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clackley 01-24-2013 06:11 AM

Fat
 
The amount of protein has been pretty well discussed and carbs are a given (vlc) but I really haven't seen any discussion on the amount of dietary fat that is appropriate for weight loss.

Let's say a person has a good level of ketosis established via blood testing and is still not losing. Dr. Phinney has been recorded as saying that in that case, dietary fat should be lowered. So what would be the level one should shoot for?

sharkbait 01-24-2013 07:19 AM

1st, a warning... i'm quite new to low carb and ketosis so i might be talking rubbish and will not be offended if someone corrects me. That said, my understanding of this is that if your weight loss has stalled, you should slowly reduce your fat intake while still keeping your percentages the same... ie you decrease your protein as well. there is no one size fits all and everyone is different...

svenskamae 01-24-2013 08:35 AM

I certainly don't think that calories in, calories out is the whole or even the main issue, but when setting my fat intake, I'd do the following:
1) Pick the amount of healthy (net) carbs to eat (say, under 20)
2) Pick the moderate amount of protein to eat (best guess of amount required to maintain lean body mass)
3) See how many calories 1 + 2 add up to. Set the calorie level I wanted to follow, and get there by making fat be the rest of my intake.

That's what I'm doing on NK plus JUDDD, anyway, but JUDDD is all about cycling calories (at least 1000 calorie difference between down days and up days). So my perspective is certainly influenced by the JUDDD part of my plan. My reading of Volek and Phinney is different from Sharkbait's suggestion: that the carb and protein levels should be set by grams, not percentages, and the fat grams can be dialed up or down to get to (or under) a calorie level after that.

Annabel Lee 01-24-2013 04:38 PM

I am confused almost to the point of tears.
Lower carbs...lower protein.....increase fat...still stalled.
Lower fat?......I don't know what to eat at this point!
I have been going up and down the same 5 pounds for the last 7 months.:stars:

drjlocarb 01-24-2013 06:41 PM

Annabel, are you testing blood ketones?

Annabel Lee 01-24-2013 08:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drjlocarb (Post 16217700)
Annabel, are you testing blood ketones?

No, I have not done that yet because I did not want to spend the money.
Figured that through trial and error I could work it out. Clearly that is not working. I guess I am going to have to start testing. Have you found testing helpful?

clackley 01-25-2013 05:48 AM

Annabel Lee, I just wanted to let you know that you are not alone with your struggle. Lots of the posters on N.K. have experienced very long stalls.

I think it is useful to test but not necessarily if you are willing to adjust your macros and stick with it for several wks.. I think that is what is required to be sure you are in nutritional ketosis.

drjlocarb 01-25-2013 05:59 AM

Yes, I found testing helpful. I have been stalled for over 2 years. Yes, years.

I thought I was in ketosis and when I tested, I was not even close to NK blood levels. I had to start tracking and found my diet was LC, high protein, and mod fat.

Annabel Lee 01-25-2013 07:39 AM

Thanks guys!
I have calmed down this morning.
It is so nice to know that I am not alone.
I am very sorry for anyone in this position!
Other times that I have lost a tremendous amount of weight I have never been able to maintain. This is the first time in my life that when I stopped losing I did not gain it all back. So I guess that is good.

I think that I am going to give it an other "really good" 4 weeks and if I don't see any loss I am going to look into testing.
I was rereading some of Taubes last night and he kept emphasizing how this can take a lot more time for women of a "certain age".
So with renewed patients and determination I continue on.
Thanks again for your support!

clackley 01-25-2013 12:27 PM

Good plan Annabel!!

MerryKate 01-25-2013 11:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Annabel Lee (Post 16218514)
Other times that I have lost a tremendous amount of weight I have never been able to maintain. This is the first time in my life that when I stopped losing I did not gain it all back. So I guess that is good.

That's beyond good - that's great! If I'm reading your stats right, you've lost nearly 90 lbs - that's amazing! Don't lose sight of that in your desire to lose more. Maintenance is one of the hardest things about weight loss, but you're doing it. Now you just need to find the right macros for you to start losing again.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Annabel Lee (Post 16218514)
I think that I am going to give it an other "really good" 4 weeks and if I don't see any loss I am going to look into testing.

Sounds like a good plan. It can take some bodies quite a while (months, even :p) to switch into fat-burning mode, even on a ketogenic diet like NK. So patience is key. But if you're not already doing so, I'd encourage you to use a tape measure and go by your measurements rather than the scale. Weight can fluctuate by 5 lbs. in a day, which means the scale is really fickle. If your clothes start feeling looser, you're making progress.

Annabel Lee 01-26-2013 12:04 AM

Thank you for the encouragement MerryKate.
The first 70 pounds were relatively easy for me to lose but the last 20 were so very difficult!

