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-   -   Ketosis and endurance... for dummies (http://www.lowcarbfriends.com/bbs/nutritional-ketosis-high-fat-low-carb/795079-ketosis-endurance-dummies.html)

sharkbait 01-22-2013 06:58 AM

Ketosis and endurance... for dummies
 
Hi, I'm trying to get keto-adapted but although there are lots of 'scraps' on the web, there doesn't seem to be any definitive guide. What would you recommend? I'm a swimmer training for a English Channel Relay swim so I'm doing 1-2 hours of swimming a day. This will be increasing to 3 in the next 2 months so would like to get this right before then. Any help would be appreciated.

reddarin 01-22-2013 11:27 AM

Get 'The Art And Science Of Low Carb Performance' by Phinney/Volek. You can get the e-book immediately but the physical book is much better for studying.

I haven't read it but it is the companion book to 'The Art And Science Of Low Carb Living' and it was written for athletes and exercise enthusiast.

unna 01-22-2013 11:35 AM

How many hours will you be swimming? The aspect that concerns me somewhat about this particular type of endurance sport is that you will be spending an extensive amount of time in cold water, which usually requires one to have more fat to protect the organs.

I did see a German documentary on something similar. It followed a man who was training to swim across the English Channel. He went to professional Dutch swimming trainers for guidance. They told him he absolutely had to gain weight, or he would not make it. Body fat is absolutely essential for this type of endurance sport.

Anyway - interesting question. I'd be interested to hear more about why you have chosen a keto-diet before such a big event.

Punkin 01-22-2013 12:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sharkbait (Post 16211842)
Hi, I'm trying to get keto-adapted but although there are lots of 'scraps' on the web, there doesn't seem to be any definitive guide. What would you recommend? I'm a swimmer training for a English Channel Relay swim so I'm doing 1-2 hours of swimming a day. This will be increasing to 3 in the next 2 months so would like to get this right before then. Any help would be appreciated.

What is your reason for becoming keto-adapted?

sharkbait 01-23-2013 01:50 AM

thanks for the replies... firstly, i would like to emphasize that I'm doing a relay, not a full channel swim. There are 6 of us swimming in hourly legs until we finish. Therefore body fat isn't as high a factor as with a solo swim.

secondly, I'm at 30% BFP at the moment, down from the 40% high I had in July but still a way to go to my 15% goal. Most solo swimmers are sitting around 7-10 % and that is why they are normally told to pick up some fat (the famous Guinness diet)

So I want to go keto to lose weight but I also think it helps in in endurance events. I know many iron-man athletes go keto (although many won't admit it as it gives them such an advantage). I follow Peter Attia's blog and he did the Catalina swim on a keto diet and has done quite a few marathons (10km) in this state.

I actually have the book 'The Art And Science Of Low Carb Performance' on my phone which I bought right at the beginning of my journey... perhaps i need to re-read it now that I understand low carb a bit better although i did find it quite technical.

thanks again for all the replies!

Punkin 01-23-2013 03:53 AM

I am a swimmer myself and I found the induction period to be really difficult. You'll find that your performance will plummet. But if you need to lose a lot of weight, it will help you do that. So for you, it is probably good to do it.

Ironman athletes race in a ketogenic state? Are you sure about that? Maybe to complete an ironman, but I don't think the pros do this. You need to fuel your body with carbs if you are racing. Competitive athletes are more likely doing CKDs or TKDs as opposed to SKDs. Do you ever watch races on TV? Are they spitting out their performance drinks and gels? I am just curious. From what I understand ketosis is for losing fat, but not for performing. When you do your race you will probably have to come out of ketosis to perform well.

sharkbait 01-23-2013 04:30 AM

Have a read of this blog by Peter Attia. He believes that keto state has definite benefits for endurance athletes. I have seen a video by Prof Tim Noakes, a leading sports scientist, who has claimed that at least a few of the elite ironman athletes are on low-carb diets. I will try find the video on youtube and post it. I think with the invention of superstarch(a new supplement of carbs that give the fuel but don't spike your insulin levels) we will get more endurance athletes following this. I know the winner of the London 2012 marathon used superstarch but I don't know what his diet was...

