're in maintenance?


and if the human body can go into ketosis while consuming loads of protein?


If I eat too much protein, I drop out of ketosis.
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Old 07-23-2013, 10:45 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by bl0nd3y View Post
Hello fellow low carbers, i have a few things i would like to ask some experienced and knowledgeable dieters out there ...

Iv been seeing the "fat fast" in the forums often, and i have tried googling it to get some more information on it, but there doesnt seam to be much showing up, except very basic details - I love fats, such as creams, pork rinds, chicken skin, butter etc so im curious to know

-is the fat fast restricted to only those who cannot lose weight doing low carb only?

-is the fat fast only for losing weight rapidly, or can it be used as a method to put the body into ketosis, similar to the atkins induction phase?

-the fat fast requires 1000 calories per day, but due to my tiny height and structure, 1000 - 1050 is my normal daily intake anyway, so is there a body weight to calories ratio in which the calorie intake for the fat fast is calculated?

Regarding Low carb dieting
- does to much protein turn to carbs/glucose in the body if consumed in excess amounts?

i eat roughly 270g of protein per day, as i usually make everything using whey protein isolate, pea protein isolate, egg whites, miracle noodles, konjac flour etc so my diet is 85%protein 10%fat, 5%carbs - would this amount of protein just be turning into glucose within my body?

It gets so confusing, one decade were told egg yolks are bad and fat is bad, then were told simple carbs are bad for us, then suddenly were told excess protein is bad for us... and i understand its all in moderation, but i enjoy foods high in protein, as fats contain more calories, and being so restricted in my calorie allowance due to my petite frame, id rather eat more protein foods, than having to eat less high fat foods lol... i love my food!! But i wouldn't mind trying the fat fast... just to see what it does...or is this a last option method and not recommended for people on maintenance phase?

but im wanting to know if its dangerous, and how? and if the human body can go into ketosis while consuming loads of protein?


TIA
I think you are eating too much protein. To do NK, you eat not more than about 25 percent of your calories in protein, usually less than 20 percent of your calories from carbs, and the rest in fat. Fat fasts are there to get you into ketosis quickly and to help you start losing. Usually people use them when they are stalling on their weight loss. I don't believe it is healthy to do it too long. You do need some protein every day, because your body does not store it. If we eat too much protein, the body will convert it to glucose and store it as fat, but it will not store protein directly. Many people such as myself cannot lose weight when eating too much protein. Also too much can be hard on the kidneys. Also some people cannot get into ketosis when consuming too much protein and carbs. A ketogenic diet is very low carb, medium protein, and high fat.
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Old 07-23-2013, 11:32 AM   #4
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Wow, I would say you are eating way too much protein, 270 g and you weigh 87 pounds? I would almost venture to say it is an unhealthy level of protein. You should probably cut your protein way down, maybe 100 g a day or less, and greatly increase your fat. And yes, excess protein can be turned into glucose by your body.
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Old 07-23-2013, 10:55 PM   #5
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Thank-you to all of you for your answers. i made an error in my post my actual protein intake is roughly 199g which is still way more than i should consume, So i guess the way i have been going about dieting may be a little harmful. Its just a bit scary when you have always tried to limit fat intake, to purposely eat fat but i guess its time i take the plunge... im kind of stuck between two eating styles, going low carb, but not committing to full fat LOL...

I guess i try to limit my fat intake aswell as i LOVE food, and as fat has more calories to burn than protein or carbs, i figure if i chose to lower fat calories it would allow room for some more calories to be consumed, so i can feel satisfied after eating. where as if i ate foods high in fat, i would have to half the servings i have, which is pretty small already, as i believe all-up calories count, fuel goes in, fuel gets used, excess fuel remains.

when one decides to up their fat intake, what foods should i start to limit myself on?
I know the baking mixes, bread mixes etc that i purchase are made of whey protein isolates, so all baked goods are out, unless theirs a flour alternative?

then theirs eggs = more protein, i love my meat/steaks, but thats also extra protein - so im a little confused as to whats on the menu when u try to lower the protein and up the fats?
cream & cheese is all i can think of, and perhaps avocado?

Also, when it comes to fat, im confused as we have monounsaturated, polyunsaturated saturated, transunsaturated etc... which is the fat to avoid, or is it ok since we are limiting carbs?

Last edited by bl0nd3y; 07-23-2013 at 10:58 PM..
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Old 07-24-2013, 05:32 AM   #6
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If your body is doing well on your current diet and you don't need to lose weight, it could just be as simple as slowly working your macros to a more healthy range.

If you currently eat 200 g of protein (do you really? that seems incredibly high) drop it by 50g, then in a few days drop it again.

As far as adding in fats, which fatty foods do you like? Choose fatty meats and eggs. Add butter to veggies. Eat cheeses. Eat salads and put extra dressing on them (my favorite.)

