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-   -   Nutritional Ketosis v. Atkins (http://www.lowcarbfriends.com/bbs/nutritional-ketosis-high-fat-low-carb/799601-nutritional-ketosis-v-atkins.html)

avid 03-17-2013 02:29 PM

Nutritional Ketosis v. Atkins
 
I'm confused.
If the plain vanilla Atkins plan puts us in Ketosis during induction, ongoing weight loss, and for most even maintanence, then what is "nutritional ketosis" and how is it different?
thank you.

reddarin 03-17-2013 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by avid (Post 16321099)
I'm confused.
If the plain vanilla Atkins plan puts us in Ketosis during induction, ongoing weight loss, and for most even maintanence, then what is "nutritional ketosis" and how is it different?
thank you.

NK has a protein goal/range that is moderate, no carb ladder, and emphasis on fat being the biggest macro. NK as a state is described as a steady state of blood ketones ranging from .5 to 3.0 mmol/L.

Feelin'Great! 03-17-2013 05:20 PM

I'm with Avid. I'm confused. I'm starting to read thru all the info here... but, what is the advantage, if any?

Just Beachy 03-17-2013 05:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by avid (Post 16321099)
I'm confused.
If the plain vanilla Atkins plan puts us in Ketosis during induction, ongoing weight loss, and for most even maintanence, then what is "nutritional ketosis" and how is it different?
thank you.

Okay, let me preface this by saying that I am no expert in either way of eating, but I will take a stab at it.


Those who follow a Nutritional Ketosis woe train their bodies to burn fat as their primary source of energy. They eat very few carbs, just enough protein to support their lean muscle mass, and the rest of their calories are from fat. There is no adding carbs back in (down the road) to see how you tolerate them. Your macros are all based on formulas that you have to figure out. Also, blood ketones are what is measured to determine if the body is really in ketosis. NKers don't rely on keto sticks or bad breath or any of the other signs many others use. Many people here have posted their surprise when they finally tested and found they weren't actually in ketosis. They were so sure they were. Also, there are no cheats on NK. The slightest cheat will throw you out of ketosis (as measured by blood ketones), and it can take weeks to get back into it.

Now, all that said.... I'm sure people here have their cheat moments and not everyone tests their ketone levels daily. I know I don't track all my food. I also don't test, so I can't really call what I do NK. It is more LCHFMP. I basically eat what I think is going to probably put me in NK, but I don't test to make sure I am. For me, I'm losing weight at a good pace and I'm feeling great, so I really am not taking the time to figure my macros, track, etc.

Of course, there is more to it than that, but that is just the bare basics. "The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Living"is a book often referenced here.

:) Beachy

reddarin 03-17-2013 05:33 PM

A couple of corrections if I may...

NK is not really macro oriented. It is actual grams - protein & carbs - with fat grams making up the balance. That is, when you refer to macros it is normally a reference to macro ratios and NK is not macro ratio oriented.

A cheat on NK, say one carby meal like a pizza or something, will probably take 3 to 5 days to recover from. Going completely off plan with a day or more of high carb eating will require restarting from square one for keto-adaptation which is efficient use of fat for fuel.

reddarin 03-17-2013 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Feelin'Great! (Post 16321328)
I'm with Avid. I'm confused. I'm starting to read thru all the info here... but, what is the advantage, if any?

One advantage is that protein grams are defined. Protein can cause an insulin reaction so eating moderate protein helps minimize the chance of that and that in turn helps with weight loss if that is your goal. Having a defined protein goal also helps prevent unnecessary loss of lean body mass.

No carb ladder means no built in mechanism to fail later. I like Atkins and I admire his contributions that has made LC as mainstream as it is now but the carb ladder is just a huge vector of failure.

A clear focus on eating adequate sat and mono fats is also a superior model. It is emphasized in NK more than Atkins.

avid 03-17-2013 05:42 PM

Ok, I see the difference.
To me it is not that different but I understand when people are dedicated to a woe that even minor differences mean alot.
but now to the big question, and I thank feelin great for asking it.
What is the advantage of NK?

