High Fat NK 80/15/5 - March Version

[dasschus]

Originally Posted by NKSL55

I can tell you for a fact that a WiThing scale has no ability to distinguish fat from muscle. While I was losing fat, what it reported seemed reasonable to me. But then, when I started powerlifting, I could see muscle hypertrophy in the mirror, but my WiThings scale reported no increase in LBM, only fat.

It would be great if it worked, but it doesn't.

Very good to know!! Thank you!

Kelly

[MOPACHO]

Still confused after all the reading I have done. I have read all the monthly threads and have calculated what my macros (based on protein and cals) should be based on current weight and where I want to be at.

Looking to lose the last 10 lbs. My confusion revolves around the total kcals I should be shooting for. There are so many calculators out there that give you wildly different #'s to shoot for total calories wise to lose weight.

Based on my calcs using the formula's at the start of each of the monthly threads I am coming up with aprox this to get to the optimal 80% fat 15% protein & 5% carbs:

1,800 cals for the day <---this is the problem!!! I have NO clue but this seems like too much and that can really throw your #'s off if this is not close to accurate.

However I am using a goal of about 68-70 grams of protein a day then filling the rest in with healthy fats ( organic coconut oil & coconut butter, nut butters, Grass Fed butter sour cream - fat bombs) & then carbs ( I stay at about 20 g or so most of that comes from veggies..ie spinach and the minimal carbs from, sour cream, hard cheese and cream cheese)

Hoping to get some folks to weigh in. I have been maintaining for the last year with a higher protein intake and lower fat ratio but carbs stayed steady at about 20g as stated above. Never really counted calories like this but was very lethargic - that is how I came across this WOE. I assumed I was eating too much protein.

thoughts??? fee back? thanks so much

also wanted to add that I'm 42 yrs old and 5ft 9in

[reddarin]

Originally Posted by dasschus

Do you think the LBM bounce back is accurate though? Can a person gain that much LBM overnight? I'm clueless! Do you know?

I think I'll do it again next month just to see if it makes a difference whether you start out in ketosis or not when doing a fat fast. I'll wait to get my ketone strips so I can test to make sure I'm in ketosis before starting. I know for a fact that I was not in ketosis when I started the fat fast but by the end their was a sign of moderate ketones on the Ketostix.

Kelly

No, not the exact numbers but in the broad strokes yes.

[reddarin]

Originally Posted by MOPACHO

Still confused after all the reading I have done. I have read all the monthly threads and have calculated what my macros (based on protein and cals) should be based on current weight and where I want to be at.

Looking to lose the last 10 lbs. My confusion revolves around the total kcals I should be shooting for. There are so many calculators out there that give you wildly different #'s to shoot for total calories wise to lose weight.

Based on my calcs using the formula's at the start of each of the monthly threads I am coming up with aprox this to get to the optimal 80% fat 15% protein & 5% carbs:

1,800 cals for the day <---this is the problem!!! I have NO clue but this seems like too much and that can really throw your #'s off if this is not close to accurate.

However I am using a goal of about 68-70 grams of protein a day then filling the rest in with healthy fats ( organic coconut oil & coconut butter, nut butters, Grass Fed butter sour cream - fat bombs) & then carbs ( I stay at about 20 g or so most of that comes from veggies..ie spinach and the minimal carbs from, sour cream, hard cheese and cream cheese)

Hoping to get some folks to weigh in. I have been maintaining for the last year with a higher protein intake and lower fat ratio but carbs stayed steady at about 20g as stated above. Never really counted calories like this but was very lethargic - that is how I came across this WOE. I assumed I was eating too much protein.

thoughts??? fee back? thanks so much!!

Don't confuse 'optimal' with 'optimal for me'. 80/15/5 is a nominal macro not an optimal one. And macro ratios can be very deceptive because of calorie levels.

The formula, (132/2.2)*35, give you a maintenance calorie level of about 2100 calories. But your current weight calorie expenditure is only about 150 more per the formula.

So 1700 to 1800 is probably the right range to take off the 10 pounds. It is a start point. If you need to you can reduce a little after you are strict LC for a while and track your results for a while.

