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Old 03-01-2013, 07:32 AM   #1
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High Fat NK 80/15/5 - March Version

Welcome to the March High Fat 80/15/5 NK thread!

Our goal is a healthy LC high fat macro and mandatory daily protein regimen resulting in a state of Nutritional Ketosis. Ideal ratios for fat range from about 65% to 85% of calories. Protein is kept moderate. Total carbs are 50g or less. The short version is: Eat your required protein grams, keep total carbs low and the rest of your calories are fat. This is not a very low calorie thread.

Protein
We use Dr. Phinney's recommendation of 1.5g to 2.0g per kg of reference weight. Reference weight is the appropriate weight for your height. It is important to use the correct weight for the formula because overeating protein can interfere with weight loss. So use the right weight even if you have a higher intermediate goal weight.

The formula looks like this: (goal_weight/2.2)*1.5 = daily protein grams.

For example: Your goal weight is 150

(150/2.2)*1.5 = 102g protein a day.
Fat
Most of your calories should come from fat.
Carbs
50g total carbs (not net) or less. Start low on carbs.
Calories
According to Dr. Phinney, an obese person burns about 30kCal per kg of weight and a moderately active adult close to their correct weight burns 35kCal per kg of weight. He attributes the difference, 30 to 35, to an obese person being more sedentary than a person at the right weight for their body.

From page 207 of The Art and Science of Low Carb Living:

"As an aside, the casual reader might protest that these energy expenditure numbers look pretty high. But for anyone that has worked with obese humans in a metabolic research ward, 30kcal per kg of actual body weight in the sedentary obese and 35 kcal/kg in the post-obese moderately active adult are actually quite conservative expenditure values."

For example: You are fat, your goal weight is 150 and right now you weigh 225.

225 current calorie expenditure --> (225/2.2)*30 = 3068
150 goal weight calorie expenditure --> (150/2.2)*35 = 2386
Calories II
How much should you eat? I don't know but it is probably not as little as you think. Use the formula to guestimate your current calorie expenditure and then start with 500 less calories. In the example above, that'd be a start point of about 2500 a day.

There are many health risks related to eating very low calories, like loss of lean body mass, and it is hard to stick to a plan with very low calories. Start high and work down as needed but go down slowly. Panic is the enemy of success.
Macros
Macro ratios are a great tool to help you keep an eye on what you are doing but they can be very deceptive. 15% protein at 1500 calories is very different from 15% at 3000 calories. You can have great looking macros that are hiding terrible real numbers. Don't get stuck on macro percentages. Always check your protein grams to make sure you are eating to your goal.
Daily/Weekly Weigh-Ins
Do you weigh in daily or weekly? Totally up to you! I weigh in daily because I like the constant feedback. *BUT*, if you choose to do daily weigh-ins you have to accept that daily weights are a snapshot in time only. They are interesting data points but that is all and they are meaningless without the context of time. In other words, weigh-in daily if you want but pay attention to the trend not the individual snapshot of weight.
Tape Measure
You should measure yourself periodically. It can really make a difference when the scale refuses to budge by showing that you are losing inches despite what the scale says. If there is no weight loss on the scale for a week but you measure and can see that you've lost an inch here or there it will stop you from wildly tweaking what you are doing when what you are doing really is actually working.
Sodium
Consider your own health condition and any Rx meds but... low carb is not a low sodium way of eating or living. You *must* get your sodium in or your body will suffer. It might suffer silently for a long time before it finally breaks. Or it might express itself as agonizing leg cramps. Those cramps are caused by dehydration and/or a potassium deficiency but if you are a low sodium consumer then your sodium deficiency is contributing to your potassium loss and dehydration. The body throws potassium overboard if it has to choose between potassium and sodium. That is how important sodium is to your body. Phinney advises 5 Grams of sodium daily! That is a lot of sodium. Fear not! Unless you are going out of your way to eat low sodium you are probably getting 2 to 4 grams in your food every day. A little extra use of the salt shaker will fix up most people just fine. It is worth taking a look at how much sodium you are getting if you use a food logger. Table salt is not one for one on sodium grams. Google for the conversion 'how much sodium in table salt'. If you've been a casual low sodium person then you should pay careful attention to what you are eating and dun your former salt eschewing ways.