Punkin 03-18-2013 04:19 AM

I will just add a few things to help. There seems to be a lot of research indicating that obesity and the tendency to store fat might be genetic. You can actually train your body to become better at storing fat by engaging in exercise. I am leaving out the storage of glycogen and water only because what humans are more concerned with is the storage of fat.

People with a higher affinity for storing fat, ie those that have a tendency towards becoming fat have a harder time with carbs because it seems like insulin is the hormone which is mainly responsible (but not completely). People who have a high affinity for fat storage, are particularly sensitive to carbs, because of the amount of insulin secretion and the response of their fat tissues to this insulin secretion. By training the body to burn fat instead of glucose, in theory, this should reduce the amount of carbs the body needs and as a result will reduce the amount of insulin that the body is exposed too. This is basically what NK does. From what I understand people mostly use this for losing weight or for endurance sports that seem to promote the storage of body fat over time. For maintenance you increase the carbs a bit and the fat until you find the energy balance and your weight stabilizes.

Atkins is a bit different in that it doesn't matter what the person's affinity for storing body fat is. Everyone enters ketosis (induction) and gets their body to enter the fat burning mode. Then you up the carbs a bit to still allow your body to mainly burn fat and you keep burning off your body fat until you reach your goal weight. Then you add back the carbs slowly until you find the energy balance and your body stabilizes. The carb ladder tests your body's affinity for storing fat, in that for some people maintenance might only be at 30g a week where as for others it could be 100g a week. Atkins is more flexible in that it will tend to work for everyone regardless of their genetics and their metabolic characteristics.

Does that help at all?

Myles 03-18-2013 04:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by reddarin (Post 16321374)
One advantage is that protein grams are defined. Protein can cause an insulin reaction so eating moderate protein helps minimize the chance of that and that in turn helps with weight loss if that is your goal. Having a defined protein goal also helps prevent unnecessary loss of lean body mass.

No carb ladder means no built in mechanism to fail later. I like Atkins and I admire his contributions that has made LC as mainstream as it is now but the carb ladder is just a huge vector of failure.

A clear focus on eating adequate sat and mono fats is also a superior model. It is emphasized in NK more than Atkins.

It seemed to work for everyone (myself included) in that first golden opportunity, but after that i guess our bodies fought it harder (or something) and it became more and more difficult - JM is a good example as he (evidently) did LC for many years with no success until finally he started his NK experiments to finally start achieving results again. Essentially just lowering Protein and increasing Fat

To me, DANDR seems to be "just eat whatever of this and this and limit this"

and NK is kind of more..calculated. I'm sure y'all know what i mean even tho my post isn't very polished :p

May60 03-18-2013 06:54 AM

Thanks! I have been totally confused too!
This has helped!

ravenrose 03-18-2013 09:51 AM

most people do fine with Atkins. those with particularly difficult metabolisms need to be more precise about what they eat. NK was a godsend to me, because getting the ketone monitor and all, doing strict NK for about two months, finally made me realize I don't go into ketosis AT ALL and there is no earthly reason for me to pay such strict attention to carbs... I then have worked carefully with blood tests and changing my insulin doses and food, trying to suss out exactly what works for me. it's interesting and disheartening! LOL

avid 03-18-2013 11:22 AM

I hate to rely too much on technology. It takes the "how do I feel"
component out the equation.
The simple truth for me is that on Atkins I lose weight and feel great.
And for me that's all there is to it.

Feelin'Great! 03-18-2013 05:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by avid (Post 16322706)
I hate to rely too much on technology. It takes the "how do I feel"
component out the equation.
The simple truth for me is that on Atkins I lose weight and feel great.
And for me that's all there is to it.

