High Fat NK 80/15/5 - February Version

[reddarin]

Hello Everyone!

Welcome to February's High Fat 80/15/5 NK thread!

Our goal is a healthy LC high fat macro and mandatory daily protein regimen resulting in a state of Nutritional Ketosis. The ideal ratios would be 80/15/5 F/P/C but the execution is to eat the required protein amount in grams and filling out the rest of your calories in fat with carbs being as low as possible.

So as long as you are eating your required protein, any day that results in 65+% Fat macro is a win. If you can reach 80%+ so much the better but it is only a goal to strive for not a mandate.

Protein

First determine your protein requirements. There are several ways to do it. You need to know the appropriate goal weight for a person of your height and frame size. Your protein is calculated from it so it is important.

Per Dr. Phinney in The Art and Science of Low Carb Living and in subsequent podcasts the appropriate protein range is between 1.5 and 2.0 grams per kg of ideal weight. The formula looks like this:

Convert your ideal weight in pounds to kg with (ideal_weight/2.2) then multiply it by 1.5 - (ideal_weight/2.2)*1.5 to get your protein grams goal.

If you miss your protein goal for the day you can see how far off you are using this equation: actual_grams/(ideal_weight/2.2).

Be aware that there are few if any overt signs of protein deficiency until there is a crisis situation with your body. So. Take care not to eat too little protein. Dr. Phinney said that .8g/kg_ideal_weight is too little for LC.

Adequate protein consumption protects your lean body mass - essentially, everything that is not fat is LBM. Eating too little protein can result in .25 to 1 pound of LBM loss a day!

Calories

Dr. Phinney gives a range of 30-35kCal per goal kg weight. He states that 35kCal is the norm and 30kCal is for a very sedentary individual.

Phinney's formula for daily calories: ((goal_weight/2.2)*30) or ((goal_weight/2.2)*35).

So, if your goal weight is 150 then (150/2.2)*35 = 2386. ~2400 calories is what a normally active person that has a correct weight of 150 pounds would burn daily.

Once you know your protein grams and have an idea of your daily calorie goal you can work on getting there with a combination of protein and fat.

On calories, consider this post if you think that you have to have very low calories to lose weight.

Very low calorie diets will result in LBM loss. Lose your body fat not your LBM by keeping your calories up.

Establish what you should be eating at goal weight and start there. Work your way down slowly if you must but the best way to do it is to start high and work downwards to minimize LBM loss.

Another issue with calories concerns having too much of a caloric deficit. Too big of a gap between what you are expending and what you are consuming stresses the body and a stressed body fights fat loss. Your metabolism slows down to accommodate the big gap in energy intake/output. Not to mention the stress hormone cortisol that also acts to hold on to fat.

Macros

Macro ratios are a valuable tool but they can be very misleading because relative percentages are deceptive. The three macros and the fourth control (calories) form a rubber band that can stretch into some surprising shapes but still look like a well formulated LC regimen when it is not.

You know your protein and you know what Phinney has to say about calories so how do you get your macros?

Phinney states that NK is reached with 65-85% Fat / ideal protein consumption / under 50g Total Carbs a day.

Going with Phinney's daily caloric expenditure of 35*kg and using our 150 pound example:

(150/2.2)*35 = 2386 calories.
(150/2.2)*1.5 = 102g protein.

Protein is 4 calories per gram and fat is 9 calories per gram so...

(102*4)= 408
408/2386= 17% for our protein macro percentage.

If we commit all remaining calories to fat... 2386-408 = 1978 -> 1978/9 = 220 grams of fat. Stay with me.

How much, as a percentage, is that of total calories? 1978/2386 = ~83%

Right now your macros look like this: 83/17/0

30g of total carbs looks like this:

(30*4)=120/2386 = 5% of 2386

So you've used 528 calories and you have 1858 left for a fat macro of:

(1858/9)=206 grams and (1858/2386)= 77% fat macro. 77/17/5.

If you use 30kCal/kg the same protein and carb grams create this macro ratio - 74/20/6

Macros II - Calories II

Remember that macro percentages are relative to calories consumed. That means that they are skewed and very deceptive if the calories are low or high for *your* protein grams goal.

For example, 74/20/6 looks excellent if the calories are right for you and you ate the goal amount of protein. But if you can have the exact same macro at 1200 calories and be super low on protein at about 58% of protein grams goal. Even if you get your protein grams in (408 calories), at 1200 calories you are at a 50% calorie deficit for an active person that actually weighs our hypothetical 150 pounds. Worse yet, your relative caloric deficit will be greater because you are not at the goal weight we are using for the calculations. Like so: current weight 190 and goal weight 150 - your relative caloric deficit is 60%.

