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Old 03-26-2013, 12:26 PM   #31
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OMG Red, that picture is frightening.
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Old 03-26-2013, 12:35 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by reddarin View Post
I think a lot of people doing an Atkinsesque type woe are eating very close or dead on the NK woe.
I am not doubting this^ is true for many but I wonder why you would identify Atkins as a different woe then n.k. then?
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Old 03-26-2013, 01:23 PM   #33
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I am not doubting this^ is true for many but I wonder why you would identify Atkins as a different woe then n.k. then?
Well, the question was how is Atkins different from NK which I outlined in the first few posts. What you are asking is 'how is NK different from my approach to Atkins' and the answer depends on your approach to Atkins.

For example, Atkins does not promote months of induction level eating. Atkins promotes the concept of a critical carb level. Atkins does not really limit protein, certainly there is no guideline on protein grams that I know of. Etc. etc.

Tweaking those Atkins parameters can produce an NK woe. That's not surprising since Atkins is a superset of NK.
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Old 03-26-2013, 01:24 PM   #34
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OMG Red, that picture is frightening.
lol right?!? How would you like to be Mrs. Wilson heh.
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Old 03-26-2013, 02:54 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by reddarin View Post
Well, the question was how is Atkins different from NK which I outlined in the first few posts. What you are asking is 'how is NK different from my approach to Atkins' and the answer depends on your approach to Atkins.

For example, Atkins does not promote months of induction level eating. Atkins promotes the concept of a critical carb level. Atkins does not really limit protein, certainly there is no guideline on protein grams that I know of. Etc. etc.

Tweaking those Atkins parameters can produce an NK woe. That's not surprising since Atkins is a superset of NK.
I do think that is pretty much the difference that I stated in my previous post.
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Old 03-26-2013, 02:58 PM   #36
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Old 03-26-2013, 04:34 PM   #37
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I do think that is pretty much the difference that I stated in my previous post.
I'm not clear on what you are saying Cathy.

Atkins <> NK because:

1. NK has defined protein limits and a protein range. Atkins does not.
2. NK has a hard ceiling of 50g total carbs. Atkins does not.
3. NK counts total carbs. Atkins does not.
4. NK emphasizes a high fat macro. Atkins does not.
5. NK introduces the concept of testing blood ketones. Atkins does not.

If someone asked you to describe Atkins would you give them the formula for determining their protein goal, tell them to count total carbs, eat less than 50g total carbs and eat plenty of fat?

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Old 03-26-2013, 04:45 PM   #38
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I read through the responses but almost certainly must have missed the point that makes n.k. different for me. Forgive me for any duplication...

The main difference for me is the moderation of protein. Although I believe I have been in ketosis since beginning Atkins (2009), I do think it is possible that I was over eating protein at times and getting perilously close to the edge. Being conscious of protein amounts is a way of preventing 'diet drift'.

Another thing that seems accepted and advised more seriously here is the sodium consumption issue. Dr. Phinney and Volec explain very nicely in their book (Living) for the need and amount of sodium and the mechanics that make that so.
This is what I said the difference is between Atkins and n.k. As it applies to me.
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Old 03-26-2013, 05:15 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reddarin View Post
Well, the question was how is Atkins different from NK which I outlined in the first few posts. What you are asking is 'how is NK different from my approach to Atkins' and the answer depends on your approach to Atkins.

For example, Atkins does not promote months of induction level eating. Atkins promotes the concept of a critical carb level. Atkins does not really limit protein, certainly there is no guideline on protein grams that I know of. Etc. etc.

Tweaking those Atkins parameters can produce an NK woe. That's not surprising since Atkins is a superset of NK.
He recommended staying at induction levels for months if one has a lot of weight to lose. That's stated over and over in DANDR.

He also made a point of saying not to overeat protein. He did not set a hard and fast ceiling, no, but back when DANDR was the only book I had read about how food affects insulin levels, I came away with a clear understanding that overeating protein could be counterproductive.

Now, I fully admit that focusing on keeping proteins within a certain gram limit is not a focus when one is following Atkins as written, but no where does it say that eating unlimited amounts of protein is a good idea (after the first two weeks, when the goal is to free oneself of carb cravings).
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Old 03-26-2013, 05:27 PM   #40
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He recommended staying at induction levels for months if one has a lot of weight to lose. That's stated over and over in DANDR.
Yes. But that is a qualifier to staying in induction. The plan is to move out of induction after a couple of weeks normally. So, Atkins does not promote induction for months on in normally. Or do you disagree?

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He also made a point of saying not to overeat protein. He did not set a hard and fast ceiling, no, but back when DANDR was the only book I had read about how food affects insulin levels, I came away with a clear understanding that overeating protein could be counterproductive.
Right. But NK does.

Quote:
Now, I fully admit that focusing on keeping proteins within a certain gram limit is not a focus when one is following Atkins as written, but no where does it say that eating unlimited amounts of protein is a good idea (after the first two weeks, when the goal is to free oneself of carb cravings).
Exactly. Atkins <> NK. The original question was how is Atkins different from NK.

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Old 03-26-2013, 05:39 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reddarin View Post
Yes. But that is a qualifier to staying in induction. The plan is to move out of induction after a couple of weeks normally. So, Atkins does not promote induction for months on in normally. Or do you disagree?



Right. But NK does.



Exactly. Atkins <> NK. The original question was how is Atkins different from NK.

I'm not saying you're wrong about the hard and fast limits, I'm pointing out that nowhere past the first two weeks did he advocate unlimited protein. Yes, there is a difference between saying don't overeat protein and NK, which sets a ceiling, and I think it's a very valid point, but I just don't think it's fair to say that he allowed unlimited protein, or didn't make a point of saying that too much protein could be detrimental.

