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-   -   February Nutritional Ketosis...Are you in the zone? (http://www.lowcarbfriends.com/bbs/nutritional-ketosis-high-fat-low-carb/795935-february-nutritional-ketosis-you-zone.html)

MerryKate 01-31-2013 07:52 PM

February Nutritional Ketosis...Are you in the zone?
 
February Nutritional Ketosis...Are you in the zone?

Welcome to the February Nutritional Ketosis thread! We’re loosely following the Phinney/Volek books, The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Living and The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Performance, along with our own experiences of getting into and sustaining nutritional ketosis.

The main points for getting into NK are:
• Find your correct protein gram range (there are several different formulas)
• Find your correct carb gram range (under 50 grams, many find under 20 or 30)
• Add fat to satiety and to your goals (will usually fall within 65%-85% of total calories)
You are putting your body into a state (nutritional ketosis) where it can easily access body fat for fuel. Part of your daily fat % will be made up from body fat so you do not have to have any particular percentage of fat from your diet. The most important thing is to get your protein and carb grams at the correct level to induce ketosis.

Just getting into ketosis does not guarantee weight loss, you must also be in an energy deficit. The Phinney/Volek Performance book advises that if you are in ketosis and eating fat to satiety and not losing weight you should lower your dietary fat.

Some of us are using a blood ketone meter to track our ketosis and adjust our macronutrients based on the readings. This process is described the the Performance book. While its not necessary, it can be very helpful especially to find carb and protein limits!

The original thread for Nutritional Ketosis on Low Carb Friends can be found here. The September thread can be found here. The October thread can be found here. The November thread can be found here. While there was no December thread, the current incarnation of the January thread also came out of this thread on testing blood ketones.

Here are a few links that you may find helpful:

NK recipe thread

Daily NK menus thread

Cheat Sheet

FAQ

Happy losing everyone!!

(For clarity's sake, this is Kristn's intro from the last few NK monthly threads.)

shelley 01-31-2013 08:42 PM

Well done MerryKate!!!!

bjjcaveman 01-31-2013 08:44 PM

Weight: 178.2
AM Ketones: 0.6
AM Blood Glucose: 86
Hours of Sleep: 6:59
Energy Level: Good
Physical Activity: Light jogging x 20 min
Nutritional Ketosis Streak: 25 days

Appetite has really gone down lately... I think the satiety effect is really starting to take hold.

Also weight has finally hit a new low! Which I'll celebrate even though it's only by 0.2.

Punkin 02-01-2013 02:30 AM

I have the performance book and was wondering if I should buy the living book. does anyone have both books? What is the difference between the two book? I was wondering if I need both books.

drjlocarb 02-01-2013 04:50 AM

Thanks for doing that MerryKate!

I know Kristn has been too busy with real life to keep babysitting all of us.

drjlocarb 02-01-2013 04:58 AM

Feb 1st;

Stats;
wt 241
AM BK- 1.1
AM BG- 107

Nutritional Goals;
Cal- 1400-1500
Carbs- 20g Net
Protein- 70-80g
Fat- less than 122g

Weight goal for Feb - 2 lbs....PLEASE!

lowcarbella 02-01-2013 05:26 AM

Hi all, just reporting for last month.
I don't read all posts and don't post often due to busy schedules,but I am doing my own variation of NK.Last month lost 5 pounds doing a fat fast and modified fat fast,but so far cannot advance to NK levels ,by which I mean cannot increase protein any higher than that.Which means still playing around a lot with my numbers.
But I am still happy since some of my older clothes are finally fitting me.I also seem to have lost fat around my shoulders,bcoz the way they fit.
I am researching more about ketogenic diets for kids,as one of my kids may need it.So I was happy to see Cantins Ketogenic diet interview with Jimmy Moore.Anyone read the book?Any useful info there?
I am kind of stuck at 189 for 2 weeks now.Hopefully I want to be 180/185 by end of Feb.nothing interesting to post,going back to my researches.
Happy NKing everyone.

UnstrungHarp 02-01-2013 06:01 AM

Thanks MerryKate!! :)

To get the usual update stuff out of the way, here are the numbers for the past week.

Weight
143.8 --> 144.4 --> 144 --> 143 --> 143 --> 145 --> 144.8

Ketones
2.2 --> 1.8 --> 2.1 --> 1.8 --> 2.2 --> 2.2 --> 2.2 (consistent, huh?)

And I'm expecting TOM within the next 24-48 hours, so that explains (I hope) the increase in weight over the past 2 days and my increased hunger over the same period.

