January Nutritional Ketosis...Are you in the zone?

[mom2zeke]

Originally Posted by NKSL55

I started adding 1/2-1 TBSP of CO to broth before my lifting workouts recently. I have noticed that tends to crank my BK levels. I also tried some CO just before bed and that resulted in 5+ mM morning BK levels.

Actually Peter Attia was writing about those Veech et al. studies (may not have been published yet) where athletes on a non-ketogenic diet can attain 7 mM BK levels by taking ketone-ester compounds of that group's own design.

That is an extreme case, because hydrolysis of the ester linkage is all that is required to produce beta-hydroxybutyrate. But the medium chain triglycerides also provide a moderately easy path in the same direction.

--
Phillip

Thanks for the information Phillip. Do you think that the CO before lifting makes a difference in your performance, or just the ketones?

[mom2zeke]

Originally Posted by tablis

Hi- thanks for the response kristn. OMG I have been LC for so long I forgot how hard it is to restart... I know its just a matter of 48 or so hours to get thru and then it gets easier but the cravings and the headaches are doing me in. I just messed up again and I hope that tomorrow I can make it thru.. not that the carbs make me feel that great either... totally tired and brain fogged... uggh.But at the moment where I feel a headache, impatient etc a little taste of carb takes it away almost immediately.

I'm so sorry to hear that you're having a hard time restarting. One of the things I do when I'm on the verge of making a bad choice is asking myself whether tomorrow I will regret not eating whatever it is that's tempting me--usually the answer is no and I back away. You can make it through these first few days and get back on track--we're all pulling for you.

We're all going thru winter stuff here, DH with pneumonia, DD an DS home sick with regular colds etc. haven't had much time to read and answer.

I hope that your family is feeling better soon!

I'm not on any meds. I'm 5 feet small framed. my goal weight is 110 but I have been quite happy at 120-30 in the past. I am about 185 . probably more by tomorrow.

I haven't done a full thyroid panel yet. TSH was normal. I overtrained for a long time and I think I might have an adrenal thing going on but haven't checked it out yet.

I don't know how to paste this in from FD so that it comes out readable...
here's a typical day from NK...

3 Tbsp CO
3 Tbsp cocoa
4 tsps splenda

3 eggs
4 Tbsps canola oil

1 oz macadamia nuts

120 gms chicken breast
1.5 cup lettuce

3 to go packs of crystal lite

Total cals: 1573
fat, protein, carbs : 79.5/16.1/4.3
total carbs: 17.7
protein gms: 59.7

Thanks for sharing all of this, it's very helpful! Do you have your actual TSH results, or did the doctor just tell you that you were normal? I know you've probably read all the thyroid stuff that Shelley has posted, but "normal" TSH to many doctors is not normal at all. If you have a chance to get your TSH results they might hold a clue.

The things that jump out at me are the canola oil, the splenda, and crystal light. I think that Phinney and Volek say that Canola is okay, but I've heard from many other sources that it is an oil to be avoided, YMMV. Is the splenda that you're using the powdered kind? Both powdered splenda and crystal light can have fillers that effect some people. Otherwise your protein and carb numbers look good. What were your ketone readings when you were testing? Are you testing now?

The other thing is that you may not be in enough of a calorie deficit to lose. Were you one of the people who couldn't get the keto calculator to work? I tried plugging in your current and goal numbers (I'm not sure how old you are, your BF%, and your activity level, so I faked it a little) and it looks like 1500 calories is barely a deficit for your current weight and height and not a deficit for your goal weight. Once you get back into ketosis you could try lowering your fat intake by 10 or 20 grams and see if that's enough to get you losing.

[mom2zeke]

Originally Posted by BigRunner

For now, I am keeping the caffeine. I gotta have some vice.
Well that and an occasional Miller Lite.

I'm with you on the caffeine! The Miller Lite, not so much.

[mom2zeke]

Originally Posted by clackley

I stopped posting my stats because I felt like it made me look bad. People can make some very unkind remarks based on them and I can be very thin skinned at times. I have seen none of that here and everyone has been wonderfully supportive and kind. So here is my deal...

Starting weight, 228.5 (Oct. 2009), current weight, 174 and goal weight, anything below 140.