Fat

A quick word about Fat. Not all Fat is created equal. Soy oil is not a good fat - it is a highly polyunsaturated fat and you should avoid high PUFAs oils. Use mono-unsaturated and saturated fats. Coconut oil, real butter, olive oil, animal fats, etc. If you aren't sure about the oil google it. Don't sabotage yourself by assuming what the Standard American Diet considers a 'healthy fat' is actually a healthy fat for LC.

Food Logging

There are several really good food loggers. Direct linking is not possible per the TOS of LCF so just google around. Try at least 3, using them at the same time, so you can get a feel for which one suits you best. Most of them have smart phone companion apps if that is important to you.

You really have to log your food if you are going to be successful at the challenge of 80/15/5. That doesn't make it a ball and chain that you are forever saddled with, but your short term goal is virtually undoable without accurately logging what you eat.

Even if you are doing well without logging your food log history can be the lynch pin to figuring out why you are stuck at some point in the future.

Daily/Weekly Weigh-Ins

Do you weigh in daily or weekly? Totally up to you! I weigh in daily because I like the constant feedback. *BUT*, if you choose to do daily weigh-ins you have to accept that daily weights are a snapshot in time only. They are interesting data points but that is all and they are meaningless without the context of time. In other words, weigh in daily if you want but pay attention to the trend not the individual snapshot of weight.

Consider the fact that per Phinney your body maintains about a 4 pound water weight window. Zero to 4 pounds of liquids sloshing around inside you. See this post for a pretty good explanation about this window and how it affects weigh-ins daily, weekly, even monthly.

Tape Measure

You should measure yourself periodically. It can really make a difference when the scale refuses to budge by showing that you are losing inches despite what the scale says. If there is no weight loss on the scale for a week but you measure and can see that you've lost an inch here or there it will stop you from wildly tweaking what you are doing when what you are doing really is working.

Links of Interest

January's 80/15/5 thread.

December's 80/15/5 thread.

A sodium thread I created.

Long Term Stalls podcast with Jimmy Moore and Dr. Phinney. I made a list of the things covered in the podcast with the time it is located at within the recording. It isn't all inclusive but it is thorough.

Phillip has a great post about how cholesterol LDLC is calculated here.

Sodium

Low carb - it is not a low sodium way of eating or living. You *must* get your sodium in or your body will suffer. It might suffer silently for a long time before it finally breaks. Or it might express itself as agonizing leg cramps. Those cramps are caused by dehydration and/or a potassium deficiency but if you are a low sodium consumer then your sodium deficiency is contributing to your potassium loss and dehydration. The body throws potassium overboard if it has to choose between potassium and sodium. That is how important sodium is to your body. Phinney advises 5 Grams of sodium daily! That is a lot of sodium. Fear not! Unless you are going out of your way to eat low sodium you are probably getting 2 to 4 grams in your food every day. A little extra use of the salt shaker will fix up most people just fine. It is worth taking a look at how much sodium you are getting if you use a food logger. Table salt is not one for one on sodium grams. Google for the conversion 'how much sodium in table salt'. If you've been a casual low sodium person then you should pay careful attention to what you are eating and shun your former salt scoffing ways.

Consider whatever health conditions you might have when contemplating how to address the sodium issue with your way of eating.

The body will cannabalize LBM for potassium if it has to. So, low sodium -> sacrifice potassium -> rob lean tissue for potassium -> poor LC results.

Supplements

If you aren't supplementing start now. Here are a few tips on it to get you started.

Most Americans, probably most people worldwide, are magnesium deficient. Magnesium is a wonder mineral that has far ranging benefits. For LC'rs, on top of all of the other wonderful things it does, it also helps with regularity. It is a must. Go easy! Don't go full dose all at once. Ramp up to whatever dose you set for yourself. Start at 1/4 to 1/2 the RDA and slowly go up over a week or two's time. If you react to your dose don't panic. It will pass. Lower the dose and take a little more time. I currently take 2xRDA. A good strategy is to buy a kind that is not a single pill dose so you can tailor your dosing.

Google 'LLVLC-ep-602-morley-robbins', it should be the first hit, for an excellent free podcast about this very important mineral.

Potassium. Dr. Eades of Protein Power advises 4 of the 99mg pills while on induction and then 2 of the 99mg pills, I believe, afterwards. If you are experiencing cramps don't overlook water intake. Dehydration causes awful cramps too. The best thing is pure water. Even if your sodium is right you probably should still supplement with potassium because LC is a water shedding way of eating and that is where a lot of potassium (and sodium) exits the body.