I do have one other thing I wanted to mention, in the hopes that somebody else has experienced this and can offer advice. Sorry in advance for being so wordy... I'll go ahead and give the TL; DR: My cholesterol is so high (especially LDL) that I might get kicked out of the clinical trial for a drug that has successfully cleared up my psoriasis for nearly 2 years.

I just had my clinical trial check up on Monday of this week, where they always do a blood draw to make sure that everything is going okay as far as the medicine is concerned. For some reason I don't understand, this type of drug is thought to possibly raise cholesterol. Makes no sense to me, but I haven't spent time trying to research it because (until now...) there hasn't been a problem.

My previous visit was November 5, and I got my copy of the blood work from that date when I showed up for my latest appointment on Monday. That's what we usually do, so whenever I see results, they're already about 3 months old. I did not expect to see anything unusual on the Nov. 5 results, since I only started NK on Nov. 1. I forgot to mention they also test for ketones in the urine... that was listed as "1+" on November's results, so I was already in ketosis - no surprise. As far as cholesterol, as usual, my November results showed VERY high HDL, VERY low triglycerides, and an LDL that's within range. The total cholesterol always appears high because of the really high HDL ("out of range"). I think it's funny that they even show an HDL range, because shouldn't there be a minimum but no maximum? As in, the more the better??

I don't have the November results in front of me at the moment, but I do have the exact numbers from Monday, because the nurse emailed a copy of the results to me within 2 days (cholesterol raised some "red flags").

Total cholesterol: 302 (range: 130-200)
HDL-C: 125 (range: 40-80)
Triglycerides: 65 (range: 45-250)
LDL-C: 164 (range: 0-130)

By the way, fasting glucose was 74, urine still showed ketones (duh), and my blood pressure and resting heart rate were both still very low....the nurse jokes every time that I'm barely alive.

The nurse emailed me these results, concerned about the cholesterol, asking "did you have a big meal 24-48 hours before the blood draw?" I don't know what constitutes a big meal, but I didn't eat anything out of the ordinary. She said this is not going to be "reported as an adverse event" unless it happens again at my next appointment on April 29. But she also said I should try to get cholesterol checked by another doctor prior to the April appointment and report back to her with the results.

I have researched the things that a low carb, high fat diet can do to your cholesterol and what it actually means in terms of risk for heart disease. I've also seen a lot of articles about how LDL-C is useless. And, I've also read that if you are breaking down body fat, that can cause cholesterol to be released into the blood stream... and that would be an outstandingly wonderful thing in my opinion. So, I don't honestly think there is cause for concern, except for the fact that I absolutely don't want to get kicked out of the psoriasis drug trial.

I guess if I had to ask a specific question to you guys...has anyone else had their LDL-C numbers skyrocket on NK? And, perhaps more importantly, is there some kind of "diet hack" I can start doing a few days before my next scheduled blood draw to help lower that number, at least temporarily? For example... is it reasonable to expect a lower LDL reading if I reduce the amount of eggs I eat for the 3 days prior to the blood draw? Eat more salads and low carb green veggies? Juice fast? Kidding. :D

Whew... thanks for reading, if you made it this far. :)

mom2zeke 02-01-2013 06:04 AM

Thank you so much for starting the thread MerryKate! My big project at work is in its culmination phase (everything should be finished and up and running by Feb 22nd) and my time to post has been very limited lately.

I'm going to test ketones over the weekend and post my stats!

Happy losing everyone!

bjjcaveman 02-01-2013 06:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnstrungHarp (Post 16233003)
Thanks MerryKate!! :)

To get the usual update stuff out of the way, here are the numbers for the past week.

Weight
143.8 --> 144.4 --> 144 --> 143 --> 143 --> 145 --> 144.8

Ketones
2.2 --> 1.8 --> 2.1 --> 1.8 --> 2.2 --> 2.2 --> 2.2 (consistent, huh?)

And I'm expecting TOM within the next 24-48 hours, so that explains (I hope) the increase in weight over the past 2 days and my increased hunger over the same period.

I do have one other thing I wanted to mention, in the hopes that somebody else has experienced this and can offer advice. Sorry in advance for being so wordy... I'll go ahead and give the TL; DR: My cholesterol is so high (especially LDL) that I might get kicked out of the clinical trial for a drug that has successfully cleared up my psoriasis for nearly 2 years.

I just had my clinical trial check up on Monday of this week, where they always do a blood draw to make sure that everything is going okay as far as the medicine is concerned. For some reason I don't understand, this type of drug is thought to possibly raise cholesterol. Makes no sense to me, but I haven't spent time trying to research it because (until now...) there hasn't been a problem.