I hit 172.5 Oct 2010 and weight loss just stopped. So 56lbs. lost in just under 1 yr. and then the brick wall. I actually started gaining despite all efforts and this continued for a few months into N.K. (got up to 182).

I am thoroughly delighted that I have stopped gaining and relost 8 lbs. and berberine seems to have be a factor. I am almost out and will not be ordering more as it is mightily expensive for me on a tight budget. I decided that I needed to know for sure what my ketones were like. So time will tell ....

I am still pretty happy to be where I am now and will consider my options but I.F. seems the next logical move. Thank you for sharing all your ideas and personal experiences. It is really useful to me and I appreciate it!

Cathy--thank you so much for sharing all of this! It is so helpful for others who find themselves in your situation. You've had such great success so far, and sticking with it even when things aren't working as you want them to is hard as we both know.

Are you planning to keep the same macros but use IF to change your eating pattern or are you going to change your macros also? I know that lots of people have success with this and it will be interesting to see how it works for you.

[mom2zeke]

Luigi--it looks like you're in the NK zone with your morning readings!

Good to see you posting again cfine!

[bjjcaveman]

mom2zeke - Did you ever end up doing your afternoon/evening measurement?

I've kinda been curious all day to see if your special 'ketone-sixth-sense' was correct!

It's interesting to see if there are non-blood ketone ways of determining if you are in ketosis or not (not including the urine dip sticks)

but in terms of how you feel and other subjective 'sixth-sense' types of things. I haven't noticed any things with myself.. but maybe its because I haven't been paying attention either.

One thing with me at least I've noticed lately that when my fasting blood sugars are higher.. at least more than 85, it's a pretty good indication that I've popped out of the ketosis.

[mom2zeke]

Originally Posted by bjjcaveman

mom2zeke - Did you ever end up doing your afternoon/evening measurement?

I've kinda been curious all day to see if your special 'ketone-sixth-sense' was correct!

LOL. I was going to wait until tomorrow to post my results, but since you asked...

5:45pm ketones (pre-dinner): 1.6

So, definitely in ketosis this afternoon/evening. But I'm not sure about tomorrow morning. I have a feeling that I'm having the overnight glucose dump that people talk about. It will be interesting to see what tomorrow morning's ketone reading is.

[tablis]

Originally Posted by mom2zeke

I'm so sorry to hear that you're having a hard time restarting. One of the things I do when I'm on the verge of making a bad choice is asking myself whether tomorrow I will regret not eating whatever it is that's tempting me--usually the answer is no and I back away. You can make it through these first few days and get back on track--we're all pulling for you.

Thanks I hope tomorrow will be better. I think just to get myself out of the carbs I'm not going to limit my protein for the first day or two. Hope that helps.

Originally Posted by mom2zeke

Thanks for sharing all of this, it's very helpful! Do you have your actual TSH results, or did the doctor just tell you that you were normal? I know you've probably read all the thyroid stuff that Shelley has posted, but "normal" TSH to many doctors is not normal at all. If you have a chance to get your TSH results they might hold a clue.

I don't have it on me right now but shelley did tell me that the tsh was on the low side even though the dr. said it was normal... Have not yet looked into how to get rx'd.

Originally Posted by mom2zeke

The things that jump out at me are the canola oil, the splenda, and crystal light. I think that Phinney and Volek say that Canola is okay, but I've heard from many other sources that it is an oil to be avoided, YMMV. Is the splenda that you're using the powdered kind? Both powdered splenda and crystal light can have fillers that effect some people. Otherwise your protein and carb numbers look good. What were your ketone readings when you were testing? Are you testing now?

The other thing is that you may not be in enough of a calorie deficit to lose. Were you one of the people who couldn't get the keto calculator to work? I tried plugging in your current and goal numbers (I'm not sure how old you are, your BF%, and your activity level, so I faked it a little) and it looks like 1500 calories is barely a deficit for your current weight and height and not a deficit for your goal weight. Once you get back into ketosis you could try lowering your fat intake by 10 or 20 grams and see if that's enough to get you losing.

