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Old 07-03-2013, 08:45 AM   #1
Chatty Cathy
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This might be good as a skicky... what do you think?

This was posted by raindropsandroses and I think it is chock full of great info for a person starting n.k. or even for those that need to remind themselves... what do you think:

Welcome to the June High Fat 80/15/5 NK thread!

Our goal is a healthy LC high fat macro and mandatory daily protein regimen resulting in a state of Nutritional Ketosis. Ideal ratios for fat range from about 65% to 85% of calories. Protein is kept moderate. Total carbs are 50g or less. The short version is: Eat your required protein grams, keep total carbs low and the rest of your calories are fat. This is not a very low calorie thread.

In his book, Dr. Phinney recommends 1.5-2.0g/kg reference weight for protein grams. Separately Dr. Phinney has said that he leans towards 1.0-1.5g/kg reference weight. Reference weight is the appropriate weight for your height. It is important to use the correct weight for the formula because overeating protein can interfere with weight loss. So use the right weight even if you have a higher intermediate goal weight.

The formula looks like this: (goal_weight/2.2)*1.5 = daily protein grams.

For example: Your goal weight is 150

(150/2.2)*1.5 = 102g protein a day.

Protein II
Use the 1.5g/kg from the published book as your start point. If you need to you can fall back to the 1.0-1.5g/kg range. See this post.
Most of your calories should come from fat.
50g total carbs (not net) or less. Start low on carbs.
According to Dr. Phinney, an obese person burns about 30kCal per kg of weight and a moderately active adult close to their correct weight burns 35kCal per kg of weight. He attributes the difference, 30 to 35, to an obese person being more sedentary than a person at the right weight for their body.

From page 207 of The Art and Science of Low Carb Living:

"As an aside, the casual reader might protest that these energy expenditure numbers look pretty high. But for anyone that has worked with obese humans in a metabolic research ward, 30kcal per kg of actual body weight in the sedentary obese and 35 kcal/kg in the post-obese moderately active adult are actually quite conservative expenditure values."

For example: You are fat, your goal weight is 150 and right now you weigh 225.

225lb current calorie expenditure --> (225/2.2)*30 = 3068
150lb goal weight calorie expenditure --> (150/2.2)*35 = 2386
Calories II
How much should you eat? I don't know but it is probably not as little as you think. Use the formula to guestimate your current calorie expenditure and then start with 500 less calories. In the example above, that'd be a start point of about 2500 a day.

There are many health risks related to eating very low calories, like loss of lean body mass and metabolism down regulation, and it is hard to stick to a plan with very low calories. Very low calorie plans frequently result in binges which will wreck your efforts at NK. Start high and work down as needed but go down slowly. Panic is the enemy of success.
Macro ratios are a great tool to help you keep an eye on what you are doing but they can be very deceptive. 15% protein at 1500 calories is very different from 15% at 3000 calories. You can have great looking macros that are hiding terrible real numbers. Don't get stuck on macro percentages. Always check your protein grams to make sure you are eating to your goal.
Daily/Weekly Weigh-Ins
Do you weigh in daily or weekly? Totally up to you! I weigh in daily because I like the constant feedback. *BUT*, if you choose to do daily weigh-ins you have to accept that daily weights are a snapshot in time only. They are interesting data points but that is all and they are meaningless without the context of time. In other words, weigh-in daily if you want but pay attention to the trend not the individual snapshot of weight.
Tape Measure
You should measure yourself periodically. Knowing that you are losing inches can help keep you from wildly tweaking what you are doing when what you are doing is working even if the scale is saying otherwise. And it feels good to know you have lost inches.
Consider your own health condition and any Rx meds but... low carb is not a low sodium way of eating or living. You *must* get your sodium in or your body will suffer. It might suffer silently for a long time before it finally breaks. Or it might express itself as agonizing leg cramps. Those cramps are caused by dehydration and/or a potassium deficiency but if you are a low sodium consumer then your sodium deficiency is contributing to your potassium loss and dehydration. The body excretes potassium if it is forced to conserve sodium because you are not getting enough. That is how important sodium is to your body. Phinney advises 5 Grams of sodium daily. That is a lot of sodium. Fear not! Unless you are going out of your way to eat low sodium you are probably getting 2 to 4 grams in your food every day. A little extra use of the salt shaker will fix up most people just fine. It is worth taking a look at how much sodium you are getting if you use a food logger. Table salt is not one for one on sodium grams. Google for the conversion 'how much sodium in table salt'. If you've been a casual low sodium person then you should pay careful attention to what you are eating and dun your former salt eschewing ways.

