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Old 04-12-2013, 09:22 AM   #751
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Can someone help me figure out how much protein I should have? I am coming up with apprx 78g. That is the size of a Roma tomato, could that be correct?

I am 4'11", 134, goal 110-115
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Old 04-12-2013, 09:23 AM   #752
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Weigh-in Apr 12, 2013

Weigh-in this morning ... 195.5 I wonder what those weird ~2 pound bounces are all about?
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Old 04-12-2013, 09:31 AM   #753
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Originally Posted by rotay60 View Post
Can someone help me figure out how much protein I should have? I am coming up with apprx 78g. That is the size of a Roma tomato, could that be correct?

I am 4'11", 134, goal 110-115
Hi rotay Welcome to our thread

(110/2.2)*1.5 = 78g (so you know the formula).
(110/2.2)*2.0 = 100g

Upper end would be *2.0 which is 100g. Start at ~75g and see how it works. If everything else is right but you still aren't losing you can try resetting your range for 50g (which is *1.0) to 75g but this lower range is not optimal if the upper range will work for you. Not just not optimal but unnecessary loss of lean body mass is possible, even likely, if you don't eat enough protein so tweak down carefully.

Your calories should be in the area of 1700 unless you have any health conditions or meds that impact things.

75 grams of protein is about 10oz of meat so it is a lot more than what you are thinking
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Old 04-12-2013, 09:49 AM   #754
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I'm feeling the appetite suppression and more energy!
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Old 04-12-2013, 09:51 AM   #755
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Weigh-in this morning ... 195.5 I wonder what those weird ~2 pound bounces are all about?

Bounces?? Why oh why?
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Old 04-12-2013, 09:55 AM   #756
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Hi rotay Welcome to our thread

Thanks.

Your calories should be in the area of 1700 unless you have any health conditions or meds that impact things.
-really, I was thinking around 1300.


75 grams of protein is about 10oz of meat so it is a lot more than what you are thinking
- this i don't get, because when I was trying to figure out what 75ish grams were on my scale, I got a Roma tomato. I like your figure much better. I can live with that. But, can you explain how you arrive at that?
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Old 04-12-2013, 09:55 AM   #757
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Have been back on strict NK since Monday, but I'm noticing that I'm super hungry! Today I consumed almost 3000 calories!!! Macros were somewhere around 84/13/3.

Is it 'normal' to be so hungry when you 1st start out on NK?
I don't think there is a consensus on it Melisa. Lots of people don't experience it because they are coming from a fairly strict version of LC beforehand.

But even with strict LC if you were over eating protein I think you'd experience hunger when you restrict it to NK levels.

My thinking is not to worry too much about calories sort of like the way Atkins induction is handled. But do stick to the 1.5 to 2.0 grams protein guidelines and total carbs guidelines.

As an aside, I do experience some hunger at various times during the day. I think it is because I am eating enough to keep my thyroid humming along.

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Old 04-12-2013, 10:01 AM   #758
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Is there a way to know if you are losing lean body mass? Is that what you are trying to avoid by eating some protein?
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Old 04-12-2013, 10:04 AM   #759
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- this i don't get, because when I was trying to figure out what 75ish grams were on my scale, I got a Roma tomato. I like your figure much better. I can live with that. But, can you explain how you arrive at that?
Oh, it is because 1 gram of x is not 1 gram of protein. 1oz of meat has about 7g of protein so 10oz of meat would be about 70g of protein. Depending on the meat, some has more protein per ounce or less per ounce.

If you put a hard boiled egg in your food logger it will probably say 6g of protein but when you put it on the scale it will be around 2oz or 60g in weight.

A broiled chicken breast at 28 grams in weight has ~8g of protein with my logger.

