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Old 04-17-2013, 09:31 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raindroproses View Post
Is it possible your blood glucose lowers because you're producing more ketones?
I don't think so. I asked Dr. Eades if blood ketones were dependent on glucose levels and he said no.
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Old 04-17-2013, 09:45 AM   #32
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If I get a number that seems too high/too low, I immediately wash my hands, dry them very well, and test again. I also make sure I have a slightly-larger-than-necessary sample.
(A tiny bit of water on your finger could dilute the sample and give a very low reading. Also, if the strip sucked up your sample and there was no blood at all leftover, it could be the sample was a bit too small, also giving an inaccurate reading.)

That 46 reading could be completely inaccurate. I would not worry about it at all unless you tested at least twice in a row
and got a similar low number.
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Old 04-17-2013, 10:04 AM   #33
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My blood glucose is definitely tied to my ketone levels. When my morning glucose is on the lower side, my ketones are higher.
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Old 04-17-2013, 10:33 AM   #34
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Here is an excerpt of my question to the Doctor.

"Is there any (causal) relationship between BG and Ketone levels?...Do you have any tips on what might be causing consistently low levels of ketones despite those facts? "

And Doctor Eades' reply:

"No, there is not really a causal relationship between BG and ketones. People with type I diabetes can have extremely high levels of both ketones and blood sugar. Typically insulin shuts down the production of ketones, so when people eat carbs, they stimulate an insulin response, which shuts down the production of ketones"
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Old 04-17-2013, 12:21 PM   #35
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Cathy you asked if my blood glucose levels were truly coordinated with my blood ketones. Check this out;

Date- bk - bg
1-17, 0.2- 117
1-18, 0.5- 110
1-19, 0.3- 112
1-20, 0.3- 112
1-21, 0.5- 111
1-22, 0.5- 111
1-23, 0.2- 115
1-24, 1.3- 109

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Last edited by drjlocarb; 01-24-2013 at 09:03 AM..


He is talking about T1 and we are talking about NK, LC non-diabetic people.

Last edited by drjlocarb; 04-17-2013 at 12:23 PM..
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Old 04-17-2013, 12:37 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drjlocarb View Post
He is talking about T1 and we are talking about NK, LC non-diabetic people.
That is incorrect. Maybe it was unclear because I edited out extraneous material?

Here is full exchange. Notice that I specifically exclude diabetes from the equation:
"Dr. Eades,

What is the relationship, or is there, between blood glucose levels and ketone levels? Specifically, would BG levels of 100+ preclude achieving a ketone range of .5 to 3.0? It seems like such a simple question but why? Are insulin levels automatically high with that level of BG? That is, is a BG like that impossible without high insulin levels?

Why would a non-diabetic have BG readings of 100+ on a strict LC diet? Does it indicate liver damage?

I’m intensely curious because an internet friend of mine has this problem."
His response, also having nothing to do with diabetes:
"If the person in question has been on a strict low-carb diet for a while, I would bet the problem is dehydration. Have your friend start consuming considerably more water each day, and I suspect the blood sugar will normalize. I, myself, drink 16 oz of water first thing every morning, then maintain my fluid intake throughout the day."
...but he did not answer the question I was really curious about - BG and ketone levels - so I asked him directly:
"Interesting. Thank you sir.

Is there any (causal) relationship between BG and Ketone levels?

There are actually two of them and both cannot seem to crest the .5 mark and when they do they can’t maintain it. But both are VLC. They both moderate their protein so they are not over consuming it. They keep fat high as a percentage > 65%.

Do you have any tips on what might be causing consistently low levels of ketones despite those facts? Other than, of course, they are not being truthful about their macros."
His response directly answering my question about BG and ketone levels:
"No, there is not really a causal relationship between BG and ketones. People with type I diabetes can have extremely high levels of both ketones and blood sugar. Typically insulin shuts down the production of ketones, so when people eat carbs, they stimulate an insulin response, which shuts down the production of ketones.

Often when people are on low-carb diets for a period of time, they adapt to the ketones and become very efficient at using them, so despite almost no carbs in the diet, their ketone levels are low."
He mentions T1 to support his statement that there isn't a causal relationship.
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Old 04-17-2013, 01:24 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drjlocarb View Post
Cathy you asked if my blood glucose levels were truly coordinated with my blood ketones. Check this out;

Date- bk - bg
1-17, 0.2- 117
1-18, 0.5- 110
1-19, 0.3- 112
1-20, 0.3- 112
1-21, 0.5- 111
1-22, 0.5- 111
1-23, 0.2- 115
1-24, 1.3- 109

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Last edited by drjlocarb; 01-24-2013 at 09:03 AM..


He is talking about T1 and we are talking about NK, LC non-diabetic people.
Thanks for sharing that Drjlo! My #'s don't correlate that way. Here is a sampling..

ketones 2.1 fasting b.g 4.8
ketones 3.1 fasting b.g 4.7
ketones 1.7 fasting b.g 5.4
ketones 1.3 fasting b.g 5.1
ketones 1.1 fasting b.g 5.1
ketones 1.3 fasting b.g 5.3
ketones 1.9 fasting b.g. 5.6
ketones 2.0 fasting b.g. 6.2

This was over a period of about 2 wks. and I had just finished with the berberine so the effect was probably still seen with the first 2 readings.
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Old 04-17-2013, 01:52 PM   #38
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reddarin, are you sure he realized you were talking about blood ketones and not urinary ketones? I see you said 0.5-3.0, but he said blood glucose and didn't say blood ketones in his response.

