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-   -   actionzen - BMR (http://www.lowcarbfriends.com/bbs/nutritional-ketosis-high-fat-low-carb/803270-actionzen-bmr.html)

drjlocarb 05-02-2013 06:55 AM

actionzen - BMR
 
Hi actionzen!

:welcome:

I am one who eats at or below BMR so I can lose. I had to drop calories(fat) once I got the bld ketones to a NK level.

actionzen 05-02-2013 09:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drjlocarb (Post 16404904)
Hi actionzen!

:welcome:

I am one who eats at or below BMR so I can lose. I had to drop calories(fat) once I got the bld ketones to a NK level.

Hi and thank you for responding. I'm just curious because the calories in calories out is a debatable at this moment, as there arguments for and against the theory.

Have you stalled at one point in time, or did you reach your ideal weight/body comp levels you were seeking while dropping your caloric intake.

drjlocarb 05-02-2013 10:11 AM

I was stalled on low carb for 2 years! I messed with everything until I found out about NK on Jimmy's blog.
http://www.lowcarbfriends.com/bbs/lo...-official.html It's a long thread, but you will get an idea of my frustration.

I started messing with ratios and calories last fall but didn't started tracking bld ketones and bld glucose until Jan 1st this year. Last year I upped my calories(fat), decreased protein and quickly gained 10 lbs(up to 248). By Jan I was stuck at 244 doing generic NK and watching protein. Since then I have been testing, dropped calories, and been able to lose 18 lbs (226 today) and stay in NK.

I calculated my BMR on the keto calculator--Google it. If you are inactive, it shows your BMR at about 2000 calories and expenditure at 2500.

At this point, I am eating about 70% fat, 80g ptn, and less than 20 net carbs. I did have it up to 80-90% fat to get into NK.

PS. I am no where NEAR ideal weight.....yet

lisamt 05-02-2013 10:25 AM

I'm not the OP, but wanted to add that age and gender may affect whether someone can eat to BMR and still lose weight on NK.

I'm 5'2", female, and over 50 years old. Online calculators give me a TDEE of 1823 and BMR of 1519. I lose slowly but steadily eating at a small deficit of 1400 calories on NK. I tried eating 1600-1700 calories per day for 2 weeks in March, and neither gained or lost any weight.

actionzen 05-02-2013 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drjlocarb (Post 16405362)
I was stalled on low carb for 2 years! I messed with everything until I found out about NK on Jimmy's blog.
http://www.lowcarbfriends.com/bbs/lo...-official.html It's a long thread, but you will get an idea of my frustration.

I started messing with ratios and calories last fall but didn't started tracking bld ketones and bld glucose until Jan 1st this year. Last year I upped my calories(fat), decreased protein and quickly gained 10 lbs(up to 248). By Jan I was stuck at 244 doing generic NK and watching protein. Since then I have been testing, dropped calories, and been able to lose 18 lbs (226 today) and stay in NK.

I calculated my BMR on the keto calculator--Google it. If you are inactive, it shows your BMR at about 2000 calories and expenditure at 2500.

At this point, I am eating about 70% fat, 80g ptn, and less than 20 net carbs. I did have it up to 80-90% fat to get into NK.

PS. I am no where NEAR ideal weight.....yet

Thank you for sharing your experience. You have made great strides and are doing awesome. Sounds like after you adjusted, things began to click for you. I think you and I are both are affected by CICO (I think the jury is still out on CICO). I think NK requires us to be systematic in the changes we make by changing one variable at a time, increase protein, reduce fat, reduce caloric intake, etc. My next adjustment will either be:

1. Adjust calories down for a week
2. Maintain calories and increase protein and reduce fats

Not sure which one and depends on my measurements tomorrow.