My previous visit was November 5, and I got my copy of the blood work from that date when I showed up for my latest appointment on Monday. That's what we usually do, so whenever I see results, they're already about 3 months old. I did not expect to see anything unusual on the Nov. 5 results, since I only started NK on Nov. 1. I forgot to mention they also test for ketones in the urine... that was listed as "1+" on November's results, so I was already in ketosis - no surprise. As far as cholesterol, as usual, my November results showed VERY high HDL, VERY low triglycerides, and an LDL that's within range. The total cholesterol always appears high because of the really high HDL ("out of range"). I think it's funny that they even show an HDL range, because shouldn't there be a minimum but no maximum? As in, the more the better??

I don't have the November results in front of me at the moment, but I do have the exact numbers from Monday, because the nurse emailed a copy of the results to me within 2 days (cholesterol raised some "red flags").

Total cholesterol: 302 (range: 130-200)
HDL-C: 125 (range: 40-80)
Triglycerides: 65 (range: 45-250)
LDL-C: 164 (range: 0-130)

By the way, fasting glucose was 74, urine still showed ketones (duh), and my blood pressure and resting heart rate were both still very low....the nurse jokes every time that I'm barely alive.

The nurse emailed me these results, concerned about the cholesterol, asking "did you have a big meal 24-48 hours before the blood draw?" I don't know what constitutes a big meal, but I didn't eat anything out of the ordinary. She said this is not going to be "reported as an adverse event" unless it happens again at my next appointment on April 29. But she also said I should try to get cholesterol checked by another doctor prior to the April appointment and report back to her with the results.

I have researched the things that a low carb, high fat diet can do to your cholesterol and what it actually means in terms of risk for heart disease. I've also seen a lot of articles about how LDL-C is useless. And, I've also read that if you are breaking down body fat, that can cause cholesterol to be released into the blood stream... and that would be an outstandingly wonderful thing in my opinion. So, I don't honestly think there is cause for concern, except for the fact that I absolutely don't want to get kicked out of the psoriasis drug trial.

I guess if I had to ask a specific question to you guys...has anyone else had their LDL-C numbers skyrocket on NK? And, perhaps more importantly, is there some kind of "diet hack" I can start doing a few days before my next scheduled blood draw to help lower that number, at least temporarily? For example... is it reasonable to expect a lower LDL reading if I reduce the amount of eggs I eat for the 3 days prior to the blood draw? Eat more salads and low carb green veggies? Juice fast? Kidding. :D

Whew... thanks for reading, if you made it this far. :)

I've also seen my LDL go high and was surprised!

Through everything I've read it isn't too much to worry about.. and can be a temporary thing.. and about 20-30% of low carbers get it... something like this.

in terms of hacks.. I think doing low level aerobic activity can help bring it LDL down... I'm not sure if this will help in the course of 3 days though!

what levels do they want you at for the trial?

mom2zeke 02-01-2013 06:19 AM

Lindsay--From what I've read I do think that this WOE causes some people's LDL to go up. Thyroid also effects cholesterol and I am wondering if you ever got tested/test results (I'm sorry if I missed them). Even with an "okay" TSH, you should definitely look at your Free T4 and Free T3 numbers.

You should absolutely do whatever it takes to stay in your trial and that may mean tweaking the diet considerably or trying a different WOE.

UnstrungHarp 02-01-2013 06:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bjjcaveman (Post 16233050)
I've also seen my LDL go high and was surprised!

Through everything I've read it isn't too much to worry about.. and can be a temporary thing.. and about 20-30% of low carbers get it... something like this.

in terms of hacks.. I think doing low level aerobic activity can help bring it LDL down... I'm not sure if this will help in the course of 3 days though!

what levels do they want you at for the trial?

The surprising thing to me is that I haven't really lost any weight to speak of for the past 3 months, and the literature seems to imply that the cholesterol reading will go up if you are really losing a lot of fat. :dunno:

I wonder if it would help if I exercised the morning of the appointment? I usually don't because I have to be fasting, which means no coffee either (and that makes me miserable).

I assume as long as I'm within those reference ranges in my earlier post, they will not report an adverse event.

UnstrungHarp 02-01-2013 06:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mom2zeke (Post 16233058)
Lindsay--From what I've read I do think that this WOE causes some people's LDL to go up. Thyroid also effects cholesterol and I am wondering if you ever got tested/test results (I'm sorry if I missed them). Even with an "okay" TSH, you should definitely look at your Free T4 and Free T3 numbers.