Here are more of my test results;

date bk-bg
3-7--2.3-98
3-8--2.6-93
3-9--3.0-83
3-10-2.4-100
3-11-1.9-107


There is absolutely a correlation in my blood tests. As I worked to get my blood ketones up, my blood glucose is going down.
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Old 04-17-2013, 02:05 PM   #39
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Cathy, your test levels do correlate somewhat until that last one. Have you been keeping the protein levels the same? Have you changed the fat sources? I do see lower ketones and higher glucose when I eat the majority of my protein for dinner.

It could be that you do need to continue the berberine. It's hard to say when you are working on getting the thyroid optimized too. Have you been back for a re-test since starting the thyroid treatment?
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Old 04-17-2013, 02:31 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drjlocarb View Post
reddarin, are you sure he realized you were talking about blood ketones and not urinary ketones? I see you said 0.5-3.0, but he said blood glucose and didn't say blood ketones in his response.

Aside from the fact that ketostix are never referred to with anything other than the color? Or that there is no apparent way to get a .5-3.0 assay from a urine stick? Another poster responded to his last reply to me with this:
"when you are talking about ketone measurements, shouldn’t they be talking about using a blood ketone meter (similar to a BG meter) You can show very little in urine, the more adapted you are."
...and his response was:
"Yep. Urine is a rough measurement. But blood measurement gives a better idea when ketone adapted."
Quote:
There is absolutely a correlation in my blood tests.
Okay but correlation is not causation. If I wasn't clear about that in my first post concerning it, it was clear when I quoted my question to the doctor and his response to me.

/shrug
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Old 04-17-2013, 03:02 PM   #41
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OK, I see.
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Old 04-17-2013, 07:07 PM   #42
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I haven't been testing for very long but I have noticed my ketones fluctuating more according to my hydration status, the size of my meals and also my fasting behaviours. I went 48hrs without eating due to a stomach flu and my blood ketones went way up. I guess it makes sense, but it is interesting to note trends. I can see why a fat fast would work for some people.
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Old 04-18-2013, 06:08 AM   #43
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Well, my fasting blood glucose was 83 this morning which seems to fall into the healthy range... so I'm thinking yesterday was either a fluke, certain things really mess with my levels and I didn't do that yesterday, or my thyroid/adrenals intermittently cause me trouble with metabolizing glucose. I also didn't take my thyroid meds yesterday (I take them every other day currently because I'm trying to get on something new soon) so that could have something to do with it, because reactive hypoglycemia can be a side effect of that medicine in some people... and it's triggered it before.

I'll keep testing and run it again tomorrow to see what it says, since I'm due for my medicine tonight.
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Old 04-19-2013, 04:29 AM   #44
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Raindroproses. Can you give a sample of your typical daily menu? It might be helpful, just to get a sense of what you're eating.
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Old 04-19-2013, 06:21 AM   #45
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Sure, my menu's looked the same just about for the past few days with just minor tweaks here and there

Yesterday looked like this:

B - hard boiled egg, bulletproof tea (1T of EVCO and 1T of HWC)
L - 1 cup of unsweetened almond breeze almond milk with a little protein powder and some SF Torani, 1 Oscar Mayer New York Style Selects hot dog, hard boiled egg
D - 1.5 cups of shredded cabbage, 8oz ground hamburger meat 75% fat, 1/8 cup of Bertolli Alfredo sauce, 2t sambal oelek chili paste, 1/2T butter
S - 2 cups of unsweetened almond breeze almond milk with SF Torani, daily (small) piece of 88% cocoa dark chocolate, 1/2T of coconut oil

Totals: 1522 calories, 132g fat, 15 total carbs, 65g protein
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Old 04-19-2013, 06:22 AM   #46
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Also, this morning my fasting blood glucose was 81... and even though I tested about an hour earlier than I did with that really low result the first time, I doubt another hour could have dropped it by that much. Either I was having a bad reaction to my medicine that morning (possible, because this drug is seriously killing me and I need to get off of it!) or my body only intermittently stops metabolizing glucose properly (maybe when my adrenals are especially stressed?), or it was just a faulty test somehow.
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Old 04-20-2013, 12:06 PM   #47
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Other than the weird low bouts of low blood sugar, are there any other concerns?
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Old 04-20-2013, 12:13 PM   #48
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Not diet-related, no All of my concerns are pretty much tied to my thyroid and adrenals being shot at this point, and not being on the right things to regulate it yet. I'm losing fine (for me anyway, between PCOS and hypothyroidism it's lucky I'm losing at all) and the only other thing is my high blood pressure (which is apparently STILL going up ) but that could be tied to my thyroid as well.

I didn't test this morning, but the morning after taking that medicine again it was 81 which was a tiny bit lower but still within normal range. I haven't had that typical shaky hypoglycemic reaction to anything recently though, so that's probably why!
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