It could be the splenda... I switched to splenda to get off the aspartame and caffeine. I used to drink tons of pepsimax. I hate water. Way back I lost LOTs of weight drinking pepsimax and using sweet n low but I think it gave me headaches. I drink the crystal lite very watered down... I stretch the 3 packs thru a whole days worth of water. I use the other splenda (and the cocoa) to kill the taste of the CO. Should I go back to sweet n low?
I got the keto calculator to work in chrome. it wouldn't go in IE. I'm 40 and at the moment fairly sedentary bc I was overtraining before. I do 3 short workouts a week now and stretching. Less than 1500 cals seems really hard especially when most of it is from fat .
Well I'm going to try to get back into atkins ketosis (with unlimited protein and cals) just to get the cravings out of the way. Then I will start tweaking NK again according to your advice. Thanks!

[bjjcaveman]

Originally Posted by mom2zeke

LOL. I was going to wait until tomorrow to post my results, but since you asked...

5:45pm ketones (pre-dinner): 1.6

So, definitely in ketosis this afternoon/evening. But I'm not sure about tomorrow morning. I have a feeling that I'm having the overnight glucose dump that people talk about. It will be interesting to see what tomorrow morning's ketone reading is.

Thats fantastic! You are well into the nutritional ketosis range! Congrats!!!

Just out of curiosity... how long between your last meal and when you checked your blood levels...

this was always the part that confused me. I've never been sure exactly for how long your meal affects your ketone levels.

From what I understand about protein and fat ingestion, it actually slows down your digestion compared to carbs (which helps suppress appetite) so you're absorbing everything more slowly...

This will have to be one of my next experiments. Once I'm in the nutritional ketosis range, I'll drink/eat a fat bomb in the morning while fasting and I'll check my ketone levels periodically for a couple of hours to see what happens (with no physical activity).

Hopefully this will show us (or at least in my body) what the effect of a fat bomb to my ketone levels will be!

So much interesting stuff to learn with this!

[Myles]

Originally Posted by mom2zeke

LOL. I was going to wait until tomorrow to post my results, but since you asked...

5:45pm ketones (pre-dinner): 1.6

So, definitely in ketosis this afternoon/evening. But I'm not sure about tomorrow morning. I have a feeling that I'm having the overnight glucose dump that people talk about. It will be interesting to see what tomorrow morning's ketone reading is.

testing during the day over .5 means you're in ketosis? I tested this morning for the first time in a long time and was .3 - so if i test tonight or today during the day (when is best?) it will mean ketosis ? i thought anything over .1 is ketosis ?

[Mimosa23]

I posted a hello in the other challenge thread for January, and not sure whether I can post here as well... Hi everyone!

New here but not new to LCF. Some of you probably know me! (Hi Cathy!)

I have been doing LC on an off for many years, and stupidly always slowly end up falling off the wagon and then letting myself gain weight. I have always naturally preferred higher fats and I enjoy IF, so we'll see how I go.

Unfortunately, I have no way of measuring blood ketones, so I am going to try and figure out my ratios and stick with them as well as I can. At the moment, I am still reading up on lots, but hopefully I can be supportive and be supported in our journeys here!

[cici52]

Good morning. Just checking in. Notice a comment on artificial sweeteners. I did not use them before doing NK but do now. Have not lost any weight yet. May have to nix them along with some other things (cream, cheese). Already quit alcohol since before NY. Am keeping track of my coffee now. Didn't realize it had carbs. Previous trials to switch to tea don't last long. Someday I will get it all figured out. They don't have an emotocon to properly express what I will feel when this stall breaks.

[Mimosa23]

Cici, maybe switch to stevia as an artificial sweetener? It is much sweeter than other sweeteners I find, and it is natural, it could make a difference... For me, any sweetener per dose I calculate a carb, whether they exist or not, as my body and brain react to them, I found out...

[portcop01]

Liq. Stevia has no carbs!

[clackley]

Hi Mimosa!

[UnstrungHarp]

Just a basic catch-up check in today...nothing exciting to report.

Yesterday
a.m. ketones: 1.7
a.m. weight: 144.4
total calories & macros: 1837 / p: 84g / c: 25g / f: 156g
Dealt with the typical TOM hunger and headache, all day long. That's why my numbers were higher than they have been...just couldn't seem to get enough to eat.