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Old 04-12-2013, 10:15 AM   #760
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Thanks for the advice from yesterday everyone... it's definitely a rough situation, but my SO has been saying the same thing that there just isn't a whole lot I can do about it. It's just so hard to watch bad things happen to someone you care about though, especially when it's the only parent you've got left. I tend to be the "mother hen" type anyway as it is, so when anyone I love is in trouble I'm usually the first one to step in and try and take care of them. It's just been so stressful to deal with though, on top of the bad things that have been going on with my SO for a while now (battling depression and an eating disorder), on top of trying to keep up my WOE and not "cheat," on top of being severely hypothyroid on the wrong meds and trying to find someone who'll even TREAT me

Anyway, now at least people know where I disappear to if I don't show up sometimes for a while... I'm still hanging in there (or trying to anyway!) but sometimes I just get so exhausted and stressed out that all I want to do is make sure I get the right foods in for the day, and then burrow under covers and sleep
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Old 04-12-2013, 10:25 AM   #761
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O yes! 149.6. this is the most I've lost at one time....I did not cheat no gum.no nuts no pork rinds...just. Meat and eggs butter,co Steiva ..I will add a few veggi in next week..I'm at my lowest weight now so we will see what happens...I would like to lose 2-3 lbs a week if I get 1 ill be happy. 19 lbs to goal??
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Old 04-12-2013, 10:30 AM   #762
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Weigh-in this morning ... 195.5 I wonder what those weird ~2 pound bounces are all about?

The bounce is a test by the emergency NK broadcast system, it is only a test.
In the event of a real weight loss or gain you will be notified with a super annoying BEEP! BEEP! BEEP!
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Old 04-12-2013, 10:32 AM   #763
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Is there a way to know if you are losing lean body mass? Is that what you are trying to avoid by eating some protein?
Yes. A DEXA scan can tell you precisely show your body composition. It can differentiate between bone mass, muscle mass and fat. Scales that measure body fat are used a lot but they have some drawbacks since they cannot tell the difference between water weight and adipose tissue.

There are also measurements that can give you a picture of LBM and body fat.

The way they measure it in clinical trials, though, is through nitrogen excretion. They can tell, in that tightly controlled environment, that you are losing net lean body mass if you are expelling nitrogen in your urine because it is a flag that LBM tissue is being broken down for component parts.

Right. What Phinney/Voiek are proposing, with NK, is a way to minimize loss of LBM by way of setting a defined range of protein intake. Eat enough to prevent unnecessary loss of LBM but not so much that you trigger the creation of too much glucose.
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Old 04-12-2013, 10:40 AM   #764
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Hum. So there really isn't a way without doing those test to make sure you are eating enough protein. I have been eating at the lower end of my range and liking it but don't want to do any damage.
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Old 04-12-2013, 10:48 AM   #765
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Hum. So there really isn't a way without doing those test to make sure you are eating enough protein. I have been eating at the lower end of my range and liking it but don't want to do any damage.
I think that range already gives you a bit of a buffer though, away from the "danger" zone... doesn't it? That was my understanding anyway. I eat at the bottom of my range too, and I haven't noticed any undesirable effects yet. I'm not sure if you'd NOTICE the loss of LBM necessarily though, but I do think I remember the 1.0-1.5 formula was created to give you a bit of leeway.
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Old 04-12-2013, 10:55 AM   #766
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On the NK diet, I became intolerant (headache, onset within a half hour) of red wine, certain hard cheeses, and some brews of coffee. Google says this is probably about histamine intolerance, but I have no problems with a lot of high histamine foods.
That is very interesting! I've been having headaches lately and it might be related to that. Thanks for the post
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Old 04-12-2013, 11:01 AM   #767
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Speaking of histamine. Everything here is covered in pollen and I am not sick. Been outside with the kiddies a tom too. I am taking generic Claritin but still in the pre NK days I would have been sneezing myself to death or already be sick with a sinus infection.
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Old 04-12-2013, 11:03 AM   #768
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Today is my 5th day on NK. I've been sticking to my protein requirements and I've been keeping total carbs at less than 25, drinking plenty of water and keeping calories at an average of 1900....

SO, I decided to hop on the scale. I haven't lost any weight since starting NK over on Monday. I was expecting a loss since before starting over, I was eating quite a bit of carbage! I guess I will keep chugging along and hope the scale moves in a downward motion real soon.
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Old 04-12-2013, 11:13 AM   #769
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Do you guys have a good sauce recipe that you use on chicken thighs or wings when baking?
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Old 04-12-2013, 11:17 AM   #770
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Hum. So there really isn't a way without doing those test to make sure you are eating enough protein. I have been eating at the lower end of my range and liking it but don't want to do any damage.
Sadly true.

That is why I try to stress starting at the minimum that Phinney/Volek endorse as safe (1.5g/kg) and tweaking protein *only* after everything else has been carefully examined and tweaked.

