Low Carb Friends  
Netrition.com - Tools - Reviews - Faces - Recipes - Home


Go Back   Low Carb Friends > Eating and Exercise Plans > Weight Loss Plans > Nutritional Ketosis / High Fat, Low Carb
Register FAQ Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 01-22-2013, 06:58 AM   #1
Junior LCF Member
 
sharkbait's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: London
Posts: 26
Gallery: sharkbait
WOE: Ketonic
Start Date: Jan 2013
Ketosis and endurance... for dummies

Hi, I'm trying to get keto-adapted but although there are lots of 'scraps' on the web, there doesn't seem to be any definitive guide. What would you recommend? I'm a swimmer training for a English Channel Relay swim so I'm doing 1-2 hours of swimming a day. This will be increasing to 3 in the next 2 months so would like to get this right before then. Any help would be appreciated.
sharkbait is offline   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old 01-22-2013, 11:27 AM   #2
Blabbermouth!!!
 
reddarin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Texas
Posts: 5,460
Gallery: reddarin
Stats: 6' 47y/o 265/193/170
WOE: NK
Start Date: Aug 13, 2011
Get 'The Art And Science Of Low Carb Performance' by Phinney/Volek. You can get the e-book immediately but the physical book is much better for studying.

I haven't read it but it is the companion book to 'The Art And Science Of Low Carb Living' and it was written for athletes and exercise enthusiast.
reddarin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2013, 11:35 AM   #3
Senior LCF Member
 
unna's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Germany
Posts: 293
Gallery: unna
Stats: 230/155-160/tone
WOE: Primal LCHF
Start Date: January 2012
How many hours will you be swimming? The aspect that concerns me somewhat about this particular type of endurance sport is that you will be spending an extensive amount of time in cold water, which usually requires one to have more fat to protect the organs.

I did see a German documentary on something similar. It followed a man who was training to swim across the English Channel. He went to professional Dutch swimming trainers for guidance. They told him he absolutely had to gain weight, or he would not make it. Body fat is absolutely essential for this type of endurance sport.

Anyway - interesting question. I'd be interested to hear more about why you have chosen a keto-diet before such a big event.
unna is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2013, 12:01 PM   #4
Senior LCF Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Canada
Posts: 914
Gallery: Punkin
Stats: 160/95/100
WOE: NK or LC
Quote:
Originally Posted by sharkbait View Post
Hi, I'm trying to get keto-adapted but although there are lots of 'scraps' on the web, there doesn't seem to be any definitive guide. What would you recommend? I'm a swimmer training for a English Channel Relay swim so I'm doing 1-2 hours of swimming a day. This will be increasing to 3 in the next 2 months so would like to get this right before then. Any help would be appreciated.
What is your reason for becoming keto-adapted?
Punkin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2013, 01:50 AM   #5
Junior LCF Member
 
sharkbait's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: London
Posts: 26
Gallery: sharkbait
WOE: Ketonic
Start Date: Jan 2013
thanks for the replies... firstly, i would like to emphasize that I'm doing a relay, not a full channel swim. There are 6 of us swimming in hourly legs until we finish. Therefore body fat isn't as high a factor as with a solo swim.

secondly, I'm at 30% BFP at the moment, down from the 40% high I had in July but still a way to go to my 15% goal. Most solo swimmers are sitting around 7-10 % and that is why they are normally told to pick up some fat (the famous Guinness diet)

So I want to go keto to lose weight but I also think it helps in in endurance events. I know many iron-man athletes go keto (although many won't admit it as it gives them such an advantage). I follow Peter Attia's blog and he did the Catalina swim on a keto diet and has done quite a few marathons (10km) in this state.

I actually have the book 'The Art And Science Of Low Carb Performance' on my phone which I bought right at the beginning of my journey... perhaps i need to re-read it now that I understand low carb a bit better although i did find it quite technical.

thanks again for all the replies!
sharkbait is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2013, 03:53 AM   #6
Senior LCF Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Canada
Posts: 914
Gallery: Punkin
Stats: 160/95/100
WOE: NK or LC
I am a swimmer myself and I found the induction period to be really difficult. You'll find that your performance will plummet. But if you need to lose a lot of weight, it will help you do that. So for you, it is probably good to do it.