You should absolutely do whatever it takes to stay in your trial and that may mean tweaking the diet considerably or trying a different WOE.

Wow, that is interesting about the thyroid and cholesterol connection. My appointment for the thyroid testing is next Tuesday...I had to wait for my OB/GYN to come back from vacation.

I hear what you're saying about changing my WOE to try to stay in the trial...I just really hate the idea of "giving up" on NK. There's something about the strictness of it that appeals to me, because apparently I don't handle the idea of moderation very well. I forget how long ago this was, but at one time I was trying some kind of weekly cycling thing, where I'd try to stick as close to zero carbs as possible on first several days of the week, coinciding with "glycogen depletion" workouts, then toward the end of the week do a "carb up" for about 48 hours, coinciding with a couple of heavy weight training workouts. Then the rest of the weekend was supposed to be a relatively normal diet, which was apparently considered "moderate" carbs or something. I don't really remember now. I just remember feeling miserable during the lower carb part of the week, obsessing/daydreaming about the coming "carb up" days, dreading when they were going to be over, not really understanding how to transition on Sundays from the carb up mentality back to a super-low-carb mentality.... it was no fun, and I don't think I had any results to speak of. All that switching around and keeping up with what I'm supposed to do on whatever day and worrying about whether my workout was the "right" one to do that day.... yuck. I'm much better with adherence when a particular food (or food group!) is off-limits at all times - not acceptable on one day and unacceptable on the next.

Sorry for the rambling. Thanks for letting me know about the thyroid thing... off to do more research now! :)

Yvonnem2000 02-01-2013 07:04 AM

Merrykate, thanks for setting up the new thread.

Lindsay, I wish I knew more. I tried reading Peter Attia's blogs about cholesterol, but I really couldn't follow it all. I hope you find a solution.

My am ketones were 0.7. Yea! And it only took me two strips this time! I'm not going to test again for a week, I think, because my plan is to keep eating exactly what I've been eating for the next seven days and see if I experience weight-loss. Once I know this works, I want to keep it as a home base to return to as I experiment.

drjlocarb, I'm going to copy your stats listing.

Feb 1st stats
Wt 146.6
AM BK 0.7

Nutritional Goals:
Carbs up to 30g total
Protein up to 75g

Goal for Feb:
Stay in NK and see where it takes me.

shunsweets 02-01-2013 10:24 AM

Planning to start testing A.M. ketones if I ever manage to get 3 high fat days in a row in. I have my strips but my stomach doesn't seem to be tolerating very high fat right now:sick:. Good news is weight is stable as are blood sugers (though higher than I would like them:annoyed:).
Back to silently lurking.:)

NKSL55 02-02-2013 08:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bjjcaveman (Post 16233050)
I've also seen my LDL go high and was surprised!

Through everything I've read it isn't too much to worry about.. and can be a temporary thing.. and about 20-30% of low carbers get it... something like this.

in terms of hacks.. I think doing low level aerobic activity can help bring it LDL down... I'm not sure if this will help in the course of 3 days though!

what levels do they want you at for the trial?

Remember, as I posted here, that LDL-C is calculated, not measured, in a standard lipid panel. The equation used to estimate LDL-C (the Friedewald equation) does not work well for people with very high, or very low triglycerides. There is another equation, sometimes called "the Iranian formula" that was designed to work over a larger range of trig concentrations. Using that your LDL-C is 135 -- still outside the range that appears to be allowed. But even the Iranian equation is based on a set of people who suffer from some sort of lipidemia, not people on low carb diets.

How long had it been since you ate your last meal before having the blood drawn for the lipid panel? (Including caloric stuff you drank -- like bullet proof coffee.)

--
Phillip

mom2zeke 02-02-2013 08:41 AM

Good morning everyone!
I'm going to use my Saturday weights and ketones to track from now on. I'm still weighing every day, but I'll use my Saturday number as my official weight.

Here are my Saturday stats starting 12/29/12:

Weight (Maintaining--goal is to stay within 2 lb of 145)
144.2 --> 147 --> 146.4 --> 145.8 --> 148 --> 145.2

Ketones (Goal > .5)
0.7 --> 0.2 --> 1.4 --> 0.9 --> 0.6 --> 0.8

How is everyone else doing?

mom2zeke 02-02-2013 08:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lowcarbella (Post 16232927)
Hi all, just reporting for last month.
I don't read all posts and don't post often due to busy schedules,but I am doing my own variation of NK.Last month lost 5 pounds doing a fat fast and modified fat fast,but so far cannot advance to NK levels ,by which I mean cannot increase protein any higher than that.Which means still playing around a lot with my numbers.
But I am still happy since some of my older clothes are finally fitting me.I also seem to have lost fat around my shoulders,bcoz the way they fit.
I am researching more about ketogenic diets for kids,as one of my kids may need it.So I was happy to see Cantins Ketogenic diet interview with Jimmy Moore.Anyone read the book?Any useful info there?
I am kind of stuck at 189 for 2 weeks now.Hopefully I want to be 180/185 by end of Feb.nothing interesting to post,going back to my researches.
Happy NKing everyone.