Multi-vitamin. I doubt there are many LC'rs not taking a multivitamin but if you happen to be one, go to the store now and buy some. Really.

The rest. There are others that you probably should be taking daily too. Google 'atlcx-26-dr-jonny-bowden', it should be the first hit, for a free podcast that is excellent about supplements in general for LC. Jimmy Moore asks the fantastic question 'what are your trapped on a desert island choices'.

Notes

Join in the conversation any time. Feel free to ask any questions you have. We are all happy to help you. Lurkers are welcome too.

[bjjcaveman]

Thanks for setting this up!

[Deb34]

Red, google "Could Fish oil cause Red face?" first hit should be ehealthme study of almost 18000 fish oil users, 1916 of them have facial flushing. Interesting reading the study particulars....

On a similar side point, my cod liver oil is not causing any flushing that I notice, but combined with CO, my body temp seems to be running higher. I feel quite a bit warmer now than usual. I've been using the combination for 2 weeks now.

[shunsweets]

Hi everyone!

[reddarin]

Originally Posted by Deb34

Red, google "Could Fish oil cause Red face?" first hit should be ehealthme study of almost 18000 fish oil users, 1916 of them have facial flushing. Interesting reading the study particulars....

On a similar side point, my cod liver oil is not causing any flushing that I notice, but combined with CO, my body temp seems to be running higher. I feel quite a bit warmer now than usual. I've been using the combination for 2 weeks now.

Excellent link Deb!

I fit into 3 of the groups flagged for experiencing it: male, 40-49 age bracket and my BP is a bit high.

I think it is the crappy fish oil supplement I've been using. I'm switching over to krill oil this week (today). I just finished up my week's pill minder thing so that is perfect.

I was concerned it might be the eggs because I've increased eating them quite a bit.

Thanks

[reddarin]

Originally Posted by shunsweets

Hi everyone!

[reddarin]

One of the things I really like about javascript is the programming community. Whatever you need to do someone has figured it out and posted it somewhere on the internet, usually at stack overflow. What a great site.

Way back in the stone ages, around '97, VB and VBA was all the rage for casual programmers and you talk about closely guarded secrets. Good luck trying to figure out how to do something cause no one was sharing their code techniques. When I switched to Borland Delphi it was night and day different. Lots of resources and lots of very experienced programmers helping everyone. Very cool.

But I also have the excellent Eloquent JavaScript book. I forgot I had it until some page mentioned it concerning working with strings.

If you have ever thought 'man I wish that page wouldn't do that!' and you are decent with a computer you should get Chrome browser and write an extension for yourself to fix it.

For example. I get a podcast every day from one site. The way they have it set up, you click the link, it pops open a small window (second browser instance), then you click the link and it opens the browser's mp3 player, then I have to right click the player, click save as, click okay to save it to my computer.

With an extension, which I am writing right now, I will reduce all of that crap to clicking the link and the save as box popping up.

[mizzcase]

Hi all, was so busy this week, just checking in and catching up now!

[rubidoux]

Darin, I'm happy it looks like its not eggs. That would be rough.

Since I got fell into this deeper state of ketosis I have just been reeling. I think I might feel like my three year old does when he is completely out of control and throwing himself at the walls. I'm not currently feeling nauseous, but I'm afraid that's bc I haven't eaten yet today. I still have no appetite at all, which is so liberating and wonderful until I really need to make myself eat. I'm considering having two servings of salmon (30 g pro each) maybe 3 hours apart and calling it a day. I've also had a treinta iced coffee w HWC (no idea how much they put in).

Anyone know if I'll eventually mellow out and want to eat again?

[mizzcase]

Rubidoux, the nausea has derailed me several times, until I figured out I was taking too much magnesium and thats what was causing it. Are you supplementing?

[reddarin]

Originally Posted by mizzcase

Hi all, was so busy this week, just checking in and catching up now!

[portcop01]

Beach tommorrow .temp 82 went to San Juan today much better than we're we are staying water is blue.atv rides Sunday thru rain forest!!

[reddarin]

I read your thread about what you are experiencing and I couldn't think of what it might be Jayne.

mizzcase might be right about the magnesium. Have you changed your supplements recently?

What about your diabetes medication? Is it possible that it is too much or too little?

Do you take any other medications?

Can you think of anything that might have changed just before you started feeling this way the first time?

[reddarin]

Sounds like you guys are having a great time Becky!

[SouthernGirl61]

Originally Posted by reddarin

Excellent link Deb!

I fit into 3 of the groups flagged for experiencing it: male, 40-49 age bracket and my BP is a bit high.