Ironman athletes race in a ketogenic state? Are you sure about that? Maybe to complete an ironman, but I don't think the pros do this. You need to fuel your body with carbs if you are racing. Competitive athletes are more likely doing CKDs or TKDs as opposed to SKDs. Do you ever watch races on TV? Are they spitting out their performance drinks and gels? I am just curious. From what I understand ketosis is for losing fat, but not for performing. When you do your race you will probably have to come out of ketosis to perform well.
Punkin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2013, 04:30 AM   #7
Junior LCF Member
 
sharkbait's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: London
Posts: 26
Gallery: sharkbait
WOE: Ketonic
Start Date: Jan 2013
Have a read of this blog by Peter Attia. He believes that keto state has definite benefits for endurance athletes. I have seen a video by Prof Tim Noakes, a leading sports scientist, who has claimed that at least a few of the elite ironman athletes are on low-carb diets. I will try find the video on youtube and post it. I think with the invention of superstarch(a new supplement of carbs that give the fuel but don't spike your insulin levels) we will get more endurance athletes following this. I know the winner of the London 2012 marathon used superstarch but I don't know what his diet was...

How a low carb diet affected my athletic performance (Part 4) « The Eating Academy | Peter Attia, M.D. The Eating Academy | Peter Attia, M.D.
sharkbait is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2013, 10:51 AM   #8
Senior LCF Member
 
unna's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Germany
Posts: 293
Gallery: unna
Stats: 230/155-160/tone
WOE: Primal LCHF
Start Date: January 2012
How long have you been trying to get keto-adapted? How have your swim practices been going?
unna is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2013, 12:51 PM   #9
Senior LCF Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Canada
Posts: 914
Gallery: Punkin
Stats: 160/95/100
WOE: NK or LC
Quote:
Originally Posted by sharkbait View Post
Have a read of this blog by Peter Attia. He believes that keto state has definite benefits for endurance athletes. I have seen a video by Prof Tim Noakes, a leading sports scientist, who has claimed that at least a few of the elite ironman athletes are on low-carb diets. I will try find the video on youtube and post it. I think with the invention of superstarch(a new supplement of carbs that give the fuel but don't spike your insulin levels) we will get more endurance athletes following this. I know the winner of the London 2012 marathon used superstarch but I don't know what his diet was...

How a low carb diet affected my athletic performance (Part 4) « The Eating Academy | Peter Attia, M.D. The Eating Academy | Peter Attia, M.D.
I've read Peter's blog and about superstarch. Although it is true that many of them probably follow a low carb diet I think it is for weight control so they don't gain too much weight in the off season. When they race I believe they use carbs at least to some extent. You can do it in two ways, using a targeted ketogenic diet where you consume carbs before the workout, although that doesn't sound very effective, because it is your muscles that need the fuel. Or a cyclic ketogenic diet. This is where you carb load before your race. Even Peter admits that his "top end" power is lower. I think he uses the superstarch to get through his longer workouts when his muscles are depleted in their glycogen stores. I am just curious who these elite ironman athletes are, and are they spitting out their carb drinks while they are racing? Because from what I understand they need to consume at least some carbs in longer events once their glycogen stores are depleted which will definitely happen on longer races, I don't think you can race fast just burning fatty acids, if your competitors are fueling with at least some carbs. It is the carbs that gives you the top end power. At least that is what Peter states in his blog.
Punkin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2013, 12:50 AM   #10
Junior LCF Member
 
