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Old 02-19-2013, 09:49 AM   #1
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4 weeks Keto, no loss, no nothing! Refeed?

Hello everyone,

Almost 4 weeks in Keto. My blood ranges .5-2.1. (stix usually in the dark pink) I have lost NOTHING. No water, no fat, no inches.

135 lbs, guessing 22% body fat (maybe less?). I work out regularly 3-4 times a week, eating about 1600 cal or so. About 100g average in protein, 125 grams fat average, about 20-25 net carbs per day.

I do have a very good amount of muscle, but also a layer of fat, I would like to dispose of.

I Have been reading up on the leptin levels, and wanted to know if maybe I should try a carb refeed? Im apparently in a stall right out of the gate!

When do I start my first refeed? I workout around noon. What is the best way to do a refeed? (weekend?)

Also, Im completely confused. Lyle the Keto guy says high protein, lower fat and calories (of course lower carbs)? Others say high fat?
Neither is doing a thing for me, so what should I be doing?
Running out of ideas!
Thank you
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Old 02-19-2013, 11:28 AM   #2
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I think I'd try bottoming out the total carbs.

Be patient. You are trying to lose very few pounds and that is no easy task for anyone on any type of diet.

In my experience continually making a lot of changes to what you are doing in a short period of time doesn't work out well.

Probably the best way to proceed is to pick a path and stay on it with perhaps very small tweaks if any tweaking at all. If you are going to follow Lyle's advice then follow it as he describes. If you go with Phinney and NK then follow Phinney/Volek's advice. Where the interpretation of the information is contradictory, as you see here in this sub-forum quite frequently, pick one and stick with it until you are reasonably certain that it is not working for you.

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Old 02-19-2013, 02:18 PM   #3
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Thanks.. OK, if I go Phinney, and follow the ratios, and I am taking in that much fat, how will I be able to burn my stored fat?

Also in the ratios provided on this website, it didn't state ideal protein for someone who is active with muscle. According to my goals, I should only have 85 grams of protein. Not much for someone who would like to keep their muscle? I can easily take in that much protein, infact its very difficult to take in less.

If I want to stay at around 100g, thats 400cal of my "ideal" total calorie intake of 1988.

I suspect its very important that I take in the total 1988 cal. Do I need to eat good fat to make up those calories daily? If so, when do I start burning my own fat?

That is where my issue lies.. Burning stored fat instead of dietary fat.
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Old 02-19-2013, 04:01 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dawnth1 View Post
Thanks.. OK, if I go Phinney, and follow the ratios, and I am taking in that much fat, how will I be able to burn my stored fat?

Also in the ratios provided on this website, it didn't state ideal protein for someone who is active with muscle. According to my goals, I should only have 85 grams of protein. Not much for someone who would like to keep their muscle? I can easily take in that much protein, infact its very difficult to take in less.

If I want to stay at around 100g, thats 400cal of my "ideal" total calorie intake of 1988.

I suspect its very important that I take in the total 1988 cal. Do I need to eat good fat to make up those calories daily? If so, when do I start burning my own fat?

That is where my issue lies.. Burning stored fat instead of dietary fat.
It isn't a case of 'that much fat'. To lose weight on LC, all things being equal, you need a reasonable calorie deficit. If you are eating your protein grams and the rest of your 2000 calories as fat and you are not losing weight after a week or two then bump fat/calories down to 1900, then 1800. If nothing is happening then take a close look at what you are eating. Make sure there has been no carb creep no well it is 75g carbs for the day but only 30 net carbs so that is okay type stuff. Make sure your fat is not coming from PUFAs. Look at your protein grams and maybe lower them a little because protein can be insulinogenic and thwart ketosis. If you are eating 40g total carbs and you've bumped your calories down by 200 then consider trying 20g total carbs to see if carbs are the problem.

Phinney's range is 1.5 to 2.0 grams per kg of reference weight. Feel free to up your protein to 2.0 if you wish and see how it works for you. If your weight creeps up, or you do not lose, then consider bumping back down towards 1.5g.

Phinny said, in the long term stalls podcast I think, that extra protein was probably not necessary for most people working out.

The thing about eating more protein than your body can actually use at any given time is that it cannot be stored by the body. There is no storage mechanism for protein. What doesn't get used gets converted to something else. I've read somewhat conflicting information on it but at best some large amount will get converted to glucose and at worst all excess will be converted to glucose - either way it is contrary to ketosis.

The thing about the 1988 number that you need to keep in mind is that for practical purposes it is just an educated guess at your calorie expenditure for x weight for a normally active adult. You are not a 'normally' active adult. And you are very close to your goal weight. So that makes the guess less accurate than it already is.