Your story sounds very familiar, as I've been stuck for a long time (1 yr) as well, but not really focusing on trying to lose during a period of time. I wanted to lose the belly fat that I was carrying around and came across Jimmy's n=1 blog as well and read every one of his posts. Here comes obsession back into my life and never ending internet searches. :lol: And ultimately deciding NK is the right path.

Great chatting. Please keep me informed of any tweaks you decide on. I'm totally new to this so maybe you have ideas that I haven't thought of or vis versa, which also applies to the rest of you NKer's.

actionzen 05-02-2013 05:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lisamt (Post 16405394)
I'm not the OP, but wanted to add that age and gender may affect whether someone can eat to BMR and still lose weight on NK.

I'm 5'2", female, and over 50 years old. Online calculators give me a TDEE of 1823 and BMR of 1519. I lose slowly but steadily eating at a small deficit of 1400 calories on NK. I tried eating 1600-1700 calories per day for 2 weeks in March, and neither gained or lost any weight.


Come on now!! 50 is the new 40....right:D. Very interesting and the amount of time spent on earth plays probably does play a factor...what is it, our metabolism decreases by 1% every year. I think mine has decreased by at least 2%.

thanks for sharing. If you don't mind me asking, what is TDEE. The nutrition world is turning into the IT world...so many acronyms, i can't keep track of all of them.

I think at my ideal weight my BMR is 2000 with light activity, which I am, it's like 2,500. I was told to eat 20% below your idea, which is roughly 2100. I was at about 2,200 before I began measuring my ketone/glucose levels and stayed at 212#. I did eat around 2000 for a couple days, and dropped like 4#. When I do go to 2000 kcals a day, I'm kinda feeling hungry in the morning, as I try to eat as late as possible. Those extra 200 calories really make a lot of difference. Now when I ate 2,380 yesterday, I didn't have to eat till 1:00pm today.

drjlocarb 05-02-2013 06:31 PM

Hey!! 50 is not old!

One of the ways I decided on my protein levels was by checking my fasting blood glucose. Mine was very high (120-130) when I was eating LC. I am sure, while stalled, gluconeogenesis from excess protein was keeping me from producing blood ketones. I still showed ketones on the urine sticks so I though I was doing everything right. As I dropped my protein, the fbg also dropped (95-100 now) and blood ketones went up.

lisamt 05-02-2013 08:00 PM

I hope 50 isn't old, because if I take after my mom's side of the family I may live to be over 100. Now that is old! :)

TDEE is short for Total Daily Energy Expenditure. It's an estimate of the number of calories your body needs to function in a day. TDEE is slightly higher than BMR because it takes daily activity into account.

actionzen 05-02-2013 08:42 PM

Exercise: Hiking - 12:00 40 minutes

Lunch - 1:00pm

2 Jumbo Free Range Eggs, 4 oz Grass Fed Beef, 3 oz kale, 3 Tbsp Coconut Oil, 2 Teaspoons of Lemon Juice, 2.1 oz Avacado, 2 Brazil Nuts, 1 tsp Fish Oil

Dinner: 6:30pm

7.8 oz Grass Fed Beef, 3 oz Organic Mixed Green Salad, 1.75 Tbsp ACV, 2 Tbsp Olive Oil, 1.5 Tbsp MCT Oil, 1 Tsp Fish Oil


Calories: 1,996

Fats: 182 (80.8)
Protein: 83 (16.3)
Carbs: 14.9 (2.9%)

A bit under for my caloric intake, but I'm really not that hungry. Let's see how my body reacts.

actionzen 05-02-2013 08:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lisamt (Post 16406394)
I hope 50 isn't old, because if I take after my mom's side of the family I may live to be over 100. Now that is old! :)

TDEE is short for Total Daily Energy Expenditure. It's an estimate of the number of calories your body needs to function in a day. TDEE is slightly higher than BMR because it takes daily activity into account.


Not at all...you're in your prime. I hope I live till I'm 100. You have good genetics in your family. I have cancer on one side and heart disease on the other. I always thought I would live till I was 60 and now I have hope with trying to get my fat down and my nutrition dialed in.

