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Old 02-25-2013, 05:44 PM   #31
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Here are the sources of PUFAs from wikipedia. Fish, nuts, seeds, olive oil. I thought these were the good fats. Now I am really confused...LOL.

Polyunsaturated fat - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Old 02-25-2013, 05:50 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Punkin View Post
Here are the sources of PUFAs from wikipedia. Fish, nuts, seeds, olive oil. I thought these were the good fats. Now I am really confused...LOL.

Polyunsaturated fat - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Old 02-26-2013, 03:28 PM   #33
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Updates on me

After 4 weeks, still no loss, no nothing.. I would experience a little malaise one evening a week, but tolerable. Nothing I would say was a huge "low carb" flu...

I stayed my ground in carbs 20-30g. Protein 80-100 or so. Cals 1700 average.

End of week 4... for 3 days.. horrible food/barfing dreams (sorry), nauseated, feverish behind the eyes, and insatiable appetite. Just ICK!!

Being that I am very active and probably slightly lower fat, I thought a refeed must have been needed, as my Leptin had probably been really low.
So I planned a 24 hour refeed, with a workout at the end of it.

Was that a bad idea? I did gain 2 lbs, which I expected would be water weight.

How do I know I need one? I thought for sure my brain was telling me I needed it.

The main issue is, after a month I didnt lose anything. Im thinking of dropping protein and fat. Any thoughts? I dont understand why I wont lose anything..
Arg, playing trial and error is no fun!
Thank you
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Old 02-26-2013, 05:38 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by dawnth1 View Post
After 4 weeks, still no loss, no nothing.. I would experience a little malaise one evening a week, but tolerable. Nothing I would say was a huge "low carb" flu...

I stayed my ground in carbs 20-30g. Protein 80-100 or so. Cals 1700 average.

End of week 4... for 3 days.. horrible food/barfing dreams (sorry), nauseated, feverish behind the eyes, and insatiable appetite. Just ICK!!

Being that I am very active and probably slightly lower fat, I thought a refeed must have been needed, as my Leptin had probably been really low.
So I planned a 24 hour refeed, with a workout at the end of it.

Was that a bad idea? I did gain 2 lbs, which I expected would be water weight.

How do I know I need one? I thought for sure my brain was telling me I needed it.

The main issue is, after a month I didnt lose anything. Im thinking of dropping protein and fat. Any thoughts? I dont understand why I wont lose anything..
Arg, playing trial and error is no fun!
Thank you
Hmmmm. I don't know why you got to feeling so badly unless you were finally experiencing induction flu but it sounds sort of extreme. Any chance your electrolytes were out of whack? Not enough sodium, potassium, magnesium, water?

Did you eat a lot during those three days when you were so hungry?

It has actually only been exactly 20 days today.

Refeeds are not NK. It just means it will take you 2 to 3 weeks to get keto-adapted again if you choose to.

My suggestions:

Don't refeed while you are attempting NK.

Greatly curtail your workouts.

Keep your protein between 70g and 80g.

No change in weight at 1700 calories means, to me, that one of the macros is out of whack. Or that we have underestimated your caloric expenditure meaning the calorie gap is too big.

I'd keep the 1700 for a week and see if the scale moves with the greatly reduced workouts. If it goes down a little I'd push cals up to 1800 for the next week and see how the scale does. If it stays the same or bumps a little, I'd drop the cals to 1600 the following week. If the scale shows losses I'd continue at 1800.

I think your workouts are interfering with the weight loss you want. Get to 130 and then you can ramp up the workouts again.

We know for sure that the workouts are not helping you lose weight or you'd have lost weight in the last 20 days.

-OR-

Keep everything the same and bump calories to 2000 for a week and see if the scale moves.
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Old 02-26-2013, 08:28 PM   #35
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Thank you. Today would be day 31. I did refeed dy 28.
I feel like I get enough sodium, but now I have noticed cramps in my feet after my runs this week.
I ate to task on my hungry days. Given all I have read my protein may have been really high.
My stix a showed slight this morning, and my blood after work out was .2, so I am moving back into Keto. So, IM going to add sodium, lower exercise, drop protein, and eat calories that makes me feel satisfied. I'll see what happens in a couple of weeks. Thanks so much. You are so informative!
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Old 02-27-2013, 04:18 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by dawnth1 View Post
insatiable appetite. Just ICK!!
I recommend reading the atkins book. Atkins a new you. Do the induction period for two weeks. You have to reduce your carbs and eat fat until satiety. Your body has not yet converted to fully using fat for fuel, and is still asking for glucose based fuels. I'm about 2 months into the diet and I am still not fully fat adapted.