Congratulations on your loss! What level of protein are you currently eating. I stick to a pretty low amount myself to stay in ketosis. Some of us seem to do better that way:dunno:.

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnstrungHarp (Post 16233124)
There's something about the strictness of it that appeals to me, because apparently I don't handle the idea of moderation very well. I forget how long ago this was, but at one time I was trying some kind of weekly cycling thing, where I'd try to stick as close to zero carbs as possible on first several days of the week, coinciding with "glycogen depletion" workouts, then toward the end of the week do a "carb up" for about 48 hours, coinciding with a couple of heavy weight training workouts. Then the rest of the weekend was supposed to be a relatively normal diet, which was apparently considered "moderate" carbs or something. I don't really remember now. I just remember feeling miserable during the lower carb part of the week, obsessing/daydreaming about the coming "carb up" days, dreading when they were going to be over, not really understanding how to transition on Sundays from the carb up mentality back to a super-low-carb mentality.... it was no fun, and I don't think I had any results to speak of. All that switching around and keeping up with what I'm supposed to do on whatever day and worrying about whether my workout was the "right" one to do that day.... yuck. I'm much better with adherence when a particular food (or food group!) is off-limits at all times - not acceptable on one day and unacceptable on the next.
)

This describes me to a T! I like sticking to a plan with pretty strict guidelines, it frees my mind from obsessing and has calmed down binging urges that I used to have.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yvonnem2000 (Post 16233181)

My am ketones were 0.7. Yea! And it only took me two strips this time! I'm not going to test again for a week, I think, because my plan is to keep eating exactly what I've been eating for the next seven days and see if I experience weight-loss. Once I know this works, I want to keep it as a home base to return to as I experiment.

drjlocarb, I'm going to copy your stats listing.

Feb 1st stats
Wt 146.6
AM BK 0.7

Nutritional Goals:
Carbs up to 30g total
Protein up to 75g

Goal for Feb:
Stay in NK and see where it takes me.

Congrats on the ketone readings! It sounds like you have a great plan to test out what works (or doesn't).

Quote:

Originally Posted by shunsweets (Post 16233707)
Planning to start testing A.M. ketones if I ever manage to get 3 high fat days in a row in. I have my strips but my stomach doesn't seem to be tolerating very high fat right now:sick:. Good news is weight is stable as are blood sugers (though higher than I would like them:annoyed:).
Back to silently lurking.:)

You don't necessarily have to have super high-fat to get into ketosis, just low enough protein and carbs.

drjlocarb--it looks like you have a great plan, here's to success in February!

bjjcaveman--great ketone streak and weight loss! It really does take a while for the satiety to kick in. I'm glad it's finally happening.

punkin--I have both books, but seem to refer to the Performance book more. I don't know that you'd get much more from the Living book.

UnstrungHarp 02-02-2013 09:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NKSL55 (Post 16235282)
Remember, as I posted here, that LDL-C is calculated, not measured, in a standard lipid panel. The equation used to estimate LDL-C (the Friedewald equation) does not work well for people with very high, or very low triglycerides. There is another equation, sometimes called "the Iranian formula" that was designed to work over a larger range of trig concentrations. Using that your LDL-C is 135 -- still outside the range that appears to be allowed. But even the Iranian equation is based on a set of people who suffer from some sort of lipidemia, not people on low carb diets.

How long had it been since you ate your last meal before having the blood drawn for the lipid panel? (Including caloric stuff you drank -- like bullet proof coffee.)

--
Phillip

Hi - I think your question was for me, but I apologize if it was intended for bjjcaveman. :)

I have to be fasting (nothing but water) when I go to those clinical trial checkups. They require at least 9 hours, but I never eat right before going to bed, so I'm fasting quite a bit longer than that. Let's see... the night before, I probably ate around 7:30pm. My blood was drawn at about 10:30am the next morning.

Do you think my triglycerides would be considered "very low" - low enough to throw off the calculated LDL? My old triglyceride readings certainly were low... "out of range" like in the 20's and 30's. But my latest reading was 65, which is in range but on the low end.