I have noticed my jeans getting a little looser.
I have not pulled out the old tape measure in a while, so I will do that!
Thanks for reminding me of that!

MarieD 01-26-2013 10:38 AM

I don't test blood for ketones. I can tell when I'm in ketosis by the way I feel. I notice when I'm feeling really good - no hunger or cravings, losing weight, good mood - the urine strips stop showing color (unless I've just had a slug of MCT oil). I guess that means I'm using the ketones up. I wasn't able to lose weight until I clamped down on protein portions and also set a calorie limit - hey, I'm 58 so it's not as easy as it used to be. I eat as much fat as I can to get to my calorie limit. It's working well for me at about 2lbs / week. I guess if (when) I stall I'll cut back the fat some, tho I wouldn't want calories to get too low. BTW I weigh and measure all my food - its been key.

clackley 01-26-2013 10:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarieD (Post 16220842)
I don't test blood for ketones. I can tell when I'm in ketosis by the way I feel. I notice when I'm feeling really good - no hunger or cravings, losing weight, good mood - the urine strips stop showing color (unless I've just had a slug of MCT oil). I guess that means I'm using the ketones up. I wasn't able to lose weight until I clamped down on protein portions and also set a calorie limit - hey, I'm 58 so it's not as easy as it used to be. I eat as much fat as I can to get to my calorie limit. It's working well for me at about 2lbs / week. I guess if (when) I stall I'll cut back the fat some, tho I wouldn't want calories to get too low. BTW I weigh and measure all my food - its been key.

Thank you for your post. I wonder if you would be willing to share how much protein and fat you are consuming at the moment to lose?

I do weigh and measure everything and have been for quite some time so that is not an issue for me. I have yet to find the sweet spot for loss. :cry:

unna 01-27-2013 03:29 AM

Clackley, What types of exercises are you doing?

clackley 01-27-2013 06:34 AM

I am fairly sedentary. I purposefully walk at least a couple of kilometers every day.

Michael J 01-27-2013 06:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Annabel Lee (Post 16217494)
I am confused almost to the point of tears.
Lower carbs...lower protein.....increase fat...still stalled.
Lower fat?......I don't know what to eat at this point!
I have been going up and down the same 5 pounds for the last 7 months.:stars:

Annabel: I feel your pain. I've been gaining and losing the same 10 lbs for the past 6 months, and growing increasingly desperate. Finally, it looks like things started moving again, but it's only been a few days. We'll see what happens after another 7 days.

At any rate, here's what I recall from Phinney: set your protein based on your lean body mass. In Phinney and Volek's, "The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Living", the author's suggest that current guidelines for protein intake are .8g/day per kilogram of lean body mass, minimum (but this can vary based on your level of activity, pregnancy, if you are still growing, etc....). That's the amount of protein you should consume to preserve muscle mass.

Set your carbs to 20g/day or less (that's the approach I take).

Let fat make up the rest and use satiety as an indicator of consumption.

If you are stalled, you may want to try cutting calories a bit. To do this, you'd typically dial back your fat, as this will reduce your calories. But if you are already at the protein level you need to be to preserve muscle mass, you shouldn't have much room to dial back there. And carbs...if you have an upper limit of 20, there's not a lot to reduce there.

On the flip side, many people wind up overconsuming protein on keto. Overconsumption in this case means, "eating more than is necessary to preserve muscle mass". The result of this is that excess protein adds calories (may or may not be significant) and gets converted into glucose in the liver via gluconeogenesis (may cause high blood glucose, insulin response, etc...). This can stall people out/slow weight loss/prevent "nutritional ketosis", etc...

Most of all, hang in there... stalls suck.

Annabel Lee 01-29-2013 12:51 PM

Michael J- thanks for you support!
I am glad things have started moving for you and I do hope it continues!

I do believe that I will look into lowering cals a little.
It somehow feels "disloyal", to Low Carb WOE, to have to take a look at my calories but that may be just what I need to do.
Thanks again!

clackley 01-29-2013 01:09 PM

Heather, forgive me if I am out of line on this but I think it is not disloyal in any way to be aware of calories. It is a measure of sorts and is another piece of information. I think that the important thing to remember that it is not 'all about calories' at all but they do count. Of course, calories are not all equal and it is important not to get into the diet mentality and think they are the ultimate deciding factor - they are not.

reddarin 01-29-2013 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael J (Post 16222115)
At any rate, here's what I recall from Phinney: set your protein based on your lean body mass. In Phinney and Volek's, "The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Living", the author's suggest that current guidelines for protein intake are .8g/day per kilogram of lean body mass, minimum (but this can vary based on your level of activity, pregnancy, if you are still growing, etc....). That's the amount of protein you should consume to preserve muscle mass.

This is actually from the Performance book isn't it?