How a low carb diet affected my athletic performance (Part 4) The Eating Academy | Peter Attia, M.D. The Eating Academy | Peter Attia, M.D.

unna 01-23-2013 10:51 AM

How long have you been trying to get keto-adapted? How have your swim practices been going?

Punkin 01-23-2013 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sharkbait (Post 16213625)
Have a read of this blog by Peter Attia. He believes that keto state has definite benefits for endurance athletes. I have seen a video by Prof Tim Noakes, a leading sports scientist, who has claimed that at least a few of the elite ironman athletes are on low-carb diets. I will try find the video on youtube and post it. I think with the invention of superstarch(a new supplement of carbs that give the fuel but don't spike your insulin levels) we will get more endurance athletes following this. I know the winner of the London 2012 marathon used superstarch but I don't know what his diet was...

How a low carb diet affected my athletic performance (Part 4) The Eating Academy | Peter Attia, M.D. The Eating Academy | Peter Attia, M.D.

I've read Peter's blog and about superstarch. Although it is true that many of them probably follow a low carb diet I think it is for weight control so they don't gain too much weight in the off season. When they race I believe they use carbs at least to some extent. You can do it in two ways, using a targeted ketogenic diet where you consume carbs before the workout, although that doesn't sound very effective, because it is your muscles that need the fuel. Or a cyclic ketogenic diet. This is where you carb load before your race. Even Peter admits that his "top end" power is lower. I think he uses the superstarch to get through his longer workouts when his muscles are depleted in their glycogen stores. I am just curious who these elite ironman athletes are, and are they spitting out their carb drinks while they are racing? Because from what I understand they need to consume at least some carbs in longer events once their glycogen stores are depleted which will definitely happen on longer races, I don't think you can race fast just burning fatty acids, if your competitors are fueling with at least some carbs. It is the carbs that gives you the top end power. At least that is what Peter states in his blog.

sharkbait 01-24-2013 12:50 AM

definately needs some more research on my side. I was quoting from a video I had seen where he names a ftop female athlete that has been low carb from the 90's. I will try find the vid.

Punkin 01-24-2013 04:05 AM

Yeah, if you can find the video that would great, post the link. In competitive swimming its different maybe. But I am curious about the IM athletes who win Kona. We should watch to see if there are taking in their sponsors carb sources during the race. Maybe not, if there being handed a generic bottle by their coaches. If that is the case, then they are really misleading the public. Nothing surprizes me anymore though, obviously they aren't going to publish their trade secrets to the masses.

sharkbait 01-24-2013 07:01 AM

true true... slightly off topic... does anyone know the best place to buy ketone test strips? I'm currently using freestyle optium strips but they are quite expensive in the UK, around 3 per strip. (Apologies if I'm not allowed to ask this here)

reddarin 01-24-2013 07:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sharkbait (Post 16216279)
true true... slightly off topic... does anyone know the best place to buy ketone test strips? I'm currently using freestyle optium strips but they are quite expensive in the UK, around 3 per strip. (Apologies if I'm not allowed to ask this here)

Post your question in the http://www.lowcarbfriends.com/bbs/nu...-you-zone.html thread. There are a lot of those folks that use the test strips I think.

NKSL55 01-24-2013 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Punkin (Post 16214771)
I've read Peter's blog and about superstarch. Although it is true that many of them probably follow a low carb diet I think it is for weight control so they don't gain too much weight in the off season. When they race I believe they use carbs at least to some extent. You can do it in two ways, using a targeted ketogenic diet where you consume carbs before the workout, although that doesn't sound very effective, because it is your muscles that need the fuel. Or a cyclic ketogenic diet. This is where you carb load before your race. Even Peter admits that his "top end" power is lower. I think he uses the superstarch to get through his longer workouts when his muscles are depleted in their glycogen stores. I am just curious who these elite ironman athletes are, and are they spitting out their carb drinks while they are racing? Because from what I understand they need to consume at least some carbs in longer events once their glycogen stores are depleted which will definitely happen on longer races, I don't think you can race fast just burning fatty acids, if your competitors are fueling with at least some carbs. It is the carbs that gives you the top end power. At least that is what Peter states in his blog.