Yesterday I read some fascinating stuff regarding very low carb eating, cholesterol and thyroid hormones. Not having had my thyroid tested yet, I can't say whether any of it applies to me. But I'm definitely going to request every kind of thyroid test there is, and if my ob/gyn won't do it for whatever reason, I'm going to find someone who will (or go to one of those places that let you have blood tests done without a doctor's order).

I saved some info in a text file from one of the websites I visited yesterday, and now I can't remember for sure which website it was. Since it mentions Paleo, I guess it was some paleo-centric website that was in my google search results regarding these keywords. I will paste it here because I am very anxious to hear what other science-type-people think about it! :)

---- pasted text starts below ----

We can now assemble a hypothesis linking low carb diets to high LDL. If one eats a glucose and/or protein restricted diet, T3 levels will fall to conserve glucose or protein. When T3 levels fall, LDL receptor expression is reduced. This prevents LDL from serving its fat transport function, but keeps the LDL particles in the blood where their immune function operates.

If LDL particles were being taken up from the blood via LDL receptors, they would have to be replaced a resource-expensive operation or immunity would suffer. Apparently evolution favors immunity, and gives up the lipid-transport functions of LDL in order to maintain immune functions during periods of food scarcity.

Suppose LDL receptors are so thoroughly suppressed by low T3 that the lipid transport function of LDL is abolished. What happens to LDL particles in the blood?

Immunity becomes their only function. They hang around in the blood until they meet up with (bacterial) toxins. This contact causes the LDL lipoprotein to be oxidized, after which the particle attaches to macrophage scavenger receptors and is cleared by immune cells.

So, if T3 hormone levels are very low and there is an infection, LDL particles will get oxidized and cleared by immune cells, and LDL levels will stay low. But if there is no infection and no toxins to oxidize LDL, and the diet creates no oxidative stress (ie low levels of omega-6 fats and fructose), then LDL particles may stay in the blood for long periods of time.

If LDL particles continue to be generated, which happens in part when eating fatty food, then LDL levels might increase.

So we might take high LDL on Paleo as a possible sign of two things:
A chronic state of glucose deficiency, leading to very low T3 levels and suppressed clearance of LDL particles by lipid transport pathways.
Absence of infections or oxidative stress which would clear LDL particles by immune pathways.

The solution? Eat more carbs, and address any remaining cause of hypothyroidism, such as iodine or selenium deficiency. T3 levels should then rise and LDL levels return to normal.

---- end pasted text ----

So...my understanding is that there is a possibility that my diet for the past three months COULD be the "culprit" for not only my high LDL but also my hypothyroidism-like symptoms. And that would mean there is nothing wrong with my thyroid... it's just doing what it's supposed to do in response to my eating less glucose and protein, and if I were to increase consumption of those things...my thyroid would increase production T3 again and LDL would go down. But until I get my tests done, I don't know if my T3 level is even low in the first place.

Yeesh...you guys are gonna kick me out if I don't quit making such long posts. :o

drjlocarb 02-02-2013 10:04 AM

Never apologize for sharing info, no matter how long the post may be. I would much rather read many long posts full of good information and learn things about the experiment we seem to be involved in. Many different source of info will hopefully help someone who is struggling to make this all work. Some of us have many, many pounds to lose. MANY.

I would be interested in finding the website for that info. Sometimes the comment section is full of very useful info too.

Thanks for the info.

UnstrungHarp 02-02-2013 10:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drjlocarb (Post 16235464)
Never apologize for sharing info, no matter how long the post may be. I would much rather read many long posts full of good information and learn things about the experiment we seem to be involved in. Many different source of info will hopefully help someone who is struggling to make this all work. Some of us have many, many pounds to lose. MANY.

I would be interested in finding the website for that info. Sometimes the comment section is full of very useful info too.

Thanks for the info.

I am happy to hear that the information is interesting and/or useful to others! I found the website just now. I know I can't link to it here, but if you google "High LDL on Paleo Revisited" it should be the top hit. Now that I've found it again, I'm going to re-read it, check out the links to other related articles, and browse through the comments.

shelley 02-02-2013 10:57 AM

Lindsay...great post -- I agree 100% with drjlocarb on what she said above.

My interpretation and understanding of the thyroid, and especially T3 is that FT3 blood test readings come from what the body has for use for energy right now. It is a *hormone*. The body makes T3 from converting T4. It's not something that comes from eating a particular food, although I do believe fat does help with the balancing of hormones a bit. I have had high cholesterol readings for decades...when eating no red meat and nonfat, and now with the NK eating...always high. Nothing has changed with a change in diet. I'm optimized with my thyroid (I go to the "no doc required" lab for my tests and have for several years!).