The body will cannabalize LBM for potassium if it has to. So, low sodium -> sacrifice potassium -> rob lean tissue for potassium -> poor LC results.
Links of Interest
February's 80/15/5 thread.

A sodium thread I created.

Long Term Stalls podcast with Jimmy Moore and Dr. Phinney. I made a list of the things covered in the podcast with the time it is located at within the recording. It isn't all inclusive but it is thorough.
Notes
Join in the conversation any time. Feel free to ask any questions you have. We are all happy to help you. Lurkers are welcome too.
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Old 03-01-2013, 07:33 AM   #2
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Supplements

Supplements
If you aren't supplementing start now. Here are a few tips on it to get you started.

Magnesium is a wonder mineral that has far ranging benefits. For LC'rs, on top of all of the other wonderful things it does, it also helps with regularity. It is a must. Go easy! Don't go full dose all at once. Ramp up to whatever dose you set for yourself. Start at 1/4 to 1/2 the RDA and slowly go up over a week or two's time. If you react to your dose don't panic. It will pass. Lower the dose and take a little more time. I currently take 2xRDA.

Google 'LLVLC-ep-602-morley-robbins' for an excellent free podcast about this very important mineral.

Potassium. Dr. Eades of Protein Power advises 4 of the 99mg pills while on induction and then 2 of the 99mg pills, I believe, afterwards. If you are experiencing cramps don't overlook pure water intake. Dehydration causes awful cramps.

Take a multi-vitamin.

There are others that you probably should be taking daily too. Google 'atlcx-26-dr-jonny-bowden' for a free podcast that is excellent about supplements in general for LC. Jimmy Moore asks the fantastic question 'what are your trapped on a desert island choices'.
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Old 03-01-2013, 07:33 AM   #3
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Weight Fluctuations

Weight Fluctuations

To paraphrase Dr. Phinney....

Everyone has a 'window' of water weight. The body is fairly lax about how much fluid it retains at any given time and this is generally about 4 pounds worth.

Think of it as one of those horizontal lava doodads with the blue fluid doing a seesaw motion.

So.

You are kicking butt and shedding weight. You weigh in at the low point on the seesaw with your fluid balance tilted low.

A day or a week goes by and you weigh in again. You *have* lost 2 pounds. *But* the seesaw of fluid is now tilted up at its high end completely masking your 2 pounds and possibly even showing a gain.

The next day you weigh in again, having lost another .5 pound off your body for real but the blue fluid has tilted to its low end this time and WHOOSH you see a 5 pound drop!

That is why daily weigh ins are interesting but if you happen to be blessed with a wildly tilting blue doodad you are gonna have baffling daily, even weekly, weigh ins. Depending on how fine tuned your way of eating is and how fast or slow you lose weight, Phinney even pushed it out to a full month of this phenomenon masking a net loss - 1 pound a week lost for 4 pounds total for the month but your lava machine is tilted to the high point and you see a disappointing scale reading. No weight lost on the scale or even a few ounces gained.
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Old 03-01-2013, 07:50 AM   #4
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You always do a great job??
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Old 03-01-2013, 07:56 AM   #5
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Hi Becky
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Old 03-01-2013, 08:11 AM   #6
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Yay! March is gonna be great.

Starting day 1 at 198.9
Expecting to go up a little before weight starts dropping as I just came off a fat fast.
Was so good to have jalapeño bacon this morning!
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Old 03-01-2013, 08:15 AM   #7
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Here's an interesting study about to be conducted.

