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-   -   gluconeogenesis (http://www.lowcarbfriends.com/bbs/nutritional-ketosis-high-fat-low-carb/798365-gluconeogenesis.html)

Myles 03-02-2013 02:07 PM

gluconeogenesis
 
hi red lol

how would one know if they were experiencing gluconeogenesis ? What are the signs, how can one make sure they're eating adequate but not too much protein, are there any tests one can do?

NKSL55 03-02-2013 07:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by goolash (Post 16291208)
hi red lol

how would one know if they were experiencing gluconeogenesis ? What are the signs, how can one make sure they're eating adequate but not too much protein, are there any tests one can do?

Well you could check your blood sugar. But that would be far from definitive.

--
Phillip

Punkin 03-03-2013 04:05 AM

Protein causes me to experience hypoglycemia. That's how I know. It usually happens when I have consumed too much protein at one meal. Protein in my case acts like a carb. When I eat too many carbs at one meal I immediately feel uncomfortable from a gastric perspective. It is difficult to describe it but it is like my stomach starts doing flip flops over and over again. And sometimes there is a feeling of hunger, and wanting to eat more. Then shortly afterwards I experience hypoglycemia and at the same time feel hungry. With a high protein meal, especially one that doesn't contain enough fat, I don't feel the immediate gastric discomfort but I will experience hypoglycemia usually sometimes within the next 12 hours. I am pretty sure that is gluconeogenesis. I could be wrong but I can't think of what else it could be.

In my case, my body has to see a large portion of the calories coming from fat. It isn't enough for me to try to make the fat in storage, part of the fat that my body uses for energy which ends up making my diet a high protein, low carb diet. My meals look like high fat/low protein/low carb to an observer. Something like this: VLC veggie 150g (romaine lettuce), 1 oz protein (sometimes), 45g of a fatty no carb dressing (about 3 tbsn).

I am hoping once I am fat adapted I can reduce the amount of fat so that I can burn a bit more storage fat, but right now its tricky because when my body sees protein and carbs coming in, it thinks that those are to be used as fuel still. And the insulin starts rising. Of course there is no way of testing this, but I am pretty sure that the insulin is what causes the hypoglycemia.

Myles 03-03-2013 04:07 AM

what does hypoglycemia feel like? what are the symptoms?

drjlocarb 03-03-2013 06:34 AM

If you are not eating enough carbs, and glycogen stores are depleted, you will have to make glucose via gluconeogenesis to maintain blood glucose levels.

There are some cells in the body which MUST have glucose, while others are just fine using ketones. The body must keep blood glucose levels high enough to support those cells. Normal people need somewhere around 220g glucose a day to maintain. When you are in ketosis, you only need about 120g a day because ketones will be used to fill in.

When we drop our carb intake below those levels, the liver will produce glucose through gluconeogenesis.

Punkin 03-03-2013 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by goolash (Post 16292106)
what does hypoglycemia feel like? what are the symptoms?

For me it feels like ravishing hunger with irritability, sometimes dizziness, sometimes thirst, headaches and fantasies about food. I have a lot of difficulty waiting until the next meal, which used to mean susceptibility to mindless snacking but now I know that it isn't real hunger so I just wait it out. Once I am back into ketosis, I feel better.

drjlocarb 03-03-2013 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NKSL55 (Post 16292771)
They used to think that the brain could only use glucose, then determined they were wrong. Is there some reason to think this is accurate?

These cells have no mitochondria and must use glucose.

NKSL55 03-04-2013 05:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drjlocarb (Post 16293190)
These cells have no mitochondria and must use glucose.

This would just be red blood cells, right? Interesting. No mitochondria, no aerobic metabolism. All that is left is anaerobic metabolism. Fat and ketone bodies can only be metabolized via aerobic metabolism.
Mammals are bizarre.

--
Phillip

Myles 03-05-2013 04:36 AM

I wish figuring this stuff out was less experimentation and more mathematical. Sucks that we're all different ;)

drjlocarb 03-05-2013 06:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NKSL55 (Post 16294111)
This would just be red blood cells, right? Interesting. No mitochondria, no aerobic metabolism. All that is left is anaerobic metabolism. Fat and ketone bodies can only be metabolized via aerobic metabolism.
Mammals are bizarre.

--
Phillip

There are other cells with few or no mitochondria. Off the top of my head, they would include renal medulla, lens and cornea of the eye, certain cells in the bone marrow, and testes. There may be more, but I can't remember all of them.

drjlocarb 03-05-2013 06:30 AM

Myles, back to the main question, I assumed I had a problem because my fasting glucose numbers were approaching 130 on a daily basis. I checked after being stalled for more than a year and reading about NK. My carbs were always under 20g and, when I started tracking, the protein was very high. I also did an experiment where I increased daily carbs for a week. The fasting glucose levels fell to a normal 80-90 and did NOT rise past 110, even after a higher carb meal.