70g of protein seems a bit low for 132 pounds. It is about 1.16g/kg.

There are some things that will impact how you proceed. Health issues, Rx meds, OTC meds, exercise type and how much daily/weekly.

[Clueless]

Originally Posted by dasschus

What scale are you looking at?
Wait, don't tell me. I don't need another gadget.
So what kind is it?


Kelly

I was looking at the EatSmart Precision GetFit Digital Body Fat Scale on amazon.
Has anyone used this scale?

[MOPACHO]

Originally Posted by reddarin

Don't confuse 'optimal' with 'optimal for me'. 80/15/5 is a nominal macro not an optimal one. And macro ratios can be very deceptive because of calorie levels.

The formula, (132/2.2)*35, give you a maintenance calorie level of about 2100 calories. But your current weight calorie expenditure is only about 150 more per the formula.

So 1700 to 1800 is probably the right range to take off the 10 pounds. It is a start point. If you need to you can reduce a little after you are strict LC for a while and track your results for a while.

70g of protein seems a bit low for 132 pounds. It is about 1.16g/kg.

There are some things that will impact how you proceed. Health issues, Rx meds, OTC meds, exercise type and how much daily/weekly.

I've not been consistent with exercise....My life is very hectic ( I have 2 boys with autism and well we run on "organized chaos" ) I try to get 3 days of light exercise in for my sanity. Otherwise, no health issues, no meds just my multi and have started taking mag and potassium sups as well. Became a little dehydrated when doing a 2 day fat fast and this has helped a great deal. So based on the protein calc it would seem that I should shoot more for 80-90 ish range and fill the rest in via the 1,700 - 1,800 range. Keeping carbs to 20 makes the rest just basic math. Just wanted to make sure my calcs were not wildly off as I see many folks here that are well below that cal intake with similar stats as mine. its enough to make a gal's head spin :-) thanks for the input Red....truly grateful for seasoned input!

[dasschus]

Pork rind nachos are sooooo tasty!

[Clueless]

Mopacho,
Welcome,
Nice to meet you.

Originally Posted by reddarin

Not mind candy type books?

Probably the most recent was "The Little Book of Talent: 52 Tips for Improving Your Skills". Very concise and very interesting.

Another awful book was "30 Days to Better Thinking and Better Living Through Critical Thinking: A Guide for Improving Every Aspect of Your Life, Revised and Expanded". Just pathetic. A book of dictums rather than critical thinking.

"The Courage Quotient: How Science Can Make You Braver" was a very interesting book to read.

Thanks for sharing Darin.
I have read tons of self help type books. I just think they are interesting. But most of them are stinkers, or just common sense. Probably read and donated hundreds of diet book too. I have to be careful, I have a book spending problem. I only allow myself to buy a few a year now.
I finally ordered my self The Art and Science of LC living and the preformance book too.

[dasschus]

Originally Posted by Clueless

I finally ordered my self The Art and Science of LC living and the preformance book too.

That's what I'm reading right now! Just finished the performance one.


Kelly

[reddarin]

Originally Posted by MOPACHO

I've not been consistent with exercise....My life is very hectic ( I have 2 boys with autism and well we run on "organized chaos" ) I try to get 3 days of light exercise in for my sanity. Otherwise, no health issues, no meds just my multi and have started taking mag and potassium sups as well. Became a little dehydrated when doing a 2 day fat fast and this has helped a great deal. So based on the protein calc it would seem that I should shoot more for 80-90 ish range and fill the rest in via the 1,700 - 1,800 range. Keeping carbs to 20 makes the rest just basic math. Just wanted to make sure my calcs were not wildly off as I see many folks here that are well below that cal intake with similar stats as mine. its enough to make a gal's head spin :-) thanks for the input Red....truly grateful for seasoned input!

From what I've seen, most if not all of the people that endorse very low calorie eating because it is the only thing that works for them fail to mention their health issues and/or age when they make emphatic statements. And it seems to me that the very low calorie crowd are frequent restarters because they are unable to maintain such a huge calorie deficit.

If you just finished up a fat fast you may see a bump in the scale like Kelly was describing a little earlier. No worries.