Awesome! You're absolutely right! That IS all there is to it!

unna 03-19-2013 02:02 AM

ravenrose: that is so interesting. I would like to know some more details.....

jillybean720 03-19-2013 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by avid (Post 16322706)
I hate to rely too much on technology. It takes the "how do I feel"
component out the equation.
The simple truth for me is that on Atkins I lose weight and feel great.
And for me that's all there is to it.

And that's perfectly fine! Some of us, though, don't reach our goal weights following just Atkins, so we need to try something else, and NK is, for many of us, that something else :)

Ntombi 03-19-2013 06:41 PM

I'm doing Atkins (2002, not the later stuff), because it works for me (even now, after several prior rounds), but I'll be staying in ketosis forever (minus some rare indulgences maybe a few times a year once I'm at goal), so, even though I say I'm doing Atkins because I follow induction, and I'll be adding a few foods later and moving into maintenance when I'm ready, I'll still be in ketosis. I very much appreciate the work that Dr. Phinney and others have done, moving the research into the health of long-term ketogenic diets forward.

I think partly people didn't pay attention when Dr. Atkins told them to not to go crazy with the protein. Maybe because thinking of eating high fat was even scarier? Even my first time doing Atkins, I knew that too much protein raised insulin levels, because Dr. Atkins said so in something I read. So I never went crazy with the protein. I think his message has been diluted, especially since his death. I'm sorry for that.

Anyway, my point is that I appreciate both approaches, and IMO, they aren't mutually exclusive.

cfine 03-21-2013 06:44 AM

@Avid, you asked the question of advantage of NK over Atkins. I don't really know if their IS an advantage except for people like me. I am extremely metabolic resistant and I stopped losing on Atkins. Doing NK has been more about tweaking my diet and paying a bit more attention to my protein levels. Also, once I've worked so hard to get into NK, I find it much harder to justify to myself having a bite of something off plan.

synger 03-21-2013 06:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cfine (Post 16327922)
Also, once I've worked so hard to get into NK, I find it much harder to justify to myself having a bite of something off plan.

This.

I don't measure ketones, so I can't say for absolute sure that I'm in ketosis. But I'm regularly below 40 grams carb/day and 70-80 grams protein, and I'm in what I call the "sweet spot" where I'm not ravenously hungry even on 1200 calories, and I don't crave bread and sweets.

I don't want to lose that sweet spot. I know from experience that if I carb up one day, I will have cravings and hunger for the next few days to a week.

It's just easier not to go there.

avid 03-21-2013 07:34 AM

I truly appreciate how varied the metablism is for different people.
I am grateful that I am losing weight without being hungry. My carb threshold
is low, but not so low that I can't enjoy some nuts and berries and still lose weight.
My goal isn't necessarily to stay in Ketosis, but rather to be thin and healthy.
Problem is when I'm out of ketosis, I get hungrier.
Hence staying below my carb threshold, which I would not have discovered had I not
gradually added in selective carbs.
I understand why people would want to stay in Ketosis as a goal unto itself.
There really doesn't seem to be a downside to it.

MerryKate 03-25-2013 11:59 AM

I could add one benefit that I don't think has come up on this discussion: while you are in ketosis, your body is tapped into a ready supply of energy from your fat stores. As a result, you can exercise far longer and harder than you could when eating carbs. I'm sure you've had the experience of hitting the wall when exercising for a long time. That's what happens when you're relying on glucose for fuel and you run out. When you're in ketosis, that doesn't happen.

Even if you're not seriously into training, you have the benefit of being free from energy drops. I go hill walking for relaxation and have been amazed at my ability to walk up steep hills without getting out of breath. And I can get absorbed in a project and miss a meal without thinking about it - not only is there no hunger, but I have the fuel to keep going.

avid 03-25-2013 03:25 PM

Interesting.
I actually do have better endurance.
I no longer get those hypo-gylcemic shakey, feeling faint sensations when hungry.
Now when I'm hungry.....I'm just hungry.
I just wish being in ketosis wasn't so stinky....LOL
I mean if it's doing so much good why does it smell so bad?

mcteez 03-26-2013 04:49 AM

Hi avid

Are you talking about bad breath? If so, there is a good way to eliminate this: drink more water so the ketones are diluted and pass out through your urine and eat more fat. You asked for advantages of a higher fat to protein diet and getting rid of bad breath is one of them.