When you mention refeed, your not talking about carbs are you? Because that won't work for NK. It has to be fat that you give your body, so the refeed looks different for NK. The theory behind a refeed is preventing your body from shifting into down-regulation. So you have to know what your maintenance intake is. The theory is that your protein would stay the same (ie. moderate), your carbs would be as low as possible, and the rest would come from fat. So for a refeed in NK you would increase your fat to make up the extra calories. At least that is what I did and it worked for me. If you aren't fully fat adapted, and your body still asks for glucose as a fuel source, when you try to eat at a deficit to lose bodyfat, you will experience problems such as hypoglycemia, hunger, illness, and carb cravings. Its only after you are fat adapted that you can really reduce calories to lose fat. For some people the conversion from glucose to fat adaptation takes longer and you have to wait it out.

Also sometimes stalls don't truly reflect what is going on with your body. For example I go through weeks at a time where there is literally no scale weight but I am noticing fat loss, through a change in the way I look and how my clothes are fitting. Could this be the case?

Anyways, that is just some of what has worked for me, hope that helps.
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Old 02-27-2013, 04:24 AM   #37
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Maybe you could just explain why PUFAs are bad fats for LC/NK, because it might be confusing. I know I am confused, since I thought there were good fats.
Im not sure if red covered this but int he JM podcost episode 11 of Ask the low carb experts with Jeff Volek he also goes over Why polyunsaturated fats on a low-carb diet are a bad idea

(actually i havent listened to this yet, will be today)

I didn't provide the link because i think its against the rules here? not sure but you can google it no problem
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Old 02-27-2013, 04:25 AM   #38
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Also one thing that red pointed out that was true and made me think "WTH was i thinking" I'm not a body builder, so that "refeed" business sure does't apply to me. Im just a simple fat guy trying to lose weight
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Old 02-27-2013, 07:53 AM   #39
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I will try to be patient allow myself to start again. No inches or anything lost.. not even water! Im thinking that since I am an overdoer when it comes to exercise, the cortisol may have me at a stand still. Thanks
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Old 03-02-2013, 12:51 PM   #40
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If you are on a low fat diet then you might actually need to supplement with poly-unsaturated fatty acids, because there are a couple of them that your body needs but cannot synthesize itself. Hence these are "essential" PUFAs. But there is reason to think that high amounts of PUFAs in your diet are bad for a couple of reasons.
(1) As mentioned above, those unsaturated bonds are less stable than saturated carbon bonds and subject to producing free-radical break-down products. Free radicals are extremely reactive and damage other biomolecules in your body. Your body has methods for scavenging these molecules but they would have some limits.
(2) There are two major essential PUFAs, omega-3 and omega-6. The former mainly comes from fish and the latter from plants. Pundits speculate that a 1:1 omega-3 : omega-6 ratio is desirable. SAD tends to be massively omega-6 dominant.

So, the reason why PUFAs are "good" fat is that you will die without some amount of them in your diet. However that amount is probably low. On our high fat diets there is zero chance we would end up with omega-6 deficiencies. Probably not omega-3 either, but we still might suffer from 3/6 imbalances.

The reason PUFAs are "bad" is because the unsaturated bonds are delicate and can become hyper-reactive super oxide molecules (via, for example, heating). Also many of the oils we are accustomed to eating (eg soybean and canola) are omega-6 rich which skews the balance of omega-3/omega-6.

Okay, just to confuse things even more, there is this "heart-healthy" thing associated with PUFAs, even omega-6 fatty acids. I think all but the most blinkered of health professionals no longer believe that omega-6 fatty acids confer "heart health". There have even been some meta-studies recently that suggest that omega-3 supplementation confers no cardiac benefits. But I think the preponderance of the evidence supports there being some benefit.

Personally, I supplement my diet with a daily 1-1.5 g of omega-6 (EPA and DHA) via a fish oil supplement. But I do so to try to normalize my omega-3/omega-6 ratios so that the inflammatory pathways fed by omega-6 PUFAs don't go crazy. Not for the supposed cardiac benefits of doing so. I would rather eat a diet lower in omega-6 PUFAs, but that requires more work than I am willing to devote at the moment. By which I mean, I don't seek out grass-fed meat and eggs (lower omega-6). I do use grass-fed butter because that is easily available.
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Old 03-03-2013, 04:46 AM   #41
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I do use grass-fed butter because that is easily available.
I didn't know butter ate grass. You learn something new each day!
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Old 03-12-2013, 11:30 AM   #42
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I think maybe I am having too many calories...my current weight is 206 lbs. I want to weigh 169. I don't know how to do the math to figure my allowed calories for the day. I know I have kept my carbs low, but am concerned about my protein and fats.
Thanks for your help!
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