Gluconeogenesis was the most likely culprit. I have been testing both glucose and ketones and as my ketones are rising, my glucose is falling.

Myles 03-06-2013 05:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drjlocarb (Post 16296517)
Myles, back to the main question, I assumed I had a problem because my fasting glucose numbers were approaching 130 on a daily basis. I checked after being stalled for more than a year and reading about NK. My carbs were always under 20g and, when I started tracking, the protein was very high. I also did an experiment where I increased daily carbs for a week. The fasting glucose levels fell to a normal 80-90 and did NOT rise past 110, even after a higher carb meal.

Gluconeogenesis was the most likely culprit. I have been testing both glucose and ketones and as my ketones are rising, my glucose is falling.

What was your protein at, what have you reduced it to, and what is your size (if you dont mind me asking) ?

drjlocarb 03-06-2013 06:33 AM

I was eating 120-150g/ day with 1400-1600 cals at 250 lbs. I have dropped it to 70-90g now, usually around 80g, and 12-1300 cals. Today my weight is 233.

Myles 03-06-2013 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drjlocarb (Post 16298732)
I was eating 120-150g/ day with 1400-1600 cals at 250 lbs. I have dropped it to 70-90g now, usually around 80g, and 12-1300 cals. Today my weight is 233.

are those calories what are recommended for your size by the keto calculator thingies or do you use a different formula? I am still trying to figure out my stuff and hopefully like JM i can get the proper numbers for me and start losing again one day. I know the calculators and books say one thing, but i was reading a post on another forum from a guy who said that his doctor said years of yo-yo dieting had screwed up his metobolism and he actually had to eat far lower than recommended calories for his size to finally see some fat loss.

drjlocarb 03-06-2013 04:15 PM

The keto calculator says 1800 calories to maintain BMR and 2200 to maintain my current weight. The calories I was eating before NK is a sample of what I was eating for the last 2 years and I wasn't losing, I was stalled doing general LC at 10-20 carbs a day and not tracking. I was waiting for things to happen and they never did. I had tried tweeking EVERYTHING in those 2 years and nothing worked for me.

The only thing that changed my weight was increasing calories at the end of 2012...I gained 10 lbs and it took me 3 months to lose that.

Myles 03-07-2013 03:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drjlocarb (Post 16300084)
The keto calculator says 1800 calories to maintain BMR and 2200 to maintain my current weight. The calories I was eating before NK is a sample of what I was eating for the last 2 years and I wasn't losing, I was stalled doing general LC at 10-20 carbs a day and not tracking. I was waiting for things to happen and they never did. I had tried tweeking EVERYTHING in those 2 years and nothing worked for me.

The only thing that changed my weight was increasing calories at the end of 2012...I gained 10 lbs and it took me 3 months to lose that.

wow. Makes me wonder what i need to to do to tweak, when i am finally ready to tweak. Staying the same isn't a sign of success for me imho

drjlocarb 03-07-2013 04:35 AM

Staying the same was the best I could do. I had lost 40 lbs in 2010 and then it stopped. If I hadn't stayed low carb, I know I would have gained it all back, again. I was able to maintain 234-238, until last fall when I started messing with NK and dropped protein and upped calories. I gained back to 248. I dropped calories back down and was able to get back to my stall range, but no more losses after that.

Jan this year I started tracking blood ketone levels and I was able to see that I was not in NK. I kept ptn down, fat up and calories had to come down before I saw any scale change.

Now, after 8 weeks, the scale is moving again. I am 232 today.

Myles 03-07-2013 07:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drjlocarb (Post 16300824)
Staying the same was the best I could do. I had lost 40 lbs in 2010 and then it stopped. If I hadn't stayed low carb, I know I would have gained it all back, again. I was able to maintain 234-238, until last fall when I started messing with NK and dropped protein and upped calories. I gained back to 248. I dropped calories back down and was able to get back to my stall range, but no more losses after that.

Jan this year I started tracking blood ketone levels and I was able to see that I was not in NK. I kept ptn down, fat up and calories had to come down before I saw any scale change.

Now, after 8 weeks, the scale is moving again. I am 232 today.

Congratulations, thats awesome! :) - Although we're all "different" these seems quite logical for me too, and i believe i'm going to try this. First however i'm going to experiment with some things like removing certain dairy, then possibly all dairy, and some other experiments.

Reading your posts give me hope :)

Liz1959 03-07-2013 08:49 PM

Is it considered to be a good idea to give up, or at least limit pork rinds?
Sadly I'm thinking it is since 1 ounce is 17.4g of protein, and it isn't quality protein.

reddarin 03-08-2013 06:24 AM

Google 'marks daily apple how-much-glucose-does-your-brain-really-need'

It doesn't address your question directly Myles but it is a very interesting read about glucose.