Hope that helps x

clackley 03-26-2013 06:06 AM

I read through the responses but almost certainly must have missed the point that makes n.k. different for me. Forgive me for any duplication...

The main difference for me is the moderation of protein. Although I believe I have been in ketosis since beginning Atkins (2009), I do think it is possible that I was over eating protein at times and getting perilously close to the edge. Being conscious of protein amounts is a way of preventing 'diet drift'.

Another thing that seems accepted and advised more seriously here is the sodium consumption issue. Dr. Phinney and Volec explain very nicely in their book (Living) for the need and amount of sodium and the mechanics that make that so.

avid 03-26-2013 08:07 AM

Hi Mcteez....yes bad breath but not just bad breath.
My body odor has gotten stronger too.
I have tried drinking alot of water and it actually helps but nothing eliminates the problem. As for fat intake, I eat alot of fat so that's not an issue.
I was actually making a joke but now that it's come up again, maybe i wasn't entirely kidding...I mean, why would something that is good for us cause us to smell bad?
I'm speaking from a natural selection point of view.
Most successful evolutionary changes are those that encourage successful breeding...this is how the characteristics take root in the species. Bad breath and strong B.O are certainly not characteristics that will attract mates. Hence the question "if NT is good for us why does it smell so bad?............LOL, I actually think like this....:stars:

reddarin 03-26-2013 08:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by avid (Post 16336993)
Hi Mcteez....yes bad breath but not just bad breath.
My body odor has gotten stronger too.
I have tried drinking alot of water and it actually helps but nothing eliminates the problem. As for fat intake, I eat alot of fat so that's not an issue.
I was actually making a joke but now that it's come up again, maybe i wasn't entirely kidding...I mean, why would something that is good for us cause us to smell bad?
I'm speaking from a natural selection point of view.
Most successful evolutionary changes are those that encourage successful breeding...this is how the characteristics take root in the species. Bad breath and strong B.O are certainly not characteristics that will attract mates. Hence the question "if NT is good for us why does it smell so bad?............LOL, I actually think like this....:stars:

You are afflicted with presentism my friend. What is attractive to us today in the US is not what was attractive or, perhaps, a neutral issue way back when. If everyone stinks then being stinky is normal not something shunned or even noticed.

Heck, you don't have to go back that far either. My Dad used to laugh about a deodorant commercial from the 50's (I think) where the actors would proudly proclaim that they hadn't had a shower all week. Was it Tussy deodorant?

I was looking up Taft because of that thread in the Lobby and I saw a pic of Taft and Wilson. Man oh man Wilson had some horrible dental issues lol but I doubt that most people would have thought much about it back then.

http://www.doctorzebra.com/imprez/27march1913.jpg

Clueless 03-26-2013 09:40 AM

Just to add, I do not have bad breath on NK at all.

clackley 03-26-2013 09:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clueless (Post 16337238)
Just to add, I do not have bad breath on NK at all.

Same.

synger 03-26-2013 10:28 AM

I can tell from the way I smell when I wake up. My nightgown smells acrid from the sweat when I sleep. I have to change nightgowns and sheets more often. I don't smell it on my regular clothing, but I definitely smell it on my night-time clothing and sheets.

Ntombi 03-26-2013 12:03 PM

No bad breath here. Mildly stinkier sweat, and stinkier urine, but nothing horrendous. It's different for every body.

I sweat in my sleep, so I always smell more like whatever I smell of when I wake up.

reddarin 03-26-2013 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by clackley (Post 16336710)
I read through the responses but almost certainly must have missed the point that makes n.k. different for me.

I think a lot of people doing an Atkinsesque type woe are eating very close or dead on the NK woe.


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