"…cancer cells thrive on glucose and starve on fats and ketones, which are food-derived energy units that are plentiful in low-carbohydrate diets."
- See more at: University Study on Low Carb Diet for Cancer Treatment
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Old 03-01-2013, 08:40 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dasschus View Post
Yay! March is gonna be great.

Starting day 1 at 198.9
Expecting to go up a little before weight starts dropping as I just came off a fat fast.
Was so good to have jalapeño bacon this morning!
awesome! on the loss! I have a few friends who are starting a FF on monday....they want me too, but i don't think i need it really. I'd rather wait for a stall. i AM making jalapeno/cc/bacon this weekend!

Darin, thanks for starting this again for us!! I am on my 3rd cup of coffee w co. I left the hwc out of this one...not so bad, i like the color change caused by hwc though.
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Old 03-01-2013, 08:50 AM   #9
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BMR Question

I just used a BMR calculator and came up with sedentary = 1550 and lightly active = 1777 for my 5'5" height, 126lb, 46yr body. I've heard people say that you have to eat at or above your BMR in order to lose but the website said to eat below.

Does anybody know?
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Old 03-01-2013, 08:50 AM   #10
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Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by goolash 
Alright, now im more mad.

Monday - 324.2
Wed - 325.4
Fri - 327.3???? WTH

How am i GAINING weight. Red, im freaking out bro, help please. I get that it can be a slow process but over 2 weeks legit tracking now (except yesterday) and the numbers have gone up! I haven't worked out since Monday. 

Maybe my metobolism is so screwed up from years of yo'yo'ing that it doesnt know im a guy this size and eating this many calories is messing me up,

or maybe its the back pain - which btw is still bad but less than yesterday, and taking the anti-inflam and muscle relaxers i bought are helping the pain. If it was kidneys apparently they wouldn't help.

Or maybe someone is sneaking into my bedroom at night and injecting my veins with white bread. This is how i feel: #$(!(!#$()!#$

Edit: i didnt eat breakfast today - just coffee w/ hwc - i have no appetite, in part from feeling sorry for myself, i'll take something to work maybe

Sorry All as usual for being a whiney b. But you all know how frustrating this is, and i feel like im the only one here not losing.
*slap* snap out of it! heh

Kelly is exactly right. Inflammation screws with weight. Meds can also affect weight loss.
hahaha, im ok with the slap!

Quote:
Look at what you yourself said:
Quote:
thu feb 21st - 2320 63/32/5 - 178 pro/43 car (16 carbs in brocolli and cauliflower? 5 in raw mushrooms? b.s.) - weight - 324.3
fri feb 22nd - didnt track, only have breakfast, but i ate very similar to the next day
sat feb 23rd - 2569 70/24/6 - 155 pro/33 car- weight 324
sun feb 24th - 2674 74/21/5 - 152 pro/39 car - weight 324.2
mon feb 25th - 3324 74/23/3 - 169 pro/32 car - weight 324.2

Haven't lost any weight
You posted that on the 26th. What was your weigh-in the 27th? Assuming that your intense pain was caused by something on the 27th expressing itself the morning of the 28th, it is pretty clear that the pain and inflammation (which may not be visible externally) is the culprit.


Didn't you have the korean food on the 27th? Is that something you eat rarely or often? When is the last time you ate that stuff from that particular restaurant? Maybe you are having a reaction to msg or some other ingredient? Have you explained your symptoms and asked your family if they had any sort of reaction at all?
I didn't weigh myself on the 27th i dont think, Ya korean was 27th, but it was just some spicy soup and kimchi! I looked them up - they were low carb!

Quote:
Except for the acute issue you are having, you are healthy and active so I do not think that Phinney is wrong about you or your actual caloric expenditure. Exit the Total Perspective Vortex dude.

You might also consider that whatever is going on with that pain it is unlikely to be helped by greatly restricting calories. Your body needs energy to fight whatever it is.

How's your pure water intake? Are you keeping it up? How about sodium? Are you keeping an eye on that to make sure you are getting enough?
I know what you mean about Exit the total perspective vortex, but damn bro, doing this and not seeing ANY movement in the right direction...it's heart breaking. Something..anything..would be amazing.