If you start to lose weight you will have to eat more though. How much are you restricting your carbs? If your blood sugar is good (not prediabetic) and you don't have carb cravings, try increasing your carb as per Atkins OWL. Add in nuts, berries, yogurts/cottage cheese (full fat) and you might even be able to eat legumes and occasionally other carby items.

Good luck and enjoy eating.
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Old 07-24-2013, 05:36 AM   #7
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Your thread is titled 'reg low carb,' so I guess I'm not understanding why you want to do the high-fat NK.

Like you (but for different reasons), I need to eat very low calorie to lose (my maintenance level is only 1,100 cal). I also don't do well physically with high fat, so I eat a low-carb diet with moderate fat, which is what Dr. Atkins recommended in 1972. He pointed out that in the normal fat in our foods as using butter and EVOO for cooking, we generally get about 65% fat. To me, that's more than adequate.

I don't avoid fat, but I don't deliberately add it either. I've been maintaining for 3 years, but if I'm up a few pounds and need to lose, I simply drop my fat level (more of a Stillman's approach), and that works for me.

As you point out, if you eat very high fat, it's going to limit the amount of food you can eat.
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Old 07-24-2013, 05:55 AM   #8
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What are your goals? Do you think your current weight is the right weight for you?
Nutritional ketosis can be a healthful way to eat for a lifetime. But if you're fat-phobic, I'm not sure it is the right plan for you.

I think faux foods like baking mixes, protein isolates, and miracle noodles have a place in some plans, but I advocate real food, especially for maintaining.

For your questions, excess protein converts to glucose.
Nutritional ketosis is not dangerous if done correctly.
Fat fasting is done to get into ketosis if you're resistant to entering it. Some people use it to jumpstart weight loss or to break a stall.I don't mean to sound harsh--I often sound harsh--but you might want to examine why you are curious about fat fasting and nutritional ketosis. If it's just another fad for you, it might not be a good choice.

I'd like to see you eating moderate portions of protein from real food like meat, chicken, fish and eggs, a modest amount of carbs from salad, other veggies and the occasional sugar-free treat food, and enough fat to satisfy and round out your calories--- 2-3 tsp olive oil on a salad, an ounce of beautiful cheese for a snack, a dollop of heavy cream in a cup of coffee, and the fat from untrimmed meats.
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Old 07-24-2013, 08:03 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by Leo41 View Post
He pointed out that in the normal fat in our foods as using butter and EVOO for cooking, we generally get about 65% fat.

I don't avoid fat, but I don't deliberately add it either.
I should just say 'ditto' (once again) to Leo's post. I watch my proteins staying with the 1gm per kilo of ideal weight and less than 25 carbs. I don't avoid fats either, using them to cook my eggs in, full fat dressings on salads and things like avocados, bacon and other 'high' fat foods but I also don't deliberately add them just to up the fat. My fats normally come in at 60-65%.

I don't worry about saturated and unsaturated, although I use olive oil in salad dressing and to cook. I've also discovered that I *really* like a bit of garlic sauteed in olive oil and drizzled on my vegies...better than butter.

I would watch the proteins and carbs and let the fats be whatever they will. If you're using one of the online food logs, they'll total it up for you. Then just keep an eye on the fats. If they get too high, look to see how you can cut them a bit. If they get too low, you can always add in fat if you feel the need due to hunger.
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Old 07-24-2013, 01:02 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by bl0nd3y View Post
Thank-you to all of you for your answers. i made an error in my post my actual protein intake is roughly 199g which is still way more than i should consume, So i guess the way i have been going about dieting may be a little harmful. Its just a bit scary when you have always tried to limit fat intake, to purposely eat fat but i guess its time i take the plunge... im kind of stuck between two eating styles, going low carb, but not committing to full fat LOL...

I guess i try to limit my fat intake aswell as i LOVE food, and as fat has more calories to burn than protein or carbs, i figure if i chose to lower fat calories it would allow room for some more calories to be consumed, so i can feel satisfied after eating. where as if i ate foods high in fat, i would have to half the servings i have, which is pretty small already, as i believe all-up calories count, fuel goes in, fuel gets used, excess fuel remains.

when one decides to up their fat intake, what foods should i start to limit myself on?
I know the baking mixes, bread mixes etc that i purchase are made of whey protein isolates, so all baked goods are out, unless theirs a flour alternative?

then theirs eggs = more protein, i love my meat/steaks, but thats also extra protein - so im a little confused as to whats on the menu when u try to lower the protein and up the fats?
cream & cheese is all i can think of, and perhaps avocado?