I think it is the crappy fish oil supplement I've been using. I'm switching over to krill oil this week (today). I just finished up my week's pill minder thing so that is perfect.

I was concerned it might be the eggs because I've increased eating them quite a bit.

Thanks

Darin, it could be environmental. Allergens are on the way up in Texas. Our azaleas are blooming, pollen is in the air. Many are having allergy attacks and sore throats this week. Food allergies are rare, intolerances can be issues season to season....if your throat isn't swelling, heart racing, sweating, then give a rash a week or so. Sometimes the only thing is to identify the problem and put benadryl gel on it too. When this happens to me, I up the benadryl for three days...usually calms the system. New thread is good, thanks for your work posting!

[SouthernGirl61]

Originally Posted by reddarin

One of the things I really like about javascript is the programming community. Whatever you need to do someone has figured it out and posted it somewhere on the internet, usually at stack overflow. What a great site.

Way back in the stone ages, around '97,

Let me pre-date you...I came out of college using Fortran and Cobol.

Yes, it is nice now that when we get stumped that there are many out there who have previously been where you are and will help you out of that hole you dug yourself in!

[reddarin]

Originally Posted by SouthernGirl61

Darin, it could be environmental. Allergens are on the way up in Texas. Our azaleas are blooming, pollen is in the air. Many are having allergy attacks and sore throats this week. Food allergies are rare, intolerances can be issues season to season....if your throat isn't swelling, heart racing, sweating, then give a rash a week or so. Sometimes the only thing is to identify the problem and put benadryl gel on it too. When this happens to me, I up the benadryl for three days...usually calms the system. New thread is good, thanks for your work posting!

Is benadryl gel better than hydrocortisone? Or better suited?

Is the generic version of benadryl okay? Or is there even a generic version?

[SouthernGirl61]

Originally Posted by portcop01

Beach tommorrow .temp 82 went to San Juan today much better than we're we are staying water is blue.atv rides Sunday thru rain forest!!

Sounds wonderful Becky! Soak up some sun for me!

[SouthernGirl61]

Originally Posted by reddarin

Is benadryl gel better than hydrocortisone? Or better suited?

Is the generic version of benadryl okay? Or is there even a generic version?

if you are having a histine reaction, then benadryl (generic is great, I use Wally World pink ones) is what you need. I have never relieved a rash successfully with hydrocortisone...but I am highly allergic and mine seem a bit testy. Fish Oil when stopped should be out of your system after a couple days, may be worth it to stop for at least three days to see if that is the issue, switching to another brand may not give you the answers you need.

[reddarin]

Originally Posted by SouthernGirl61

Let me pre-date you...I came out of college using Fortran and Cobol.

heh that *is* ancient

I really supercalifragilisticly loved Delphi. Pascal is such an easy language to learn but incredibly flexible too. I wrote all kinds of cool little utility apps for my own use with it. I was a moderator at a site, back then, and I wrote a program that was essentially a single site web browser. It captured all of my interactions with the users. I used bits as flags for the type of issue. It used Topaz for a database but also produced flat flies for easy ctrl-f editor searches. Dang it was the coolest program I ever wrote lol.

Borland, or whoever owned Delphi a few years ago, priced me out of my hobby by killing the $99 full featured version and going to $400 as the least expensive package.

I really liked VBA when it was made a part of Office. Well, for Excel and Outlook anyway, I never used it for the rest of the Office apps. I had an Excel spreadsheet for my expense report (on the road back then) that would practically make coffee for me. I was so ingenious with it that a few times I went back to tweak something and couldn't figure out how the heck I'd done that little block of code in the first place. Sadly, I still suck at meaningfully commenting my code.

[reddarin]

Originally Posted by SouthernGirl61

if you are having a histine reaction, then benadryl (generic is great, I use Wally World pink ones) is what you need. I have never relieved a rash successfully with hydrocortisone...but I am highly allergic and mine seem a bit testy. Fish Oil when stopped should be out of your system after a couple days, may be worth it to stop for at least three days to see if that is the issue, switching to another brand may not give you the answers you need.

Thanks ct.

I hate to stop taking it but I'd sure like to know if that is the problem. I have been taking a lower dose for a long time without any problem. I went from 1 gel to 3 gels.

[Yvonnem2000]

Thanks for getting the new month going. It gave me a chance to really read all the great info you have posted at the top. Very useful!

[mizzcase]

Good morning everyone.

I was thinking about this last night and am interested in knowing the answer. I definitely don't plan on doing this, but it got the wheels spinning in my head..

I know much of the concern about NK, or any kind of way of eating that restricts protein and/or calories, is the loss of LBM due to insufficient protein intake. What if you eat restricted calories, but most of it is PURE protein, do you still lose the LBM?