Thanks for helping me understand what TDEE is...I get it. Thanks.

actionzen 05-02-2013 08:49 PM

wait did i say something wrong with my comment of 50 is the new 40. Isn't that saying a different way of saying that you feel younger than your age is or am I getting the expression totally wrong. If I offended anyone, I'm so sorry, but I always saw that comment as a positive thing. Whoops, again I'm so sorry.

actionzen 05-02-2013 08:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drjlocarb (Post 16406225)
Hey!! 50 is not old!

One of the ways I decided on my protein levels was by checking my fasting blood glucose. Mine was very high (120-130) when I was eating LC. I am sure, while stalled, gluconeogenesis from excess protein was keeping me from producing blood ketones. I still showed ketones on the urine sticks so I though I was doing everything right. As I dropped my protein, the fbg also dropped (95-100 now) and blood ketones went up.

Please see previous comment. I'm sorry if I offended in anyway. I was trying to be complimentary. whoops if it came off the wrong way.

Another interesting observation regarding protein and glucose. when you had higher protein levels, were you still losing weight (I should really say body fat)?

actionzen 05-02-2013 08:55 PM

I have another question, anyone getting gurgles (not sure what to call it) in their stomach after eating a NK meal? I never had this gurgling sound until I tried this NK WOE. It doesn't hurt but my stomach likes to talk to me up to an hour after I eat.

Punkin 05-02-2013 09:07 PM

Also another thing to consider is that BMR also depends on whether your body is in an anabolic state or a catabolic state. I notice my BMR was higher on a high carb diet than when I was on a low carb diet. On the low carb diet, I am in ketosis so it means a catabolic state. To lose weight I have to eat below 1500cal a day. Where in the anabolic state which was when I was on a high carb diet, I could lose weight eating around 1750+ cal/day. I don't know why but it could have something to do with how the body conserves energy when in the catabolic state. I think of it like an animal collecting and eating lots of food to prepare for hibernation over the winter. We don't hibernate but our ancestors experienced times of severe famine in the winter or when food was scarce. So it could be related to that.

drjlocarb 05-02-2013 09:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by actionzen (Post 16406458)
wait did i say something wrong with my comment of 50 is the new 40. Isn't that saying a different way of saying that you feel younger than your age is or am I getting the expression totally wrong. If I offended anyone, I'm so sorry, but I always saw that comment as a positive thing. Whoops, again I'm so sorry.

:hyst: No one is offended. We are just happy to be 50! Relax.

drjlocarb 05-02-2013 09:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by actionzen (Post 16406464)

Another interesting observation regarding protein and glucose. when you had higher protein levels, were you still losing weight (I should really say body fat)?

I think the reason I was stalled for so long was because I was eating higher protein, pre-NK days. The first 2 months of this year I was tweeking the protein levels and watching the blood ketone and glucose levels until the number were right and then lower the fat.

actionzen 05-02-2013 09:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drjlocarb (Post 16406491)
:hyst: No one is offended. We are just happy to be 50! Relax.

So relaxed and relieved. Thank god.

lisamt 05-02-2013 10:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by actionzen (Post 16406455)
Not at all...you're in your prime. I hope I live till I'm 100. You have good genetics in your family. I have cancer on one side and heart disease on the other. I always thought I would live till I was 60 and now I have hope with trying to get my fat down and my nutrition dialed in.

Thanks for helping me understand what TDEE is...I get it. Thanks.

I'm very lucky in that there is no history of heart disease, breast cancer, or diabetes in my family. Despite my genetics, I used to think I would not live to be 50 and yet here I am.

Oh and I did not take offense at 50 is the new 40! I thought it was a good thing. :)

actionzen 05-03-2013 02:34 PM

Thought I'd share with you'll as i did with the other NK post. Pretty happy.