This is probably the best argument for using blood ketone test strips. You can see very quickly if protein is the problem with low blood ketone levels. That is why Jimmy Moore lowered his protein. I think he is eating around 1.1g/kg but he leaves out some details that would allow exact calculation. How tall is he? What is his ideal weight? I never could find that info on his site(s). My guess is that he is 6'2" or maybe a little taller and his ideal weight is very close to 200 pounds, maybe 190. He said he eats between 80g and 100g of protein. If 200 is his ideal weight then he is eating between .88g and 1.1g per kg.

JM is doing the DEXA scans though so he knows without a doubt that he is not losing undue LBM at those protein levels. *If* my guestimates are right. If his ideal weight is lower the relative g/kg get closer to the 1.5 to 2.0 range but he is still well under the 1.5g/kg minimum.

In a Relentless Roger and the Caveman Doctor podcast he casually said that Phinney told him he favored 1.0 to 1.5 grams per kg. I emailed JM about that but so far I have not gotten a resolution to the discrepancy. Well, really, his response indirectly confirms what he said on that podcast. After the kimkims thing I guess he is gun shy about outright dietary advice and I certainly understand that. I get to enjoy some of that around here and I am far, far less visible than JM.

The thing about losing LBM is that, from what I've read, you are almost certainly going to lose some while dieting[ETA: not dieting. More accurately, 'while eating at a caloric deficit'.]. I don't think it can be avoided only minimized. [ETA: well, really, it can be mitigated with very moderate resistance exercise but few people pursue the right exercise regime with the right level of moderation and exercise of any kind messes with weight loss on the scale which causes a lot of panicked and unwise tweaking.]

And what shores me up on that front is that, if you aren't eating very low calories, you are eating more than most mainstream sources say is minimal. A lot more. Phinney himself indirectly gave a floor of .8g/kg. I don't mention that much because Phinney was not trying to say .8g is adequate - quite the opposite, he said it was inadequate. But someone somewhere said something about 1200 calories being the bare minimum or something to that effect and the result has been that everyone cheer leads 1200 as not just safe but ideal. That is why Matt LaLonde's response to 1200 was so eye opening - he was shocked that people thought it was okay or healthy to eat at that calorie level. He refused to set a 'this much is too low' for that reason - he didn't want everyone to take it to mean that 'this much is okay'. But he didn't hesitate to say 1200 was too low. Shockingly low.

Last edited by reddarin; 04-12-2013 at 11:26 AM..
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Old 04-12-2013, 11:24 AM   #771
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Thanks chery!!i love Kerry gold butter on mine with fresh garlic and ginger...
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Old 04-12-2013, 11:26 AM   #772
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Thanks chery!!i love Kerry gold butter on mine with fresh garlic and ginger...
Thanks, I didn't think about that
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Old 04-12-2013, 11:31 AM   #773
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Weigh in this morning 155.2

I was glad not to see a bounce because I didn't sleep very well last night. So no bounce is a little happy dance.
Hooray!!!
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Old 04-12-2013, 11:46 AM   #774
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Hum. So there really isn't a way without doing those test to make sure you are eating enough protein. I have been eating at the lower end of my range and liking it but don't want to do any damage.
Quote:
Originally Posted by raindroproses View Post
I think that range already gives you a bit of a buffer though, away from the "danger" zone... doesn't it? That was my understanding anyway. I eat at the bottom of my range too, and I haven't noticed any undesirable effects yet. I'm not sure if you'd NOTICE the loss of LBM necessarily though, but I do think I remember the 1.0-1.5 formula was created to give you a bit of leeway.
I am eating at around 1.16 to 1.29 currently. I stall at the 1.5g level. I made a post about that a few(?) weeks ago. When I started NK in August the protein levels were a bit fluid and no one mentioned the Living book's formula (or no one was a proponent of it as I recall), so I'd been eating around 1.18g/kg by happenstance. When I realized it, I pushed my grams up and stalled. But I had a lot of records on what I was doing and a lot of conscientious note taking too.