Have you read Attia's blog -- the entry that Sharkbait links to? There was only a single aspect of Attia's performance that was not improved by being in ketosis when he had them tested. Later, in one of the comment threads he mention that even that aspect was beginning to improve. Possibly because even after the many months he had been in ketosis his body was still adapting.

If you carb load with pretty much anything other than Superstarch, you would fall out of ketosis and not have very good access to your fat stores. Why would you do that?

--
Phillip

Yvonnem2000 01-25-2013 01:00 AM

I'm no expert on this subject, but I have my own experiences with sprint triathlons last summer after starting low-carb in April. I was able to finish all three sprints, but I never felt strong. I had to take my training run speed down. I was not fast before low-carb, but I got slower and just felt sluggish. Finally in August I started to feel normal, and now I can perform physically as well as I ever did, I think. If I recall, Peter said it took months for him to adapt. In fact, that was what kept me going and gave me hope that eventually I'd feel normal again.

Maybe your experience will be more smooth than mine. I love your name and avatar! Good luck on your training and event. Very cool endeavor.

dawnth1 02-07-2013 10:08 PM

I had the same question. Look up Keto calculator on internet. Plug in info and gives you a definitive amount of calories, protein, etc, based on exercise and body type. Adjust monthly as needed.

sharkbait 02-08-2013 08:46 AM

so a little update... I've managed to get a blood monitor and keto strips. My ketone level was 1.7 today and my glucose 4.8. I have a ridiculous amount of energy when i'm swimming although I do notice that it takes me quite a while to warm up (20-30min). For that 1st period, i feel really sluggish and a bit tired and then suddenly it's like a switch is flicked and i feel like a tuna... not sure how mental this is... lesson for me, i guess is that if i am doing any time time trials, i need at least 800-1000m warm up before do the time run. next week i'm doing a timed 2.5km and i'm definately going to try this 1st.

sharkbait 02-14-2013 05:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Punkin (Post 16215898)
Yeah, if you can find the video that would great, post the link. In competitive swimming its different maybe. But I am curious about the IM athletes who win Kona. We should watch to see if there are taking in their sponsors carb sources during the race. Maybe not, if there being handed a generic bottle by their coaches. If that is the case, then they are really misleading the public. Nothing surprizes me anymore though, obviously they aren't going to publish their trade secrets to the masses.

hi, i found the link: Tim Noakes

fboab 02-15-2013 07:19 AM

I'm also finding it takes me a looong time to warm up. 30 minutes, probably.

sharkbait 02-16-2013 02:11 AM

i didn't do my time trial but for my last masters session, i got to the pool early and did a hard 400m warm-up... what a difference it made to my session... i was able to really power and although i did cramp a little towards the end, it was a much better quality session... i think my salt/potassium is ok so i'm a bit baffled by the cramping... oh well....

angelface11 02-25-2013 12:51 PM

http://www.3fatchicks.net/img/bar-ch...3/140/185/.png

Liz1959 03-06-2013 09:05 PM

I have a friend who runs marathons. I'm trying to get her to look into the science of keto-adaptation. It seems to take some time and a temporary performance drop to adapt, but for endurance, it makes sense.
Jimmy Morre has an interview(#642) on his website with Tim Olson, 2012 Western States 100 miler winner. I think there are videos on youtube too.
Good luck and keep us posted on how it works for you!

pibble mama 03-07-2013 06:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sharkbait (Post 16258583)
hi, i found the link: Tim Noakes

WOW!!! That was awesome! I am going to have to look more into this! I don't compete (who am i kidding, i rarely move :hyst:) but at one time I was REALLY intrigued by endurance and was told I needed to get into competing due to my "work horse" ability. I love swimming and it was a sad sad day in my world when Ian Thorpe retired! :love:

I would be very interested in keeping up with your journey! Good luck on the race!


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