The body will cannabalize LBM for potassium if it has to. So, low sodium -> sacrifice potassium -> rob lean tissue for potassium -> poor LC results.
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Old 07-03-2013, 01:13 PM   #2
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Very useful. The part about sodium is very true for me.
Are there any ready lists about protein amounts in common protein sources?
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Old 07-03-2013, 01:17 PM   #3
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Cathy, that's good info for folks who are looking for a guideline for somewhere to begin.

Here is a link to the explanation for following Dr. Jan Kwasniewski's guidelines for calculating protein, fat, and carbs.

And Peter D. made a comment after his blog post, "Weight Loss, when it's hard, part one", about protein at .8 of due (ideal) body weight, fat at 1.5, and carbs at .3 - 5.

Dr. Kwasniewski's due (ideal) body weight is one's height in centimers, minus 100, and the protein amount is ten percent plus or minus from that figure.

Example: Height of 160 cm, minus 100 = 60 Kg due/ideal weight.

Protein amount: 54 - 66 grams (After one is accustomed to the diet, drop the protein grams to .8 of due body weight.)

Fat is 2.5 - 3.5 times the protein grams. Weight loss amount can be down to 1.5.

Carbs at .5 - .8 of protein grams. Weight loss amount can be down to .3.

Dr. Wolfgang Lutz wrote in Life Without Bread that it can take months or years to be fully adapted to an LC diet, and that if someone has poor health, that sometimes the adaptation never fully occurs, and that the only way to make progress with improving one's health is to keep at it.

Barry Groves' site, Second Opinions, has great info on it, for those who want more information and don't have the budget for the Volek/Phinney books, or for Dr. Kwasniewski's or Dr. Lutz's.
LCHF Sub-forum
Seriously Carnivore thread

Moderate amount PRO: Measured FAT: Very Low CHO = Low Insulin Diet
Daily Callanetics, modified to a "T"
Senior Yoga; slow walks enjoying the outdoors

GOALS: drink more water, eat more salt, go outside more

Last edited by Auntie Em; 07-03-2013 at 01:18 PM.. Reason: clarification
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Old 07-03-2013, 09:49 PM   #4
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I think that was originally posted by reddarin in some of the older monthly threads. She posted it after he disappeared. Now it seems she has too?

ETA: If you take a look at the April thread, there used to be number of posts he would put at the beginning of the monthly thread. All of those together would make a great sticky. High Fat NK 80/15/5 - April Version

Last edited by Mistizoom; 07-03-2013 at 09:51 PM..
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Old 07-04-2013, 06:29 AM   #5
Chatty Cathy
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Oh, I was never a fan of that thread at that time and therefore never read it. He left behind some good info despite all.
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Old 07-06-2013, 06:24 PM   #6
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Old 07-07-2013, 08:09 AM   #7
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Bella, I use the following for PRO amounts:

Cooked meat: 6 - 7 grams per ounce of meat
Whole egg: 6 grams
Egg yolk: 3 grams
HH: one ounce at .9g
HWC: one ounce at .6g
Cheese: 7g (it varies, I check the labels)

Is that the kind of protein amount list you meant?

Some vegs have a bit of protein, but I don't worry about tracking that much, as I don't eat large amounts of plant matter.
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Old 07-07-2013, 08:13 AM   #8
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Yes, thanks so much Auntie Em!
I am trying to get a handle on my daily protein needs, as it appears to be a constant. I have a good grasp of carbs, but need to settle into a good plan for meeting protein needs, but not excessive.
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Old 07-10-2013, 02:36 PM   #9
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Bella, I find it easy to keep the carbs low, and find it much more of a challenge not to go too high on the protein. Dr. Richard Bernstein's Law of Small Numbers helped me a great deal in finding constant amounts. I like eating 2 - 2 1/2 ounces of meat or some combination of egg/cheese per meal, and a few carbs, with the rest animal fats.

Also, another thing that helps me, is to eat the ratio of one part protein to three parts fat (going by total calories) in each bite. Dr. Richard Mackarness made a point of stating that that ratio needs to be in each forkful.

Hope this helps.
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Old 07-19-2013, 04:21 PM   #10
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Thanks for this thread. After you mentioned not focusing on the macros, but on the numbers, I had to check out NK. Just to clarify, I do pay attention to my grams and not the percentages. Just seemed more accurate for what I was trying to accomplish.
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