For example, I got some Optimal Nutrition casein protein (chocolate flavor, omg it tastes like a milkshake!) in the mail a couple days ago. One scoop is 24g of protein, 4g of carbs, 1 g sugar, 120 calories. I made a shake with a cup of almond milk at 8:30 AM (the almond milk was 30 calories) and WOW! I was not slightly hungry until 3PM..

What if all I did was drink 4 of these shakes a day? 600 calories, 96g of protein, 16g of carbs, 4g of sugars.

What kind of effect would this have on my body? I'd still be getting more than adequate protein to maintain my LBM.. at my height and weight, my sweet spot is about 75g a day. Would I still lose LBM?

Definitely not planning on doing this, but really wondering how it would work.


BTW, if you're finding it hard to fit in protein, have a cup of this stuff before you go to bed. It is the most delicious thing I've ever put in my mouth. :-)

[reddarin]

Good morning everyone!

[reddarin]

I got distracted and forgot to post my numbers for yesterday. I'm going to go back to what I was doing in September and October - posting logs and menus and weigh-ins.

The reason I gave up on abstaining from smoking is that I kept gaining weight. I could not stay on plan - LC or NK. I'd get on for a day or two and then fall right off. I think once or twice I got back on track for as long as a week.

At any rate I never did mention what I saw on the scale that made me feel that I needed to chose between fat non-smoker or skinny stinky smoker.

216.7 - on the 15th of January - 18 days ago.

This morning's weigh-in: 205.3

The thing about 205 is that it was my stall weight for months. I got so discouraged that I quit studiously pursuing LC and just went on casual maintenance but still very low carb. In September, after some stressful stuff, I fell off of LC for a few weeks. When I finally got the courage to get on the scale I was at 214. It was a shocker and it brought me back to LCF and to paying attention to what I was doing.

So, 216 was a shocker. Higher than when I recommitted to weight loss LC several months ago.

That is the current state of affairs. Onward!

[reddarin]

Numbers and log for Friday the 1st.

Calories: 1,867

Fat: 145
Pro: 116
Car: 30

69/26/6

Breakfast: CO & coffee.
Lunch: Bacon and eggs.
Dinner: Jalapenos, squash, tomato, chicken and sour cream.
Snack: HWC float.

[Clueless]

Originally Posted by reddarin

I got distracted and forgot to post my numbers for yesterday. I'm going to go back to what I was doing in September and October - posting logs and menus and weigh-ins.

The reason I gave up on abstaining from smoking is that I kept gaining weight. I could not stay on plan - LC or NK. I'd get on for a day or two and then fall right off. I think once or twice I got back on track for as long as a week.

At any rate I never did mention what I saw on the scale that made me feel that I needed to chose between fat non-smoker or skinny stinky smoker.

216.7 - on the 15th of January - 18 days ago.

This morning's weigh-in: 205.3

The thing about 205 is that it was my stall weight for months. I got so discouraged that I quit studiously pursuing LC and just went on casual maintenance but still very low carb. In September, after some stressful stuff, I fell off of LC for a few weeks. When I finally got the courage to get on the scale I was at 214. It was a shocker and it brought me back to LCF and to paying attention to what I was doing.

So, 216 was a shocker. Higher than when I recommitted to weight loss LC several months ago.

That is the current state of affairs. Onward!

Wow 11 lbs in right around 2 weeks. Thats great!
Congrats

[reddarin]

Originally Posted by mizzcase

do you still lose the LBM?

Yes. It is because of the body's response to very low calorie regimens. The effects on your body would be, I think, essentially the same whatever the reasonable macro composition at that level of calories because of the energy deficit.

The powder may be a an excellent protein source but it can't be an excellent nutrient source in and of itself. It seems to be exactly what Phinney meant when he said that it is very hard to get proper nutrition with very low calorie plans. At the hCG website[1] they point out that the body turns to LBM on very low calorie plans because body fat is a poor source of nutrients.

Cortisol is going to be a big player at that party too. It is going to hinder protein use for LBM and foster protein conversion to glucose.[2]

The plan would also be very detrimental to your kidneys which would have to perform extraordinary work to utilize the practically protein only menu.[3]

Sources to google:

[1] 'lean-body-mass-or-fat-on-the-hcg-diet'
[2] 'dear-mark-how-much-protein-can-you-absorb-and-use-from-one-meal'
[3] 'vegetarianism-and-plant-foods/protein-building-blocks-of-the-body'

...and there are lots of other considerations.

[reddarin]

Thanks Cheryl

[mizzcase]

Thanks red! Makes sense.