Morning Measurements: 6:59 am

Ketones: 3.4
Glucose: 72

Weight: 209.8
Body Fat %: 19.5%
Lean Body Mass: 168.9 (down .231 lbs)

Fat Mass: 40.9 (down 1.27 lbs)
Waist: 39.25"
Chest: 43.25"
Thigh: 21.5"
Arm: 15"
Total: 119" (down 2")

So I gained a pound from yesterday, could be any number of things, but I'm pretty shocked at my overall numbers. I've lost 1.37 lbs of fat mass from a week ago and 2" total from my body. Not too shabby. My ketone levels are the highest they've ever read and glucose is low. I don't think i need to be that high, but it seems like if I eat roughly 2,000 kcals and my macros are approximately 81/15/4 give or take a percentage point, my ketone levels stay pretty high level. So the one stat I am concerned with is the drop in lean body mass, which I understand to be typical with fat loss. What if I were to increase my protein intake a bit and reduce my fat intake a bit. Will that preserve my lean body mass and permit fat loss as well. Let the experiment begin. So for this week, even thought things seem to be going well, my macro levels will be adjusted to 78/18/4, but will maintain my caloric intake at 2100.

Last, I'm going to be taking measurements every two days from here on out.

Lindy in Louisiana 05-03-2013 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by actionzen (Post 16406464)
Please see previous comment. I'm sorry if I offended in anyway. I was trying to be complimentary. whoops if it came off the wrong way.

Another interesting observation regarding protein and glucose. when you had higher protein levels, were you still losing weight (I should really say body fat)?

I'm sure nobody took offense. It IS a compliment. And being in my 60's I understand it. You seem to be spot on for your diet. The 80/15/5. It's just that. If I deviate at all up or down from my set point of 15-1600 calories I don't see a loss.

Why don't you check our site NK 80/15/5 for more friends.

actionzen 05-03-2013 03:18 PM

Thanks Lindy. I think I'm still in my 20's and loving it. LOL!

I'm also posting on another NK thread, which re-occurs monthly. i posted a few questions trying to see how group members in NK were adjusting to get results...in terms of protein/fat adjustment and caloric intake adjustments. Some people think calories is the end all be all, whereas some are not affected by caloric intake at all. My body seems to responding to lowering my caloric intake and BMR is one of the key metrics for determining daily caloric intake.

drjlocarb 05-03-2013 03:28 PM

Looks great action.

I think 83g of protein is really low for someone your height. With your ketones so high and glucose normal, I don't think it would hurt to increase it to around 110g. Staying within a ratio range is great, but using actual grams is a better way to make sure you are getting enough to support you LBM.

actionzen 05-03-2013 06:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drjlocarb (Post 16407768)
Looks great action.

I think 83g of protein is really low for someone your height. With your ketones so high and glucose normal, I don't think it would hurt to increase it to around 110g. Staying within a ratio range is great, but using actual grams is a better way to make sure you are getting enough to support you LBM.

Why thank you. I hope increasing my protein levels will support my LBM and continue my fat loss. Wish me luck.

Good night and have a great weekend.

actionzen 05-06-2013 01:32 PM

So I've been eating about 2050 calories a day, which 150 kcals above my resting BMR levels. I've lost weight steadily and am now experimenting with the higher protein levels. so far so good. My ketone levels have dropped to 2.0 from it's peak of 3.4, but I figure if I'm losing fat that's all that matters.

How is everyone else doing?

drjlocarb 05-06-2013 03:36 PM

Hey action, :hiya: Once I started tweeking, my ketones dropped too. I guess eating higher fat is great for blood testing, but it was not so good for me to lose weight. I am running lower (0.5-0.7) most days. I'll take the lower readings if it means I am losing.

I made a big, thick,juicy, steak on the grill last night and ate too much. Oh well, I will eat higher fat today.