Also, when it comes to fat, im confused as we have monounsaturated, polyunsaturated saturated, transunsaturated etc... which is the fat to avoid, or is it ok since we are limiting carbs?
A calorie is not the same in all foods. Carbohydrates do not stick with a person, and when they eat them, they tend to eat more. Also, carbohydrates turn to fat easier. Protein can do the same thing if not eaten with fat. I can eat a lot of lean chicken, but not so much of fatty hamburger. You add the fat in to satisfy you and to get the fatty acids that you need. It is better to eat smaller meals of a moderate amount of protein, a small amount of green vegetables, and some fat added to your meal. That will stick with you longer and give you more satisfaction. If you eat starch and sugar, chances are, you will eat more and more often.
Saturated fats are the best for us. Polyunsaturated fats should be limited. Mono-unsaturated fats are ok. I would avoid most vegetable oils except for olive oil and coconut oil. Hydrogenated oils or fats should be avoided. Some nut oils are ok also.
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Old 07-25-2013, 10:50 AM   #11
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Generally people do NK when they are trying to lose weight or stabilize their blood sugar and reprogram their metabolism. If you are doing it for maintenance, well it is a bit tricky, that is what I am doing it for. But that is because through years of experience, I know I can't maintain my weight when my brain is functioning on glucose. In your case, you seem to be doing just fine on the diet you are on, so I would stick with it. I wish I could handle a high protein diet but I can't. If you switch to NK which is a high fat diet, you might find yourself struggling a lot and get frustrated. NK requires that you be a master at your diet. Some people have no choice but to do NK. I know for me it just ends up feeling like I have an eating disorder. If I could handle a HC or HP diet, I would rather do that, but my metabolism is very temperamental. Switching to these types of diets for me would mean either having to exercise all the time to maintain my weight, or returning to being a yoyo dieter.

Another thing that could be an issue, is that in NK weight loss almost seems to be inevitable even when you are trying to maintain. There is something about the state of NK which seems to encourage the body to shed mass, and it isn't always the good kind. You can also lose a lot of muscle and bone too. It is just something to consider. I am trying to find a good maintenance plan myself using NK, but I am still underweight.
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Old 07-25-2013, 01:21 PM   #12
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Generally people do NK when they are trying to lose weight or stabilize their blood sugar and reprogram their metabolism. If you are doing it for maintenance, well it is a bit tricky, that is what I am doing it for. But that is because through years of experience, I know I can't maintain my weight when my brain is functioning on glucose. In your case, you seem to be doing just fine on the diet you are on, so I would stick with it. I wish I could handle a high protein diet but I can't. If you switch to NK which is a high fat diet, you might find yourself struggling a lot and get frustrated. NK requires that you be a master at your diet. Some people have no choice but to do NK. I know for me it just ends up feeling like I have an eating disorder. If I could handle a HC or HP diet, I would rather do that, but my metabolism is very temperamental. Switching to these types of diets for me would mean either having to exercise all the time to maintain my weight, or returning to being a yoyo dieter.

Another thing that could be an issue, is that in NK weight loss almost seems to be inevitable even when you are trying to maintain. There is something about the state of NK which seems to encourage the body to shed mass, and it isn't always the good kind. You can also lose a lot of muscle and bone too. It is just something to consider. I am trying to find a good maintenance plan myself using NK, but I am still underweight.
What makes you say that a person can lose muscle and bone on NK? As long as you eat enough protein and fat, you should not lose muscle and bone mass. Most people eat some carbs also.
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Old 07-27-2013, 09:26 AM   #13
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Because Keto diets are catabolic diets, meant to break down mass. When I switched to a keto diet I lost 8lbs of muscle and some bone mass. I track my body composition changes with DEXA scans. I didn't lose any muscle and bone mass when I did a HC diet. But that is just my experience. Maybe other people don't lose any muscle and bone when on a keto diet. The only way to know is to track your body composition while experimenting with diet.
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Old 07-27-2013, 06:07 PM   #14
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Because Keto diets are catabolic diets, meant to break down mass. When I switched to a keto diet I lost 8lbs of muscle and some bone mass. I track my body composition changes with DEXA scans. I didn't lose any muscle and bone mass when I did a HC diet. But that is just my experience. Maybe other people don't lose any muscle and bone when on a keto diet. The only way to know is to track your body composition while experimenting with diet.
Punkin, I wonder if your fat storage disease makes your diet affect your body composition differently than most people. Because research shows that a low carb, moderate protein, high fat diet has a lean-body mass sparing effect, much more so than a high carb, low fat diet which tends to cause muscle loss during weight loss.
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Old 07-28-2013, 12:53 PM   #15
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Because Keto diets are catabolic diets, meant to break down mass. When I switched to a keto diet I lost 8lbs of muscle and some bone mass. I track my body composition changes with DEXA scans. I didn't lose any muscle and bone mass when I did a HC diet. But that is just my experience. Maybe other people don't lose any muscle and bone when on a keto diet. The only way to know is to track your body composition while experimenting with diet.

Maybe it was what you were eating and not the diet by itself. Maybe you needed to add some cheese to your diet to add in calcium and also some vitamin D3 in the form of fish or fish oil.
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