sharkbait's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: London
Posts: 26
Gallery: sharkbait
WOE: Ketonic
Start Date: Jan 2013
definately needs some more research on my side. I was quoting from a video I had seen where he names a ftop female athlete that has been low carb from the 90's. I will try find the vid.
sharkbait is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2013, 04:05 AM   #11
Senior LCF Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Canada
Posts: 914
Gallery: Punkin
Stats: 160/95/100
WOE: NK or LC
Yeah, if you can find the video that would great, post the link. In competitive swimming its different maybe. But I am curious about the IM athletes who win Kona. We should watch to see if there are taking in their sponsors carb sources during the race. Maybe not, if there being handed a generic bottle by their coaches. If that is the case, then they are really misleading the public. Nothing surprizes me anymore though, obviously they aren't going to publish their trade secrets to the masses.
Punkin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2013, 07:01 AM   #12
Junior LCF Member
 
sharkbait's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: London
Posts: 26
Gallery: sharkbait
WOE: Ketonic
Start Date: Jan 2013
true true... slightly off topic... does anyone know the best place to buy ketone test strips? I'm currently using freestyle optium strips but they are quite expensive in the UK, around £3 per strip. (Apologies if I'm not allowed to ask this here)
sharkbait is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2013, 07:24 AM   #13
Blabbermouth!!!
 
reddarin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Texas
Posts: 5,460
Gallery: reddarin
Stats: 6' 47y/o 265/193/170
WOE: NK
Start Date: Aug 13, 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by sharkbait View Post
true true... slightly off topic... does anyone know the best place to buy ketone test strips? I'm currently using freestyle optium strips but they are quite expensive in the UK, around £3 per strip. (Apologies if I'm not allowed to ask this here)
Post your question in the January Nutritional Ketosis...Are you in the zone? thread. There are a lot of those folks that use the test strips I think.
reddarin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2013, 07:30 PM   #14
Senior LCF Member
 
NKSL55's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: USA
Posts: 173
Gallery: NKSL55
Stats: 205/185/175
WOE: General LC then NK
Start Date: Feb 2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by Punkin View Post
I've read Peter's blog and about superstarch. Although it is true that many of them probably follow a low carb diet I think it is for weight control so they don't gain too much weight in the off season. When they race I believe they use carbs at least to some extent. You can do it in two ways, using a targeted ketogenic diet where you consume carbs before the workout, although that doesn't sound very effective, because it is your muscles that need the fuel. Or a cyclic ketogenic diet. This is where you carb load before your race. Even Peter admits that his "top end" power is lower. I think he uses the superstarch to get through his longer workouts when his muscles are depleted in their glycogen stores. I am just curious who these elite ironman athletes are, and are they spitting out their carb drinks while they are racing? Because from what I understand they need to consume at least some carbs in longer events once their glycogen stores are depleted which will definitely happen on longer races, I don't think you can race fast just burning fatty acids, if your competitors are fueling with at least some carbs. It is the carbs that gives you the top end power. At least that is what Peter states in his blog.
Have you read Attia's blog -- the entry that Sharkbait links to? There was only a single aspect of Attia's performance that was not improved by being in ketosis when he had them tested. Later, in one of the comment threads he mention that even that aspect was beginning to improve. Possibly because even after the many months he had been in ketosis his body was still adapting.

If you carb load with pretty much anything other than Superstarch, you would fall out of ketosis and not have very good access to your fat stores. Why would you do that?

--
Phillip
NKSL55 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2013, 01:00 AM   #15
Senior LCF Member
 
Yvonnem2000's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: San Francisco Bay Area
Posts: 461
Gallery: Yvonnem2000
Stats: 148.6/151/135
WOE: Atkins Induction + veggies
Start Date: April 2012
I'm no expert on this subject, but I have my own experiences with sprint triathlons last summer after starting low-carb in April. I was able to finish all three sprints, but I never felt strong. I had to take my training run speed down. I was not fast before low-carb, but I got slower and just felt sluggish. Finally in August I started to feel normal, and now I can perform physically as well as I ever did, I think. If I recall, Peter said it took months for him to adapt. In fact, that was what kept me going and gave me hope that eventually I'd feel normal again.