Have you listened to the Jimmy Moore and Julia Ross podcast? Here is some of the content that I transcribed about calories:

'Dr. Julia Ross jimmy moore atlcx 19'.

Here is what is being said at...

24:35

JM: "One thing I have found personally that has helped me is getting adequate amounts of fat in my diet. I think a lot of people when they start a low carb diet and they're brand new and they have never really heard about the high fat aspect of it. They neglect the fat Julia, and they think, 'oh well if low carb is good a low fat version of it must be better'. And that is a great way to doom it really fast".

Dr. Ross: "Doom it, that's right! Because now you are back to low calorie. And low calorie is starvation. Low calorie causes rebound weight gain. Rebound cravings. It is just a disaster area. But it is very hard for people to deprogram themselves from that dieting mentality. 'Hey the less the better. If protein will hold us and we can do without the carbs, lets get rid of the fat too'."

107:57
Dr. Ross: "...and what are the things that suppress thyroid function and interfere with it? Well, low calorie dieting. In 8 hours a real low calorie diet will turn down the thyroid. And then the question is will it ever turn up again naturally. For some people it will but then on the 5th diet it turns down and it won't turn up again.

1:11:37
Dr. Ross: [JM asked about subbing LC/GF foods for high carb counterparts] "...and then the second way is the under eating way 'Okay! I'll just get rid of it all and I'll just, just do the protein and the vegetables and maybe some fats' - That's where I find you know that starvation mentality trips us up so badly."

1:12:15
Dr. Ross: [eating enough] "...Some people just won't do it. They are just so low calorie diet programmed that they can't make themselves eat enough food. And it is so critical to eat enough. Because otherwise blood sugar crashes and we get these terrible cravings. So it is really important that we have enough protein enough fat as our fundamentals and then we move in on the healthy carbs."

[reddarin]

Yeah, I like self-help books and always have but not all of them are created equal that is for sure.

[MOPACHO]

Originally Posted by Clueless

Mopacho,
Welcome,
Nice to meet you.



Thanks for sharing Darin.
I have read tons of self help type books. I just think they are interesting. But most of them are stinkers, or just common sense. Probably read and donated hundreds of diet book too. I have to be careful, I have a book spending problem. I only allow myself to buy a few a year now.
I finally ordered my self The Art and Science of LC living and the preformance book too.

Hi there!!! thanks for the welcome

[MOPACHO]

Originally Posted by reddarin

From what I've seen, most if not all of the people that endorse very low calorie eating because it is the only thing that works for them fail to mention their health issues and/or age when they make emphatic statements. And it seems to me that the very low calorie crowd are frequent restarters because they are unable to maintain such a huge calorie deficit.

If you just finished up a fat fast you may see a bump in the scale like Kelly was describing a little earlier. No worries.

Have you listened to the Jimmy Moore and Julia Ross podcast? Here is some of the content that I transcribed about calories:

'Dr. Julia Ross jimmy moore atlcx 19'.

Here is what is being said at...

24:35

JM: "One thing I have found personally that has helped me is getting adequate amounts of fat in my diet. I think a lot of people when they start a low carb diet and they're brand new and they have never really heard about the high fat aspect of it. They neglect the fat Julia, and they think, 'oh well if low carb is good a low fat version of it must be better'. And that is a great way to doom it really fast".

Dr. Ross: "Doom it, that's right! Because now you are back to low calorie. And low calorie is starvation. Low calorie causes rebound weight gain. Rebound cravings. It is just a disaster area. But it is very hard for people to deprogram themselves from that dieting mentality. 'Hey the less the better. If protein will hold us and we can do without the carbs, lets get rid of the fat too'."

107:57
Dr. Ross: "...and what are the things that suppress thyroid function and interfere with it? Well, low calorie dieting. In 8 hours a real low calorie diet will turn down the thyroid. And then the question is will it ever turn up again naturally. For some people it will but then on the 5th diet it turns down and it won't turn up again.

1:11:37
Dr. Ross: [JM asked about subbing LC/GF foods for high carb counterparts] "...and then the second way is the under eating way 'Okay! I'll just get rid of it all and I'll just, just do the protein and the vegetables and maybe some fats' - That's where I find you know that starvation mentality trips us up so badly."