Today
a.m. ketones: 1.2
a.m. weight: 144.4
Still have the headache, hoping for less hunger today. Nice to see that the higher protein yesterday didn't knock me totally out of ketosis.

I've really enjoyed the 2 consecutive days of rest with no workout...every time I stand up and walk, my legs are still complaining about Friday's leg workout!! Also, the scale doesn't reflect this, but for some reason I feel "lighter" today. Odd, since usually this early in TOM, I feel yucky and bloated.

Hope everyone has a happy Monday!!

[mom2zeke]

Good morning everyone!

Post off-plan meal (Tuesday 1/1) getting back into ketosis stats:

Wed: Ketones .2, Weight 147.6
Thurs: Ketones .2, Weight 148.2
Fri: Ketones .1, Weight 148
Sat: Ketones .2, Weight 147
Sun: Ketones .3, Weight 147.2, pm ketones 1.6
Mon: Ketones .3, Weight 147.2

Wow, this is a slow process! As I suspected I am going out of ketosis overnight. I'm trying to be patient while getting back into ketosis. I guess Dr. Phinney was right when he said it would take up to 2 weeks!

bjjcaveman--my afternoon/evening reading was 5 hours after lunch, but only about an hour after my afternoon coffee with coconut cream.

Myles--ketosis (as defined by the Performance book) is blood readings over .5, with the "ideal zone" being ~1.5-3.

Mimosa23! Glad to have you here!!

cici! It's been a while!

tablis--what did the calculator give you for maintenance calories now and at your goal weight?

RE: artificial sweeteners. Some people seem to have issues with them, whether it's stalling or inducing cravings. Also, the powdered forms have fillers that some people react to. I use AS but stick to the liquid forms without carbs or fillers. This is really a YMMV thing.

[mom2zeke]

Originally Posted by tablis

Thanks I hope tomorrow will be better. I think just to get myself out of the carbs I'm not going to limit my protein for the first day or two. Hope that helps.

Well I'm going to try to get back into atkins ketosis (with unlimited protein and cals) just to get the cravings out of the way. Then I will start tweaking NK again according to your advice. Thanks!

I think when going through induction flu this is the best strategy. Don't limit anything but carbs! Once you're feeling better you can start deciding what changes to make.

I don't have it on me right now but shelley did tell me that the tsh was on the low side even though the dr. said it was normal... Have not yet looked into how to get rx'd.

It might be worth doing more investigation. Losing is pretty difficult when your thyroid is off.

It could be the splenda... I switched to splenda to get off the aspartame and caffeine. I used to drink tons of pepsimax. I hate water. Way back I lost LOTs of weight drinking pepsimax and using sweet n low but I think it gave me headaches. I drink the crystal lite very watered down... I stretch the 3 packs thru a whole days worth of water. I use the other splenda (and the cocoa) to kill the taste of the CO. Should I go back to sweet n low?

You could try switching to liquid sweeteners instead of packets. I'm not sure if it will make a difference, but it's something to try.

I got the keto calculator to work in chrome. it wouldn't go in IE. I'm 40 and at the moment fairly sedentary bc I was overtraining before. I do 3 short workouts a week now and stretching. Less than 1500 cals seems really hard especially when most of it is from fat .

I asked this in my other post, but I'm going to repeat myself. What did the calculator give you for current weight maintenance calories and goal weight maintenance calories? This information could help in setting goals for weight loss (or not).

[cici52]

Hi, Kristn. I stop in every day but really can't add anything to the predominant discussion on keto testing so don't post much. For me, the test will be lower numbers; on the scale, on the tape measure, on my clothing tags.

[tablis]

Originally Posted by mom2zeke

I asked this in my other post, but I'm going to repeat myself. What did the calculator give you for current weight maintenance calories and goal weight maintenance calories? This information could help in setting goals for weight loss (or not).