I am still eating, just this morning i couldnt do breakfast thats all.

I'm still keeping my cup full and not being shy on the salt - i was thinking of ordering some salt pills to make it easier than doing the broth thing, any ideas about this?

Last edited by Myles; 03-01-2013 at 08:54 AM..
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Old 03-01-2013, 08:58 AM   #11
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Hey Myles, I get celtic gray sea salt and add a lil spoon full (mine comes with a wooden spoon) to a 30 oz cup of water. I LOVE it! I almost drink it more w than w/o the salt!

omgee! My lunch: pack of the shiritaki fettucinni (well rinsed and nuked...several times!), 1 oz cream cheese, tbls butter, 1/3 ground beef, 1 lg strip pork side, 1 tbs parm and spices. OH MY GOSH! From the fat fast cook book...sorta! WOWZER!

Now, the problem with that meal....as good as it is...err, was...i am only at 16 grams of protein...i need to make up 126 grams roughly! lol...i gots some eatin' to do!!

Last edited by pibble mama; 03-01-2013 at 09:37 AM..
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Old 03-01-2013, 09:00 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by pibble mama View Post
Hey Myles, I get celtic gray sea salt and add a lil spoon full (mine comes with a wooden spoon) to a 30 oz cup of water. I LOVE it! I almost drink it more w than w/o the salt!
Hm i have never seen that, is it like a supplement?
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Old 03-01-2013, 09:04 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bernsy View Post
I just used a BMR calculator and came up with sedentary = 1550 and lightly active = 1777 for my 5'5" height, 126lb, 46yr body. I've heard people say that you have to eat at or above your BMR in order to lose but the website said to eat below.

Does anybody know?
Have you asked the people that said that Bernsy? I don't recall any regulars on our thread using the BMR.
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Old 03-01-2013, 09:18 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goolash View Post

I'm still keeping my cup full and not being shy on the salt - i was thinking of ordering some salt pills to make it easier than doing the broth thing, any ideas about this?
I've been using a product called Endurolytes that are capsules of electrolytes. I usually carry them with me during half marathons but they seem to be working well for this purpose as well. But I supplement with magnesium citrate at night before bed. The Endurolytes won't make you sleepy or cause any stomach upset.

Their web site has dealer location info but I usually find mine at running stores.
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Old 03-01-2013, 09:41 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goolash View Post
Hm i have never seen that, is it like a supplement?
You can usually find it either at a gourmet kitchen store, williams sonoma etc...I THINK netrition might have it? I know the giant A store has it! lol I LOVE it...

Quote:
Originally Posted by reddarin View Post
Have you asked the people that said that Bernsy? I don't recall any regulars on our thread using the BMR.
i looked mine up last week just for a point of reference and it was considerably lower than what the NK calculator said, but hey....i'm happy/losing eating using the NK numbers....so i'm sticking to that!

I have had BMRs ran and they hook you up to all of these O2 tubes etc and run a 35 min or so test....for $100! It was useful to me when I was running a lot and following SB...but not so needed now.
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Old 03-01-2013, 09:54 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goolash View Post
I didn't weigh myself on the 27th i dont think, Ya korean was 27th, but it was just some spicy soup and kimchi! I looked them up - they were low carb!
Right but the carbs aren't the issue. Do you eat what you ate from that restaurant frequently? Have you described the pain to your family that ate that food that night too and asked if they had any symptoms of any sort?

Quote:
I know what you mean about Exit the total perspective vortex, but damn bro, doing this and not seeing ANY movement in the right direction...it's heart breaking. Something..anything..would be amazing.
Myles, I was stalled at 205 for months and months. I understand your frustration. I empathize entirely.