There is only *one* way to find out what works for you. Pick one way. Do it for 3 or 4 weeks. Monitor your results often but steel yourself against making changes pell mell. If you tweak, make very small tweaks and document them. Don't tweak more than one thing at a time. Watch for patterns. Keep a spreadsheet.
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Old 02-19-2013, 06:02 PM   #5
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probably your situation is this: you were not eating a lot of carbs before you went on this plan, so you didn't have that large initial loss most people get. and you are not eating low enough calories to lose faster than you are.
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Old 02-19-2013, 09:26 PM   #6
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Another note: I seen to experience Keto flu about once a week. Headache, feverish, feeling, just icky. Tonights episode included nausea, and wanting bread to make my stomach feel better. Chicken and broccoli did help stomach. Haven't found info on intermittent flu symptom s
A
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Old 02-19-2013, 09:33 PM   #7
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If your weight is low (135 lb seems low to me) and your body fat percentage is low (at your guess, under 22 percent), then it may be very difficult for you to lose weight using any approach. You may be at a weight that your body likes and doesn't want to drop below (a set point), or you may be able to lose more weight only very slowly and by making changes that you aren't happy with (such as substantially lowering protein and/or calories) or that are hard to maintain long term. I don't know how tall you are, but you seem to be going for a very ambitious goal and it's no surprise that you aren't finding it easy to get there. I agree with picking an approach and following it to the letter for a few more weeks, to evaluate whether it will work for you--and if it doesn't, re-evaluate your goal or try a different approach to the letter for an extended period.
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Old 02-19-2013, 09:35 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dawnth1 View Post
Another note: I seen to experience Keto flu about once a week. Headache, feverish, feeling, just icky. Tonights episode included nausea, and wanting bread to make my stomach feel better. Chicken and broccoli did help stomach. Haven't found info on intermittent flu symptom s
A
Are you drinking salty broth? Getting adequate amounts of water, potassium, and magnesium? Ingesting enough salt? Taking a multi-vitamin? (People eating low carb need more salt than those not eating lowcarb.) Sounds to me like your body is lacking some nutrient or your electrolytes are not in balance. Does drinking a sugar-free drink with electrolytes help your symptoms?
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Old 02-20-2013, 08:27 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by svenskamae View Post
If your weight is low (135 lb seems low to me) and your body fat percentage is low (at your guess, under 22 percent), then it may be very difficult for you to lose weight using any approach. You may be at a weight that your body likes and doesn't want to drop below (a set point), or you may be able to lose more weight only very slowly and by making changes that you aren't happy with (such as substantially lowering protein and/or calories) or that are hard to maintain long term. I don't know how tall you are, but you seem to be going for a very ambitious goal and it's no surprise that you aren't finding it easy to get there. I agree with picking an approach and following it to the letter for a few more weeks, to evaluate whether it will work for you--and if it doesn't, re-evaluate your goal or try a different approach to the letter for an extended period.
That is an excellent point. You are working out a lot and presumably gaining heavy muscle mass offsetting lighter weighing fat tissue loss.

Maybe you should look into reliable body fat measurements and let that guide you rather than scale weight.
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Old 02-20-2013, 02:18 PM   #10
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Thank you. Yes. I take vitamins daily and my diet provides plenty of salt. I agree that muscle mass is taking up weight, but it's the nice layer of fat I have around my body, that I'm trying to work out. I would make a guess of about 22_25% fat. It's that day, I'm really having a hard time with. I am 5`4".
I think I'm going to drop my protein, and fat and see what happens. Keeping calories around 1600.
I'm also going to slow weights as well.
Any other advice is very welcome.
Thank you
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Old 01-29-2014, 05:59 PM   #11
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I am in a similar boat as you. Weight stays steady at 128-130. I eat essentially the same breakdown as well between carbs, fat and protein. I feel best eating high fat low carb and moderate protein but it feels impossible to lose the last few pounds. I though about a carb reefed once a week to see if it helps. I really don't tolerate carbs at all. The exercise part I have down, im in the military and we work out a lot. But read your post and your breakdown of fats, carbs and protein is right on with me and the scale hasn't budged for a long time.
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Old 01-30-2014, 02:36 AM   #12
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Hi micmal, welcome!

Can you post a couple days' menus with exact quantities?

Also, how old are you, are you male or female and how tall are you?

Are you in ketosis? How did you measure this?

Your ratios (i.e. percentages) may be fine, but ultimately it comes down to the actual grams of protein, carbs and fat you consume.

Also, you may not be losing weight quickly because you are nearly at your goal weight. And exercising may stall weightloss, so check for inchloss too!

xxx Chloe.
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