Its saying my BMR is 1449. total daily energy expenditure is 2246.
Its also telling me to eat 118 gm of protein.
It says if I eat 1500 cals and 118 gm of protein I should be at goal next december... Am I doing something wrong? This is confusing bc I thought I was told to get the protein down to 60ish and keep the cals around 1500. 118 would be more fun of course... at this point I don't really care what the numbers are - I will do anything - I just want it to work

PS. it shows my end weight as 26lbs higher than what I'm pretty sure my goal is supposed to be... confused

[mom2zeke]

Originally Posted by tablis

Its saying my BMR is 1449. total daily energy expenditure is 2246.
Its also telling me to eat 118 gm of protein.
It says if I eat 1500 cals and 118 gm of protein I should be at goal next december... Am I doing something wrong? This is confusing bc I thought I was told to get the protein down to 60ish and keep the cals around 1500. 118 would be more fun of course... at this point I don't really care what the numbers are - I will do anything - I just want it to work

PS. it shows my end weight as 26lbs higher than what I'm pretty sure my goal is supposed to be... confused

Hmmm. that's interesting. At 50 yo, 145 goal weight with 20%BF and moderate exercise my daily expenditure on the calculator is 1996 with a minimum of 74 grams of protein (I shoot for around 70). Maybe it's the difference between using current and goal figures? Age is also a factor, when I put in 40yo it gives me ~100 more calories/day.

I also think their protein recommendation can be high for someone who is a long-term low carber. I know that I cannot go higher than 90 grams without going out of ketosis (and at that level my ketosis is on the lower end of the scale), and I'm 5.5" taller than you. But its such an individual number--you may be able to eat higher protein if you're testing and still in ketosis.

I guess another thing to think about is the downregulation of metabolism for someone who is living in a weight-reduced state. The latest study on LC maintenance showed that LC maintainers had a higher resting metabolism than non-LC maintainers, but they were both lower than people who were never weight-reduced.

Argh! Too many factors to think about. Once you're over the LC flu you can start making adjustments and see how they affect your ketones and weight-loss.

[drjlocarb]

Originally Posted by tablis

Its saying my BMR is 1449. total daily energy expenditure is 2246.
Its also telling me to eat 118 gm of protein.
It says if I eat 1500 cals and 118 gm of protein I should be at goal next december... Am I doing something wrong? This is confusing bc I thought I was told to get the protein down to 60ish and keep the cals around 1500. 118 would be more fun of course... at this point I don't really care what the numbers are - I will do anything - I just want it to work

PS. it shows my end weight as 26lbs higher than what I'm pretty sure my goal is supposed to be... confused

The calculator shows what your weight would be in 1 year with the calories, carbs, and protein you entered, not your goal weight in Jan 2014.

If you change those numbers, it will show you where you will be in 1 year with the different numbers.

My stats, 80g ptn,20 carbs, and 1500 calories gives me a ending weight in 1 year as just about dead. Which means I would be at goal in May or June.

[drjlocarb]

After playing with the calculator a bit, the amount of protein is determined by the % body fat you enter at the start. If you are 200 lbs and say you are 20% vs 50% changes the ptn requirements drastically. That would also change the goal weight it gives for you because after a certain weight, you no longer have fat to lose, just muscle.

If it shows 26 lbs too high, that means it thinks those 26 lbs were muscle when you started, not fat.

[tablis]

Originally Posted by mom2zeke

Hmmm. that's interesting. At 50 yo, 145 goal weight with 20%BF and moderate exercise my daily expenditure on the calculator is 1996 with a minimum of 74 grams of protein (I shoot for around 70). Maybe it's the difference between using current and goal figures? Age is also a factor, when I put in 40yo it gives me ~100 more calories/day.

I also think their protein recommendation can be high for someone who is a long-term low carber. I know that I cannot go higher than 90 grams without going out of ketosis (and at that level my ketosis is on the lower end of the scale), and I'm 5.5" taller than you. But its such an individual number--you may be able to eat higher protein if you're testing and still in ketosis.

I guess another thing to think about is the downregulation of metabolism for someone who is living in a weight-reduced state. The latest study on LC maintenance showed that LC maintainers had a higher resting metabolism than non-LC maintainers, but they were both lower than people who were never weight-reduced.

Argh! Too many factors to think about. Once you're over the LC flu you can start making adjustments and see how they affect your ketones and weight-loss.