And that is correct. Phinney, I think, said that there are no overt symptoms of [moderate] protein deficiency.
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Old 04-12-2013, 11:46 AM   #775
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It is taking me forever to get caught up with the thread
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Old 04-12-2013, 11:48 AM   #776
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130-no bounce here either
Hooray!!!
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Old 04-12-2013, 11:49 AM   #777
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I have a confession. I was hungry on NK, but I had gotten afraid of eating. I didn't realize that's what I was doing, but I stopped and had a talk with myself and figured out my problem. I upped my protein(I was on the low side of what I could et) upped my fats again(I had become convinced that I couldn't eat as much fat as others) and GUESS WHAT?? I went from 219.1 to 217.8 after a couple of days of eating a bit more.

Do I still think you can eat too much fat and stall your weight loss?? Absolutely, because I have done it. BUT you do need it to feel good and not be starving. Just thought I would share my own observations. Maybe no one has this problem except me, but maybe this will help others who read this. That is my hope.
Awesome!! And congrats on the loss!!!
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Old 04-12-2013, 12:15 PM   #778
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Still waiting on my strips from Canada

Trying to get to know folks on the thread

Does anyone eat gyro meat? Or you think it's too much filler in them?
They seem to be carby and they use breadcrumbs? I'd stay away from it over the breadcrumbs but I do not eat wheat. Otherwise, if you are careful with your carb totals I don't see why you couldn't fit it into NK.

I try not to eat processed carbs. Like the jalapeno sausage I ate yesterday and today. When I eat something like that I feel a lot better with my menu for the day if I keep total carbs as low as possible.

Once you get your strips you'll be able to test your sensitivity with certainty though.
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Old 04-12-2013, 12:16 PM   #779
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WI this morning for the first time in at least a week.
137.8

And the ketone stick was back to purplish pink this morning.
Hooray!!!
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Old 04-12-2013, 12:17 PM   #780
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And so my fear of sugar was cultivated and, timely enough, “Quitting Sugar” was the fashion. I cut honey, I cut (most) fruits, I avoided all grains and potatoes. I ate fats, grass-fed meats, greens and truckloads of vegetables. I committed serious foodie faux pas in the form of cauliflower “mash”, sugar-free chocolate, stevia-sweetened vegetable smoothies (yeechh!) and trays of Brussels sprouts... for dessert.

And for a few months, I did well. There were a few obvious digestive pitfalls of eating half your calories as broccoli and Brussels sprouts, but I was single at the time. I had good energy, great mental clarity and felt on top of the world (I can now attribute this feeling to running on adrenaline – more on this in the e-book).

As time went by, however, my initial positive experiences faded and the cracks began to show. Always stubborn, I assured myself I was in excellent health (if the Inuits could do it, so could I!)... that is, if I blatantly ignored the fact that I had unrelenting sugar cravings, gnarly nails and skin, was rocking sub-zero body temperatures, urinating every half hour, struggling with binging, had zero sex drive and was lying awake in bed for several hours every night.
Google 'all about goitrogens' first search result.

These things could have come about if she or they had undiagnosed theyroid issues which many women have and could explain some of the physical symptoms (ie hair loss, poor skin and nails, freezing cold all the time etc.) If she/they were really eating that many goitrogenic veggies and possibly eating them raw, they could have possibly downregulated their thyroid glands which as we know can bring healthy problems unbounded. If they thyroid is screwed then the adrenals are screwed which would explain the sleepless nights mentioned if her cortisol was through the roof chronically....

It's not LC that messed her up but probably mis-understanding a thyroid/adrenal axis problem manifesting itself(coming out of hiding). Eating lots of carbs can make people with thyroid/adrenal/ovarian axis imbalance feel momentarily better- sugar, fruits etc. But this is just masking the problem and not adressing the root of the problem.

I know all this because I was in that boat a year ago exactly. I wondered why I was getting so sick on LC, but I researched my symptoms and discovered I fit the OAT AXIS symptoms exactly. I did not blame LC at all. I knew it was an existing I have been self-treating for the last year and have brought my adrenal/thryoid/ovarian functions much closer to normal-still working on it, but I avoid the things that would overload each of these glands and I'm doing much better with LC/NK this time around.

I've lost 11.5 lbs total since Jan with about a month(combined) of that eating a lot of grain free carbs, just because I lost control of myself.

It was my body not LC that was the culprit last year. I had to take care of necessary business with the body first before it could start to respond appropriately to LC/NK.

JMO though.
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