In the Living book the formula for calculating protein is 1.5-2.0 per kg reference weight. (ideal_weight/2.2)*1.5 or (ideal_weight/2.2)*2.0

:)

Annabel Lee 01-29-2013 05:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by clackley (Post 16227216)
Heather, forgive me if I am out of line on this but I think it is not disloyal in any way to be aware of calories. It is a measure of sorts and is another piece of information. I think that the important thing to remember that it is not 'all about calories' at all but they do count. Of course, calories are not all equal and it is important not to get into the diet mentality and think they are the ultimate deciding factor - they are not.

No, Cathy you are in no way out of line.
I know you are correct, it is not all about the calories and yet I must take them into consideration. I guess the trick for me is to adjust my WOE when what was working so well stops.

clackley 01-29-2013 05:45 PM

Yes, I wish I had the answer why that happens and so abruptly! If it were simply calories - it would be simple but that does not appear to be it for me..... I hope your situation turns out to be an easy tweak!

MarieD 01-29-2013 07:01 PM

I don't starve, that's for sure - about 1500 - 1700 calories a day. I cap my protein grams at 80, carbs at under 50 (from nonstarchy veggies and nuts only) and fill the rest of my calorie allotment with fat - MCT or coconut oil, liver pate, fish oil, bacon, avocados, butter are some of my favorites, weighed and measured. I keep a bottle of liquid coconut oil in my desk and when I get a tinge of hunger in the late afternoon, I take a small slug, and it really dampens my hunger at dinnertime. As you said, go with what has worked for you before, tweaking to be as healthy as possible. That's what I did. I've also found that mixing in shirataki noodles with stir fries for my lunchbox has really helped - I'm a volume eater, and the noodles are really filling (and keep me regular) - I also love kelp noodles, and some other very low carb noodles I found at my Asian grocer. I only eat foods I love, which really keeps me on track and enthused. I hope this helps!

Sting 01-31-2013 05:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by clackley (Post 16216158)
The amount of protein has been pretty well discussed and carbs are a given (vlc) but I really haven't seen any discussion on the amount of dietary fat that is appropriate for weight loss.

Let's say a person has a good level of ketosis established via blood testing and is still not losing. Dr. Phinney has been recorded as saying that in that case, dietary fat should be lowered. So what would be the level one should shoot for?

If you are overweight try not going overboard on the Fat from what i have gathered (Reading and Learning) while you have excess fat your body will first burn the fat you intake before it burns the fat on you even if you are in ketosis.

sharkbait 02-08-2013 09:04 AM

are you doing any training at all. When i went through my last 'stall' and checked my bfp and although my weight had remained fairly stable, my bfp had dropped and i had gained quite a bit of lean muscle... In fact when people ask me what my goal weight is, I tell 15% bfp. If I hit that, I don't care what my weight is.

clackley 02-08-2013 10:03 AM

Thank you all for your thoughtful responses. I guess I was hoping to find out what others thought was a good amount of fat for weight loss. Given that we are all pretty different, I guess the question doesn't really make sense.

FYI for some of the questions. No I am not building muscle - just trying to maintain what I have. I also have been at this game for a while now and have done the appropriate research. I have never come across something that gives a clue about the actual amount of fat that is appropriate although fat does appear to fall where it may when the other 2 macros are being controlled. Problem is that calories seem to be pretty low.... I don't know.....?

sharkbait 02-08-2013 10:45 AM

think of it like this... you are training your body to burn fat, so if your weight was stable you would need x amount of calories a day depending on your body size and activity (this would be at whatever your best ratio is - for me 80/15/5) However, if you want to lose weight, you want your body to use your own fat for energy, not fat you eat so you need to restrict your total calories but still keep your ratio the same.

clackley 02-08-2013 10:49 AM

Thanks, I appreciate your response but I am not a fan of calorie/in, calorie/out.

sharkbait 02-08-2013 10:55 AM

the concept is sound if you are on a low carb diet. it's only if your carbs are high or even moderate and causing your insulin to spike that it doesn't work. as your insulin prevents fat burning...

NKSL55 02-08-2013 10:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by clackley (Post 16248015)
Thanks, I appreciate your response but I am not a fan of calorie/in, calorie/out.

I think the point (and error) of "calorie in calorie out" is that different macros can be reduced to the number of calories they generate when they are burned in a bomb calorimeter.

So saying you will burn more of your own fat if you reduce your dietary fat isn't really the same thing -- especially since we are presuming an NK framework.

That doesn't mean it will actually work, or that your body would not burn more of its own fat with a higher dietary fat intake. But it is one option you could test out.

Usually I think it is recommended that you try eliminating specific foods that might be triggering your body to retain fat. Dairy and artificial sweeteners are commonly recommended as foods to drop if you are stalled.

--
Phillip


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