Thank you so much for trying to help me with this.. I'm just so frustrated bc I've been VLC and stalled for so long. Once I pass 48 hrs I am really able to follow any low carb variation to the letter so I don't mind whatever macros I'm given to adhere to... its just that I've already tried for so long and nothing is working. As I mentioned, immediately prior to my 10 weeks of NK I had done the Leptin reset for 6 weeks keeping my carbs and it also didn't do anything for me.... Even now when I went off plan it was a choice, It wasn't intense cravings that made me do it. (intense cravings only came after lol)

The contraints I was using for the last few weeks of NK were average 1500 cals, 65-85% fat, less than 30 total carbs and 55-60 gm protein. I think I got that from these forums but I'm a little confused now.

So what would you recommend I try next? How long should I try that scenerio before trying the next tweak if I remain stalled?

I guess its just that I'd like to find a way to make LC work for me bc carbs don't agree with me yet I'm starting to feel a little on the crazy side for clinging to this for YEARS when I'm not losing. Does that make sense?

[tablis]

Originally Posted by drjlocarb

After playing with the calculator a bit, the amount of protein is determined by the % body fat you enter at the start. If you are 200 lbs and say you are 20% vs 50% changes the ptn requirements drastically. That would also change the goal weight it gives for you because after a certain weight, you no longer have fat to lose, just muscle.

If it shows 26 lbs too high, that means it thinks those 26 lbs were muscle when you started, not fat.

HMMM. thanks for this.
One of the reasons that I didn't really use this tool before is bc there were certain boxes I wasn't sure how to fill correctly. As for the BF%, I looked at the pix and took a guess. Maybe I'm actually higher than I thought. Its kind of hard to be objective about that.

[bjjcaveman]

Weight: 184 -> 182.8 -> 183.2
AM Ketones: 0.3 -> 0.4 -> 0.5

Stepwise progression into nutritional ketosis.. finally! Looks like I didn't fall off the wagon THAT badly if it took 3ish days to get back into the zone!

Here is my macro break down from yesterday
Fat: 170 gm (73%)
Protein: 107 gm (21%)
Carbs: 39 gm (7%)

How does this look to you guys?

[cici52]

tablis, I am feeling your pain. I have been stalled forever. Don't have the answers. I am combining NK with JUDDD from 1/2 - 2/14. If that doesn't get the scales moving...

[tablis]

Originally Posted by cici52

tablis, I am feeling your pain. I have been stalled forever. Don't have the answers. I am combining NK with JUDDD from 1/2 - 2/14. If that doesn't get the scales moving...

thanks
Well Judd is one diet I dont know much about... that's unusual lol.
At least I have something to try next....
Hoping we ALL get healthily skinny SOON!

[luigi_uk]

no blood ketone test this morning, as food has been very similar last couple days

ketone urine strip looked over 0.5 tonight

30 mins x-trainer moderate (morning)

60 mins ashtanga yoga (eve)



according to my food logger i have not eaten my full RDI today, im at 90%
208g fat, 41g carbs, 51 protein

will eating less than my RDI induce more ketosis?

[mom2zeke]

Originally Posted by UnstrungHarp

Just a basic catch-up check in today...nothing exciting to report.

Yesterday
a.m. ketones: 1.7
a.m. weight: 144.4
total calories & macros: 1837 / p: 84g / c: 25g / f: 156g
Dealt with the typical TOM hunger and headache, all day long. That's why my numbers were higher than they have been...just couldn't seem to get enough to eat.

It looks like you did a pretty good job making it through! My numbers are always higher around TOM.

Today
a.m. ketones: 1.2
a.m. weight: 144.4
Still have the headache, hoping for less hunger today. Nice to see that the higher protein yesterday didn't knock me totally out of ketosis.

I've really enjoyed the 2 consecutive days of rest with no workout...every time I stand up and walk, my legs are still complaining about Friday's leg workout!! Also, the scale doesn't reflect this, but for some reason I feel "lighter" today. Odd, since usually this early in TOM, I feel yucky and bloated.

Hope everyone has a happy Monday!!

for rest days!! And what is up with that scale? Can you use it without "registering" yourself? Just as a scale. I no longer log-in to my scale since I only use it for weight.