I"m not sure that I am in full agreement with that article due the fact that thyroid is a *hormone* and to be raised, it needs to have hormones added. But I'm NOT a doctor. I just dabble in the endocrine system for my own personal experience and so this is just another viewpoint.

NKSL55 02-02-2013 10:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnstrungHarp (Post 16235378)
Hi - I think your question was for me, but I apologize if it was intended for bjjcaveman. :)

I have to be fasting (nothing but water) when I go to those clinical trial checkups. They require at least 9 hours, but I never eat right before going to bed, so I'm fasting quite a bit longer than that. Let's see... the night before, I probably ate around 7:30pm. My blood was drawn at about 10:30am the next morning.

Do you think my triglycerides would be considered "very low" - low enough to throw off the calculated LDL? My old triglyceride readings certainly were low... "out of range" like in the 20's and 30's. But my latest reading was 65, which is in range but on the low end.

Yes that question was meant for you.
We don't even know if your LDL-C is high. The actual tests done for a standard lipid panel are TC, HDL-C and Trigs. If we posit that there are no significant numbers of IDLs or chylomicrons, then all the non-HDL-C is split between LDL and VLDL particles. The amount of cholesterol in the VLDL particles is presumed to be 1/5th the amount of trigs. (That is normal for people on a SAD diet, who do not have very high trigs-->200, I think). For you what is normal? Who knows? Since your trig concentration is 1/2 that of someone on a SAD, it could be that you are carrying 2-3x as much cholesterol in your VLDL particles as they are. That would mean that your LDL-C level might be "normal".
There are direct assays of LDL-C. You could get one of those tests, if it might convince the study that your "high" cholesterol was okay because not much of it was in LDL particles.

Was your next test for the study going to be soon? If I recall correctly the spike in cholesterol concentration that some people experience on high fat diets was transient. Your cholesterol may have, or might in the future, drop into the normal range.

--
Phillip

UnstrungHarp 02-02-2013 11:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shelley (Post 16235576)
Lindsay...great post -- I agree 100% with drjlocarb on what she said above.

My interpretation and understanding of the thyroid, and especially T3 is that FT3 blood test readings come from what the body has for use for energy right now. It is a *hormone*. The body makes T3 from converting T4. It's not something that comes from eating a particular food, although I do believe fat does help with the balancing of hormones a bit. I have had high cholesterol readings for decades...when eating no red meat and nonfat, and now with the NK eating...always high. Nothing has changed with a change in diet. I'm optimized with my thyroid (I go to the "no doc required" lab for my tests and have for several years!).

I"m not sure that I am in full agreement with that article due the fact that thyroid is a *hormone* and to be raised, it needs to have hormones added. But I'm NOT a doctor. I just dabble in the endocrine system for my own personal experience and so this is just another viewpoint.

I think (as a total layman who loves to read about science), the author didn't mean that T3 is coming or not coming from a particular food. He said, "If one eats a glucose and/or protein restricted diet, T3 levels will fall to conserve glucose or protein. When T3 levels fall, LDL receptor expression is reduced." I took that to mean that your thyroid is intentionally responding to your diet by producing less T4 (that gets converted to T3), or maybe it's that conversion to T3 itself that gets slowed down somehow. I don't have a full understanding of why eating a low glucose and/or protein diet would make the thyroid think, "Hmm, we must need less T3!" But once the T3 is lowered, I understand the rest of the cascade of reactions that he describes and why it would result in high LDL and other negative consequences.

All of this seems to be a self-regulating process that is working the way it's "supposed" to, in the sense of survival/maintaining immunity...but it certainly doesn't sound optimal for someone who is trying to lose body fat as well as maintain a (technically) good cholesterol level to keep Pfizer happy. :)

UnstrungHarp 02-02-2013 11:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NKSL55 (Post 16235578)
Yes that question was meant for you.
We don't even know if your LDL-C is high. The actual tests done for a standard lipid panel are TC, HDL-C and Trigs. If we posit that there are no significant numbers of IDLs or chylomicrons, then all the non-HDL-C is split between LDL and VLDL particles. The amount of cholesterol in the VLDL particles is presumed to be 1/5th the amount of trigs. (That is normal for people on a SAD diet, who do not have very high trigs-->200, I think). For you what is normal? Who knows? Since your trig concentration is 1/2 that of someone on a SAD, it could be that you are carrying 2-3x as much cholesterol in your VLDL particles as they are. That would mean that your LDL-C level might be "normal".
There are direct assays of LDL-C. You could get one of those tests, if it might convince the study that your "high" cholesterol was okay because not much of it was in LDL particles.