1:12:15
Dr. Ross: [eating enough] "...Some people just won't do it. They are just so low calorie diet programmed that they can't make themselves eat enough food. And it is so critical to eat enough. Because otherwise blood sugar crashes and we get these terrible cravings. So it is really important that we have enough protein enough fat as our fundamentals and then we move in on the healthy carbs."

Awesome info! I am still trying to wrap my head around the idea of the higher fat and cals..but I am seeing that it is truly the way to go. I do feel much better than I did with the higher protein...I was ALWAYS tired.

[dasschus]

Ugh. So pork rinds protein doesn't count?

I've been reading that the protein isn't a good source.
"The type of protein in pork skins is called collagen, the same substance found in hair, fingernails, and horsehooves. Its bio-availability is almost non-existent, hence the statement on the package. People in survival situations (the Donner party, etc.) have attempted to use leather as a food source, with unfortunate results. "

This is kind of important, I would think. So should we be counting that protein or not? Thoughts?

[portcop01]

I'd like to no the answer!!if I eat to many I don't lose. Weight

[Clueless]

I look at pork rinds like this. It is a type of low carb junk food. It is good in that we feel the need for some junk sometimes. They take the place of all those crunchy foods we choose not to eat on LC, chips, pop corn, tortillias. Plus, there is nothing wrong with having some collagen in our diets. Some of what you get out of those healthy bone broths are collagen after all. People take collagen supplements all the time.

But, since it is a kind of junk food, we shouldn't make it a staple, just a treat that helps us stay on course and not feel deprived. So if you eat a serving or 2 now and then and count the proten you should be ok. Just don't let your protein be too low all the time. Get good sources of protein too.
Anyway that is the way I look at it

[Clueless]

Originally Posted by MOPACHO

Awesome info! I am still trying to wrap my head around the idea of the higher fat and cals..but I am seeing that it is truly the way to go. I do feel much better than I did with the higher protein...I was ALWAYS tired.

I know what you mean. I had always been on Low fat diets. I really had a hard time eating butter and cream cheese and thinking it was ok. But then I had so much more energy and felt so much better it got a lot easier. I must have really had a problem with insulin because I was dragging daily on high carb low fat.

[portcop01]

Good answer!

[dasschus]

Sounds logical to me. I guess if I do feel the need for nachos I should add some fajita or taco meat.
Honestly, I think the closer I stay to non-processed foods the better.

But yeah. Low carb junk food. Good way to think of it. Thank you!

Kelly

[reddarin]

Numbers and log for today.

Calories: 2,505

Fat: 224
Pro: 110
Car: 23

78/18/3

Breakfast: Coffee, CO.
Lunch: Bacon, chicken, cabbage w/bouillon and bacon grease.
Dinner: Pork rinds and pickles.
Snack: Fat bomb.
End of Day: 1oz CO.

[reddarin]

If I eat pork rinds I count them towards my protein for the day. But I doubt that an all pork rind day would be good.

Becky, they are super high fat so if you eat a lot you are eating a lot of calories without regard to the protein.

Is there an LC doc that has said one way or the other about pork skins? Or a clinical trail? All I found when I googled it was people like us talking to each other.

Pork skins are very low in tryptophan but you only need 200 to 300mg a day. It is hard not to get enough tryptophan since everything but fat has some in it.

[Clueless]

If you google "junk food that's good for you" Jeff Volek has a little segment about pork rinds.

[dasschus]

Sunday food log:

Large coffee with CO and HWC and hazelnut sweetener
Pork rinds with cheddar, jalapeños and sour cream
Cream cheese with lemon and liquid sucralose
90grams steak and Caesar Salad
1 tbs CO

Calories: 1397
Fat: 119g
Protein: 70g
Carbs: 10g

76.2/20/3.8

Little low on the protein. Still learning how to fine tune this.

Kelly

[LightlyStarched]

I really hate trying to log every bite into a calorie calculator. Its really hard to do it when you cook via the "throw it in the bowl" method, lol.