I think both are great plans. I just think there's a bit of misrepresentation of the supposed loose nature of Atkins.
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Old 03-26-2013, 06:14 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by Ntombi View Post
I'm not saying you're wrong about the hard and fast limits, I'm pointing out that nowhere past the first two weeks did he advocate unlimited protein. Yes, there is a difference between saying don't overeat protein and NK, which sets a ceiling, and I think it's a very valid point, but I just don't think it's fair to say that he allowed unlimited protein, or didn't make a point of saying that too much protein could be detrimental.

I think both are great plans. I just think there's a bit of misrepresentation of the supposed loose nature of Atkins.
But Ntombi, I didn't say Atkins advocated unlimited protein at any time, first two weeks or otherwise.

As for the loose nature of Atkins can you please quote anything at all that I've posted that is incorrect?
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Old 03-26-2013, 11:26 PM   #43
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You are not the only poster in this thread.

I'm not going to keep going back and forth. I've said what I had to say. I've pointed out what I think are slight misrepresentations and/or exaggerations, and I'm done.
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Old 03-27-2013, 06:49 AM   #44
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You are not the only poster in this thread.
That is true but you quoted my post to respond to so I responded to your response. You'll notice that I did not do that to your first post.

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I'm not going to keep going back and forth. I've said what I had to say. I've pointed out what I think are slight misrepresentations and/or exaggerations, and I'm done.
Why the acrimony? You rephrased what I said and materially changed what I said to prove your point. I haven't misrepresented anything or exaggerated anything.
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Old 03-27-2013, 12:42 PM   #45
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I'm not trying to be acrimonious. I quoted you because you were the latest to intimate or say outright the two things I had a problem with. No, you didn't say it as baldly as others, but you were the one I saw last. I should have made it clear that I was responding to more than one post when I replied. I sincerely didn't mean to misinterpret what you said, and if I did, I apologize. I reread what you posted, and I can see where you're coming from, because your statement that he didn't limit protein is different from saying he allowed unlimited protein. He didn't limit protein, though he cautioned against its overconsumption.

I have a problem with people, especially people who should know better, misrepresenting what Atkins is or isn't. We get enough of that from the media and people ignorant of the benefits of a ketogenic diet, we shouldn't see it here as well. That is what prompted me to try to clarify Atkins' stance on protein especially, and, to a lesser extant, on an extended induction.
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Old 03-27-2013, 03:00 PM   #46
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I remember when I first became a member here and was "being educated" through participating in the different types of low carb diets. One of the things that struck me about atkins was that it seemed like a protein based diet, with some carbs and some fat. But the fat, because so nutrient dense and high calorie, didn't seem like much at all. The protein however did seem like a lot. I found that a lot of my proteins were a bit too on the lean side to really qualify for NK. Now I am also small and older so I don't have a lot to work with respect to my total number of calories. So in my case I decided to switch some of the protein for some VLC induction veggies to keep the calories down, and make more room for the fat. This seemed to work for me, it helped me still qualify for NK and also be getting enough fat to be able to get my body to start burning fat for energy. I could be way off base, but I think atkins might assume that you're using a lot of storage fat, in the induction and OWL phases for energy. So even though it looks like a lot of protein, if your body is getting a lot of its energy from your stored fat then it would also be just as high fat of a diet as what NK looks like. However in my case, following atkins would probably just mean my body would have started burning protein for energy and shifting into down regulation instead of dipping into my fat stores for energy. I didn't try atkins induction, but guessed that that is what would have happened.

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Old 03-31-2013, 03:11 PM   #47
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I don't think my breath smells bad but no one has complained so far. I dont have a bad taste in my mouth either but my pee always smells like I've eaten asparagus even though I havent. I thought it was my vitamin supplements - (omega 3 fish oil ?) Anyway I test positive for ketones in my urine but have just ordered a blood ketone meter so it'll be interesting to see if I'm actually in ketosis at all
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Old 03-31-2013, 05:40 PM   #48
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If you're testing positive with the sticks, you're in ketosis. You might not be at the level of ketosis that you're aiming for, but you're definitely in ketosis.
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Old 04-08-2013, 06:39 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by reddarin View Post
I think a lot of people doing an Atkinsesque type woe are eating very close or dead on the NK woe.
I absolutely agree.
I think I have a pretty good overview of the differences between the two.
The differences are subtle but real.
Perhaps is a 'perception' thing. For example, I see myself as an
"Atkins woe" but I'm virtually always in ketosis, so I could just as easily
call myself a "NK" style eater.
Which brings us back to your above quoted post.
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Old 04-29-2013, 11:01 AM   #50
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Remember, though - there is a difference between spilling ketones (making the pee stick turn pink/purple) and nutritional ketosis. The former not necessarily indicating that you are fat adapted but rather just kicking out excess dietary fat in the form of ketones. Personally speaking - I can turn the stick a deep purple and not lose weight. It just means I've eaten a lot of dietary fat in the absence of carbohydrate. If I don't keep my other macros in check - protein moderated and carbs minimized congruently, I won't lose an ounce.

Not saying that the pee sticks are bad, I still use them on occasion too. I'm also not saying that you have to go so following a ketogenic diet to lose weight - many lucky souls don't have to. What I am saying is that turning the pee sticks pink doesn't mean you are in nutritional ketosis and doesn't mean you are burning fat for FUEL (fat adapted) - just spilling excess dietary fat (not necessarily body fat) through your urine. Blood ketones are an indicator that you are fat adapted (using body fat for fuel).
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Old 05-03-2013, 07:50 AM   #51
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i went through a period when my pits stank bad, but havent had that for a while, i drink >2 litres water daily. no bad breath, urine can smell quite often, just did a blood ketone test a few minutes ago, 4.4 mmol/L so im defiently in ketosis
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