And it is worth pointing out that we were making progress until you had a health issue that threw a monkey wrench into everything. We had established that at an average of 2700 calories you were keeping a steady reading on the scale. The next step was to try to get to a 3000 calorie average so we could try to determine the right caloric deficit to encourage weight loss. Too much of a caloric deficit is not good for healthy weight loss and it is just not healthy in general.

Quote:
I am still eating, just this morning i couldnt do breakfast thats all.
I want to straddle the fence here. We cannot ignore the pain or the meds you are taking to deal with it. So, try to keep your calories up but don't make yourself sick over it. Don't starve yourself but don't throw more at your body to deal with. I'm thinking in terms of changing things in your menu. Try to continue as you have been eating and wait until the event has resolved itself before making changes.

Quote:
I'm still keeping my cup full and not being shy on the salt - i was thinking of ordering some salt pills to make it easier than doing the broth thing, any ideas about this?
Salt pills are fine. Does your logger track sodium? Mine does but I had to set up a custom nutrient goal to do it. You do not like chicken bouillon? I think MC said that chicken bouillon and HWC is like an incredible version of cream of chicken soup. You need about 5 grams of sodium a day but most people get 3 or 4 grams from their food.

For example, 2oz of bacon is about 1.2g of sodium. An ounce of cheese is about .3 grams. 4 oz of dill pickles are about 1g of sodium.

I think you need to establish how much sodium you are getting before you start supplementing with salt pills.
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Old 03-01-2013, 09:56 AM   #17
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Oh! Casey has said many times that she uses Power Aid Zero (I think) to keep her electrolytes stable. You could do something like that too Myles.
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Old 03-01-2013, 10:39 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by reddarin View Post
Right but the carbs aren't the issue. Do you eat what you ate from that restaurant frequently? Have you described the pain to your family that ate that food that night too and asked if they had any symptoms of any sort?
I did, no one else had any problems


Quote:
Originally Posted by reddarin View Post
Myles, I was stalled at 205 for months and months. I understand your frustration. I empathize entirely.

And it is worth pointing out that we were making progress until you had a health issue that threw a monkey wrench into everything. We had established that at an average of 2700 calories you were keeping a steady reading on the scale. The next step was to try to get to a 3000 calorie average so we could try to determine the right caloric deficit to encourage weight loss. Too much of a caloric deficit is not good for healthy weight loss and it is just not healthy in general.
roger


Quote:
I want to straddle the fence here. We cannot ignore the pain or the meds you are taking to deal with it. So, try to keep your calories up but don't make yourself sick over it. Don't starve yourself but don't throw more at your body to deal with. I'm thinking in terms of changing things in your menu. Try to continue as you have been eating and wait until the event has resolved itself before making changes.
kk



Quote:
Salt pills are fine. Does your logger track sodium? Mine does but I had to set up a custom nutrient goal to do it. You do not like chicken bouillon? I think MC said that chicken bouillon and HWC is like an incredible version of cream of chicken soup. You need about 5 grams of sodium a day but most people get 3 or 4 grams from their food.

For example, 2oz of bacon is about 1.2g of sodium. An ounce of cheese is about .3 grams. 4 oz of dill pickles are about 1g of sodium.

I think you need to establish how much sodium you are getting before you start supplementing with salt pills.
i have no problem with chicken boillion, i just thought taking a pill would be easier . Here is my sodium from the last 30 days (at least since i started tracking) (yesterday i didnt finish tracking cuz i went home, took the pills and just layed around till they kicked in, and afterwards i just plain forgot or was out of it) - and today it's 12:45 when im posting this, still have the rest of the day to go


Last edited by Myles; 03-01-2013 at 10:47 AM..
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Old 03-01-2013, 10:46 AM   #19
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Oh! Casey has said many times that she uses Power Aid Zero (I think) to keep her electrolytes stable. You could do something like that too Myles.
a lot of stuff is hard to find in canada, i searched the dealers from that other salt thing and couldnt find a canadian one, but are these things from health food stores?
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Old 03-01-2013, 11:33 AM   #20
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Back to joining the NK group!