Myles 03-08-2013 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by reddarin (Post 16303322)
Google 'marks daily apple how-much-glucose-does-your-brain-really-need'

It doesn't address your question directly Myles but it is a very interesting read about glucose.

Just read it!

reddarin 03-08-2013 03:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Liz1959 (Post 16302879)
Is it considered to be a good idea to give up, or at least limit pork rinds?
Sadly I'm thinking it is since 1 ounce is 17.4g of protein, and it isn't quality protein.

Volek 'counted' the protein when he wrote about pork rinds as a healthy snack in a Men's Health blurb.

They are high fat and high protein so that sort of self-limits them if you are moderating your protein and calories. I've eaten them as part of my protein for the day but a day of pork rinds only protein doesn't appeal to me.

Liz1959 03-08-2013 09:04 PM

Yes Red. I am just seeing them throwing my protein numbers over the top. I had just been considering them as fat... but I see how that could be a problem with the protein numbers.
I think they just have to be fillers for extra calories that don't mess up the other numbers. I need to give some thought to enjoying them while consolidating them with other foods.
I think breading for fried fish, scoops for cheese dips, maybe crushed and sprinkled on kale chips, etc, will work, just not as eating like chips.

Myles 03-09-2013 04:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Liz1959 (Post 16304979)
Yes Red. I am just seeing them throwing my protein numbers over the top. I had just been considering them as fat... but I see how that could be a problem with the protein numbers.
I think they just have to be fillers for extra calories that don't mess up the other numbers. I need to give some thought to enjoying them while consolidating them with other foods.
I think breading for fried fish, scoops for cheese dips, maybe crushed and sprinkled on kale chips, etc, will work, just not as eating like chips.

microwave them with melted cheese then dip in sour cream :)

drjlocarb 03-09-2013 05:26 AM

I don't eat pork rinds anymore. If I am keeping my protein at a minimum, I don't want to mess with an incomplete type. My main concern with lower protein was losing muscle mass and eating an incomplete source seemed counter productive. If I really wanted them, I would use them as a "fill in". What I mean by that is, I am eating between 80-90g/day and if I am at 75g for the day and also low on fat, I would consider using pork rind to reach no more than my 90g target to get the fat in.

Liz1959 03-09-2013 09:40 AM

Thanks, I think that's what I need to do. I'm trying to keep my protein at 20 grams per meal plus snacks, depending on my level of activity. The A&S chart says my minimum is 72, so I'm still experimenting with that. Hopefully the book will be here soon.
Quote:

Originally Posted by drjlocarb (Post 16305200)
I don't eat pork rinds anymore. If I am keeping my protein at a minimum, I don't want to mess with an incomplete type. My main concern with lower protein was losing muscle mass and eating an incomplete source seemed counter productive. If I really wanted them, I would use them as a "fill in". What I mean by that is, I am eating between 80-90g/day and if I am at 75g for the day and also low on fat, I would consider using pork rind to reach no more than my 90g target to get the fat in.


Punkin 03-09-2013 11:46 AM

In the Gary Taubes book, he discusses the research done on overweight rats. Apparently when they are starved they burn muscle mass before giving up fat mass. So they lose muscle mass instead of fat mass when their calories are restricted. When he extends the theory to humans he suggests that becoming fat adapted (ie. LC, HF) to prevent this from occurring in a semi starvation diet. My take on it is that as long as the primary fuel is fat it should spare muscle, and also it should be calorie restricted in a way that does not encourage downregulation. Ie. reducing BMR to conserve energy due to calorie restriction. Eating enough calories but not too low.

drjlocarb 03-16-2013 04:38 AM

How are things going Myles?

I see you changed your user name.

Myles 03-17-2013 11:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drjlocarb (Post 16318862)
How are things going Myles?

I see you changed your user name.

hey DRj,

i hadn't tracked diligently the last week because of a trade show i was working for a few days, where i stayed on track 95% but the protein was higher because of limited choices.

I stopped dairy that week to see if that would do anything, but i felt no different and it didn't change my weight, so my next step is to do the reduced protein we talked about. Im back home now and am going to go back to tracking tomorrow. I have some food i need to finish first, and some groceries i need to buy - and i have re-introduced dairy as of yesterday.

I'm actually currently googling higher fat lower protein recipes, and reading my fat fast cookbook for inspiration. Any ideas are welcome :)

I am home for 2 weeks - and part of this is the jewish holiday of passover where its going to be very difficult to eat low protein because of the limited choices - but both nights are at my moms house, so i can maybe sneak to the fridge when no one is looking. Then i am on the road for 1 week on a sales trip, then i am home for a week, then i am on business for 2 weeks in indonesia and china. So..i'm scared :)

drjlocarb 03-17-2013 02:25 PM

http://www.lowcarbfriends.com/bbs/re...n-recipes.html


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