Maybe your experience will be more smooth than mine. I love your name and avatar! Good luck on your training and event. Very cool endeavor.
Yvonnem2000 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2013, 10:08 PM   #16
Junior LCF Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 19
Gallery: dawnth1
I had the same question. Look up Keto calculator on internet. Plug in info and gives you a definitive amount of calories, protein, etc, based on exercise and body type. Adjust monthly as needed.
dawnth1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2013, 08:46 AM   #17
Junior LCF Member
 
sharkbait's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: London
Posts: 26
Gallery: sharkbait
WOE: Ketonic
Start Date: Jan 2013
so a little update... I've managed to get a blood monitor and keto strips. My ketone level was 1.7 today and my glucose 4.8. I have a ridiculous amount of energy when i'm swimming although I do notice that it takes me quite a while to warm up (20-30min). For that 1st period, i feel really sluggish and a bit tired and then suddenly it's like a switch is flicked and i feel like a tuna... not sure how mental this is... lesson for me, i guess is that if i am doing any time time trials, i need at least 800-1000m warm up before do the time run. next week i'm doing a timed 2.5km and i'm definately going to try this 1st.
sharkbait is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2013, 05:42 AM   #18
Junior LCF Member
 
sharkbait's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: London
Posts: 26
Gallery: sharkbait
WOE: Ketonic
Start Date: Jan 2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by Punkin View Post
Yeah, if you can find the video that would great, post the link. In competitive swimming its different maybe. But I am curious about the IM athletes who win Kona. We should watch to see if there are taking in their sponsors carb sources during the race. Maybe not, if there being handed a generic bottle by their coaches. If that is the case, then they are really misleading the public. Nothing surprizes me anymore though, obviously they aren't going to publish their trade secrets to the masses.
hi, i found the link: Tim Noakes
sharkbait is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2013, 07:19 AM   #19
Junior LCF Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: UK
Posts: 2
Gallery: fboab
Stats: 198/190/150
Start Date: Jan 2013
I'm also finding it takes me a looong time to warm up. 30 minutes, probably.
fboab is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2013, 02:11 AM   #20
Junior LCF Member
 
sharkbait's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: London
Posts: 26
Gallery: sharkbait
WOE: Ketonic
Start Date: Jan 2013
i didn't do my time trial but for my last masters session, i got to the pool early and did a hard 400m warm-up... what a difference it made to my session... i was able to really power and although i did cramp a little towards the end, it was a much better quality session... i think my salt/potassium is ok so i'm a bit baffled by the cramping... oh well....
sharkbait is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-2013, 12:51 PM   #21
Senior LCF Member
 
angelface11's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Washington
Posts: 221
Gallery: angelface11
Stats: 233/182.0/140 "42 more pounds to lose
WOE: started with HCG and lost 23lbs, now doing Atkins
Start Date: 03/05/2012
angelface11 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2013, 09:05 PM   #22
Senior LCF Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 329
Gallery: Liz1959
I have a friend who runs marathons. I'm trying to get her to look into the science of keto-adaptation. It seems to take some time and a temporary performance drop to adapt, but for endurance, it makes sense.
Jimmy Morre has an interview(#642) on his website with Tim Olson, 2012 Western States 100 miler winner. I think there are videos on youtube too.
Good luck and keep us posted on how it works for you!
Liz1959 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-07-2013, 06:30 AM   #23
Senior LCF Member
 
pibble mama's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: East Coast
Posts: 196
Gallery: pibble mama
Stats: 289.6/283/175!!
WOE: NK newbie!
Start Date: January 2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by sharkbait View Post
hi, i found the link: Tim Noakes
WOW!!! That was awesome! I am going to have to look more into this! I don't compete (who am i kidding, i rarely move ) but at one time I was REALLY intrigued by endurance and was told I needed to get into competing due to my "work horse" ability. I love swimming and it was a sad sad day in my world when Ian Thorpe retired!

I would be very interested in keeping up with your journey! Good luck on the race!
pibble mama is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 11:18 PM.


Copyright ©1999-2014 Friends Forums LLC. All rights reserved. - Terms of Service | Privacy Policy
LowCarbFriends® is a registered mark of Friends Forums, LLC.