Current Weight 202.6
Final Goal Weight 145

My Numbers using the formulas above:

Protein 98g = 392 Calories
Carbs 25-30g Gross (I'm going to eat 20g from Veggies and the rest from dairy/eggs) = 100-120 Calories
Fat 160-185g = 1440-1665

Total Daily Calories 1932-2177

Red, does this sound right? I haven't been low-carb for about a month or so, should I start by doing a Fat Fast or just jump right into NK?
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Old 03-01-2013, 11:39 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goolash View Post
a lot of stuff is hard to find in canada, i searched the dealers from that other salt thing and couldnt find a canadian one, but are these things from health food stores?
power aid should be where the gatoraid is in the regular grocery store/convenience store.
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Old 03-01-2013, 11:40 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goolash View Post
i have no problem with chicken boillion, i just thought taking a pill would be easier . Here is my sodium from the last 30 days (at least since i started tracking) (yesterday i didnt finish tracking cuz i went home, took the pills and just layed around till they kicked in, and afterwards i just plain forgot or was out of it) - and today it's 12:45 when im posting this, still have the rest of the day to go
Looks to me like you are doing just fine where sodium is concerned without having to resort to salt pills Myles.
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Old 03-01-2013, 11:41 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goolash View Post
a lot of stuff is hard to find in canada, i searched the dealers from that other salt thing and couldnt find a canadian one, but are these things from health food stores?
The Power Aid Zero is just a sports drink. Any sugar-free carb-free one is fine I reckon.
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Old 03-01-2013, 11:53 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by melisa82 View Post
Back to joining the NK group!

Current Weight 202.6
Final Goal Weight 145

My Numbers using the formulas above:

Protein 98g = 392 Calories
Carbs 25-30g Gross (I'm going to eat 20g from Veggies and the rest from dairy/eggs) = 100-120 Calories
Fat 160-185g = 1440-1665

Total Daily Calories 1932-2177

Red, does this sound right? I haven't been low-carb for about a month or so, should I start by doing a Fat Fast or just jump right into NK?
Hi Melisa Welcome back

Numbers look about right. Any health issues or Rx meds?

I'm not convinced that a fat fast hurries the process along. Eating 25 or 30 total grams of carbs is not going to delay keto-adaptation in any measurable manner I think.

But!! I love fat fast for other reasons. It is a great way to turn the page and put your foot down. It is a physical manifestation of your mental decision to change what you are doing and *that* makes it a very good tool for kick starting LC/NK.

Either way is fine I reckon
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Old 03-01-2013, 12:14 PM   #25
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sorry I'm late to the party again:

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maybe I'm turning into a MAN!!!

Alright Missy. Let's see if you can pass a simple man test.

You walk into the restroom. There are 5 urinals along one wall. One guy is there and he is at the 3rd urinal.

Which urinal do you use and why?
I use the stall...I know there is at least one with a door
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Old 03-01-2013, 12:21 PM   #26
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sorry I'm late to the party again:



I use the stall...I know there is at least one with a door
heh Buzzzzzzz You have failed the man test!
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Old 03-01-2013, 12:21 PM   #27
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Although, if there are only two urinals then using a stall becomes mandatory.
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Old 03-01-2013, 12:21 PM   #28
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Where is Cheryl this morning?
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Old 03-01-2013, 12:24 PM   #29
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Have you asked the people that said that Bernsy? I don't recall any regulars on our thread using the BMR.
People following Atkins seem to believe that you eat above your BMR by 200/300 cals in order to lose. Just doesn't make sense. Don't you need a deficit? or not when you are low carbing??
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Old 03-01-2013, 12:27 PM   #30
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Hey Myles, I get celtic gray sea salt and add a lil spoon full (mine comes with a wooden spoon) to a 30 oz cup of water. I LOVE it! I almost drink it more w than w/o the salt!

Hm i have never seen that, is it like a supplement?

I get mine at the local HFS.
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