B: 3 egg omelet with 1 oz swiss, 1 oz ham, made w/butter. Coke Zero.
L: Curried chicken salad. Diced up chicken from 3/4 of a rotisserie ckn, diced up 1 green apple. Made dressing from approx 12 oz full fat Greek Yogurt, 1/3 c sugar free apricot jelly, 2 T curry powder, salt & pepper. Mixed all together, stirred in some slivered almonds. Served to family....ate about 1/4 of recipe?
S: dark chocolate...maybe 1.5 oz?
D: 1 skewer of beef cubes, grilled. 1.5 servings of cauli & cheese.
2-3 glasses of crystal light all day.

I feel very full and overfed.

[reddarin]

Originally Posted by Clueless

If you google "junk food that's good for you" Jeff Volek has a little segment about pork rinds.

Interesting. I notice that Volek counted the protein.

[Clueless]

Originally Posted by reddarin

Interesting. I notice that Volek counted the protein.

I do too.

[Myles]

alright quick post before bed to stay accountable.

I dont have calories for today cuz it would have been too lengthy to figure out and i just didnt have the time, but its day 1 on a sales trip.

Woke up 5 am, 5:30 had 4 eggs scrambled in butter. On the plane, had the egg omelette and chicken sausage and skipped the potatos and bread.

Then went to my sisters to see my nephews and had a few slices of cold leftover brisket (no sauces or anything on it), then i bought some pepperoni slices and had 10 of those and 1 slice of havarti cheese. THen i went for dinner with clients to a fancy restaurant and had an awesome big ribeye steak and a few spears of asparagus and a few mushrooms - now bed.

Calories - no Idea
Protein _ probably a bit high
mad? - nope

Any more advice for eating on the road is welcome, i have my protein shaker and powder with me, and bought some cheese and pepperoni and hard boiled eggs for the road, but seriously its hard, especially in the remote areas where restaraunts have like 2 things on the menu... night

[amandacj08]

Boo! I had a whole post typed out and lost it. I do eat pork rinds on occasion when my kids are on the couch next to me with a popcorn...sigh I really do miss popcorn and oats, but I guess I'm lucky that is all I miss.

I am feeling good today. Picked up some powerade zero and found it very easy to drink (I usually don't like sweet drinks).

B: 1 egg in Kerrygold butter, coffee with HWC and CO, 2 strips of bacon
L: 1.5oz of leftover chicken in salad, 1/2 small avocado, laughing cow wedge
S: 1 slice of muenster cheese, 6 pork rinds while watching Skyfall
D: 6 oz of garlic shrimp in a homemade butter cream sauce with 1 oz Kerrygold cheese melted in
Ended the day with a lowcarb crustless lemon cheesecake recipe and a sliced strawberry on top

1515 cal 122f 90 p 20 c

I may do 1/2 tbl CO in some coffee to get my cals and fat up a bit more.

[amandacj08]

Originally Posted by goolash

alright quick post before bed to stay accountable.

I dont have calories for today cuz it would have been too lengthy to figure out and i just didnt have the time, but its day 1 on a sales trip.

Woke up 5 am, 5:30 had 4 eggs scrambled in butter. On the plane, had the egg omelette and chicken sausage and skipped the potatos and bread.

Then went to my sisters to see my nephews and had a few slices of cold leftover brisket (no sauces or anything on it), then i bought some pepperoni slices and had 10 of those and 1 slice of havarti cheese. THen i went for dinner with clients to a fancy restaurant and had an awesome big ribeye steak and a few spears of asparagus and a few mushrooms - now bed.

Calories - no Idea
Protein _ probably a bit high
mad? - nope

Any more advice for eating on the road is welcome, i have my protein shaker and powder with me, and bought some cheese and pepperoni and hard boiled eggs for the road, but seriously its hard, especially in the remote areas where restaraunts have like 2 things on the menu... night

That is a good day on the road! It is SO hard to be low carb when you travel, especially if there is a lot of flying involved - everything around you is carby! Keep on rockin it, Myles!

[dasschus]

The Monday weight: 201.00 (yesterday's weight 201.2)

Well, at least it went the right direction this time.

Kelly