Was your next test for the study going to be soon? If I recall correctly the spike in cholesterol concentration that some people experience on high fat diets was transient. Your cholesterol may have, or might in the future, drop into the normal range.

--
Phillip

Thanks for the info. If I thought that the study..."people" (?) would be open to different methods of testing or interpreting the results, I'd certainly bring it up. I guess it depends on the results of my next test, which isn't until April 29. If my readings are still flagged as abnormal, then I'll definitely talk to them about other testing. But, by April 29, I should have time to get my thyroid test results back and make some changes in response to that, if necessary.

Next week, if I find out that my T3 is low, I'm going to consider upping my daily carbs to... some minimum I have yet to determine! I've been so scared of carbs for so long, I can't even imagine deliberately adding some back in for "better" health. I suppose if it comes solely from higher-carb veggies and fruits, I might be able to accept it. :laugh:

clackley 02-03-2013 07:28 AM

Lindsay, it seems that the posted text may have been from blogger Paul Jaminet of the perfect health diet.?

As Phillip has pointed out, we need to be a bit cautious with ranges and standards etc. when it comes to so much in our health care system because they are all framed within a carby woe and I do think it makes a pretty big difference particularly when considering that we are ketogenic.

My #'s for today are 2.1 ketones and 4.8 b.g.. My b.g levels have been rising over the past weeks and was happy to see this lower one today. It is interesting that there appears to be some correlation between the 2 because my ketones had been falling at a similiar rate that my b.g. was rising. I am not diabetic so this is weird.

dee 02-03-2013 10:05 AM

Hello all, I am coming out of lurker mode to ask a question. I have read Gary Taubes book and it made a lot of sense to me and I am currently gathering and reading as much as I can. My question is; if one's cholesterol levels elevate on this diet (LDL or HDL whichever one is supposed to lower?) won't your doctor investigate as to why?? I'm sure most doctors would be horrified at the level of fat that is consumed on this diet? Or are more doctors open minded than mine is? Mine figures weight watchers is the only way to go (I only lose a couple of lbs and then I maintain....I've tried 3 different times in my life-same results each time!) please don't take this as criticism of the diet because it is not. Just a question that I can't find the answer to no matter where I look. I am off to get Dr Phinney's book. If I can't find it, I'll order it or download it if i have to but I'd prefer the actual hard copy. Anyone have any issues with their doc over the elevated cholesterol levels?

clackley 02-03-2013 11:04 AM

Hello Dee. :hiya:

My doctor is old school in believing calories in/calories out and was skeptical about my woe. He saw me every 3 months waiting for the big 'event' to happen which turned out to be lost a bunch of weight, completely normalized my b.p. (no meds for years now) and he said that my lipid panel was 'fantastic' at my last visit. I don't give much sway to lipid panels aside from triglycerides but what ever... he always asks what I am doing and I tell him - Atkins. He is not given to high praise or any show of enthusiasm so the little smile he gives me tells me he is impressed.

In the end, he is my consultant and if he doesn't think this is a good woe, he can tell me and tell me why and I will consider it but it is my decision of how to handle my health.

mom2zeke 02-03-2013 12:53 PM

My thoughts on the thyroid issue:

From what I understand, all weight-loss results in a lowering of one's thyroid hormones (it's part of the hormone cascade that happens when you lose weight).

I know exactly when my thyroid went wonky, it was in my mid-20s and I was definitely not eating LC at the time, but it may have been triggered by doing NutriSystem:dunno:. After that time, even when I was eating plenty of carbs and calories I continued to have all of the hypo symptoms (but couldn't get a correct diagnosis).

I think that it's possible that eating LC might contribute to lower thyroid hormones or poor T4 to T3 conversion. But is LC worse than any other reducing diet? I don't know that there is any conclusive evidence.

I've also told every doctor that I've seen about my weight-loss and not one of them thought that it was a contributing factor to my thyroid issues. My take on that is that doctors have no idea what happens when you lose weight because there are so few long-term weight maintainers to study.

For me, LC has been the only way that I've been able to lose and maintain. It may be that I have to take a bit more thyroid hormone than I would otherwise because of my WOE, but I'll take that over being 112 pounds heavier any day:).

dee 02-03-2013 07:57 PM

@Kristn, wow you have lost a lot of weight. Impressive! Can I ask how long you have been maintaining?


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