You are young enough I hope you will be able to get this under control without much trouble.

actionzen 05-06-2013 07:56 PM

Hi Drj, I want to find that sweet spot. I think the increase is pretty minimal and I'll see how my ketone read tomorrow. I am noticing the metal taste and smell in my urine has dissipated, which could be a sign that my body is using all of the ketones for energy.

The reading is definitely less important if you're losing. I hope I stay at 207# and it all turns to muscle. :-) I wish!!!

OMG, so jealous that you get to eat a juicy steak. You know what's great about eating steak now...no trimming necessary. Just take the fat and eat it. I also don't think eating more fat is the problem.. you'll hold steady. How bad can that be. You sound like you're enjoying yourself and that is the best part of this WOE. Enjoy!!!

Age doesn't matter, it's about diligence and staying on top of things. I'm more prone to peer pressure. My friend and GF giving me a bunch of crap for eating like maniac...I can't wait to reach my goals.

BTW, I've been reading through a lot of these threads, and there is a person named darin that is full of NK knowledge. What happened to him?

Good to hear from you. I'll keep you posted on this weeks experiment.

MRSKUBY 05-07-2013 07:09 AM

I can't seem to get my ketones levels much above .4 in the morning. I have been tracking and I'm finding that I tend to eat too much protein so I am trying to cut down and add more fat.

I haven't been losing and while I'm sure it's got something to do with my workouts, I would feel much better if I could see my ketone levels up a bit. It's all just a big experiment! :stars:

drjlocarb 05-07-2013 07:29 AM

You are right, fat isn't the problem. I do eat high fat, I just don't add a lot of extra now that my body is using what I have stored. I lowered calories (fat) when I knew I was keto-adapted (my ketones reached such a high level) because my protein and carbs are already at the lower end. I still eat a high fat diet, (yes, the steak fat is yummy), I just cut down on the coconut candy and fat bombs to lower calories from food.

I look at it this way, I am still consuming a very high fat, high calorie diet, but part of the fat (calories) I am consuming is body fat. I am getting several hundred calories a day from my own body fat to cover the "energy expenditure" levels recommended. That means the calories I USE each day are higher than the calories I eat.

When I talked about age, what I meant was that you probably haven't ruined your metabolism by yo-yo dieting for the last 20 years. :) I do see the conflicts you are facing with social pressure. I didn't think about that, but you have to do what works for you.

Please do keep us posted on your progress.

actionzen 05-07-2013 09:42 AM

May 6, 2013

Measurements: 8:00 am

Weight: 206
Ketones: 2.7
Glucose: 80

Weight continues a downward trend, with ketones are rising again and glucose has stabilized, while changing my macro ratios with the increase in protein. Feeling excited.

actionzen 05-07-2013 09:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MRSKUBY (Post 16412907)
I can't seem to get my ketones levels much above .4 in the morning. I have been tracking and I'm finding that I tend to eat too much protein so I am trying to cut down and add more fat.

I haven't been losing and while I'm sure it's got something to do with my workouts, I would feel much better if I could see my ketone levels up a bit. It's all just a big experiment! :stars:


I saw another post where this person went 90% fat intake and had really high readings, but I don't think that's the best route. I read an article recently where changing to a LC immediately may cause some thyroid issues in the short run. If you were already LC prior to NK then I wouldn't worry about it, but it's something to keep in mind. Google: drcate going low carb too fast may trigger thyroid troubles and hormone imbalance

Where r u at with your macro ratios?

The proteins are hard to dial in.

When I started I was eating higher protein as well..closer to 75/20/5, but when I changed to 80/15/5 I noticed all the physical symptoms, but no weight loss. After I reduced my calories a bit, I noticed weight loss, but LBM as well. Now that I've changed over and increased my protein levels, my ketone levels aren't as high, but I continue to see me lose weight. Also the physical symptoms, metal taste and smells, have subsided. I'm eating about 100-150 kcals above my BMR of my ideal weight of 190.


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