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Old 01-03-2013, 02:39 PM   #61
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WOE: Nutritional Ketosis--Maintenance!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SFGirl99 View Post
Happy New Year everyone. I have been lurking for some time (going back to the November thread). First, I would like to thank all of you for sharing your experiences - it has been immensely helpful!. Second, I recall that from time to time people have posted questions about what impact, if any, TOM has on ketosis or ketone production. Peter Attia posted something about that in the comments section on his blog on January 2, 2013. A reader (Risa) indicated that she seems to slip easily in and out of ketosis during TOM even though she is consistently low carb and moderate protein. Attia passed her question on to Dr. Phinney and Dr. Volek. Attia posted Phinney's response in the comments section. It is too long to quote, but essentially, he says that there are no peer reviewed studies addressing this question. He said, however, that they were able to keep many young adult women consistently in NK in metabolic wards as long as they maintained carbs at under 30 grams and protein under 100 grams. He also noted that they tested thousands of women weekly in outpatient low carb clinics and they did not see a connection between "low ketones and late luteal phase." He did say that they observed women who had marginal ketones appeared to be "more susceptible to pre-menstrual cravings (which of course nuked their ketones)."
SFGirl99! Thanks for delurking and thanks for posting this, I had read through the comments, but missed this follow up one. I did notice that he referred to "many young adult women," and I wonder there's a difference if you are middle-aged?

Last edited by mom2zeke; 01-03-2013 at 02:41 PM..
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Old 01-03-2013, 02:52 PM   #62
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todays readings

from tomorrow I am only doing the evening BK test as its too expensive twice a day...

morning
BK 0.3
BS 4.7 fasting

40 mins moderate cardio

evening
BK 0.8
BS 6.1

thats me today, my partner and I are looking for a holiday in india or similar, I was thinking, how the hell do i do this diet for 2 weeks in india or where ever? I cant take a kilo of CO, can I?
Hi...first of all, the most accurate test is first thing in the AM....the PM test gives you a reading based on what you've been eating/doing. I've read that in several places.

Next, I lived in India for 2.5 years and I can tell you that it will be EASY to stay on plan there!!!! They do lots of fish and chicken dishes and lots of coconut milk and curries that are definitely on plan. And their veggies are good too!!! I was 50# lighter than I am today when living there!!!!! True!
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Old 01-03-2013, 04:18 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mom2zeke View Post
SFGirl99! Thanks for delurking and thanks for posting this, I had read through the comments, but missed this follow up one. I did notice that he referred to "many young adult women," and I wonder there's a difference if you are middle-aged?
Welcome SFGirl99!! Yes I read that response as well and wondered the same as Kirstn - how about older women? I was glad though that they specifically identified the fact that they were young women.
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Old 01-03-2013, 05:06 PM   #64
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SFGirl99! Thanks for delurking and thanks for posting this, I had read through the comments, but missed this follow up one. I did notice that he referred to "many young adult women," and I wonder there's a difference if you are middle-aged?
Hi Mom2zeke - thank you for the welcome! I noticed the same thing about the women being "young." Unfortunately, they did not give any information about what age range that included, or if older women would have different experiences. I guess this is new territory!

BTW- happy belated birthday and congratulations on your success. You are an inspiration!
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Old 01-03-2013, 05:16 PM   #65
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Welcome SFGirl99!!
Thank you, Clackley!
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Old 01-03-2013, 06:32 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Haycyn View Post
I am new here. But not new to stalling . I went to the doctor bc of it. They did the testing for thyroid and etc, but when they checked my BP it was elevated. I was having a reaction to Mirena. I went LC after I had it out, so I really don't know if it was the Mirena w the wt loss or the LC. There is talk in Internet land of Cortisol levels and lack of sleep stalling people. And as always, lack of exercise.

---------

I was eating approx 125f 125p and 7c. I have been eating a can of salmon 3x/w. 3 eggs, 3 strips bacon, and 2 sausages breakfast. If not salmon at lunch an egg or two. And supper is a few hburger patties or equivalent. Hey I was low carb . I had no idea. I love salad and I hope I can fit that in here.

I am still on the coffee for now. Surprisingly good w one tblspoon CO.

Are you testing blood ketones?

Your protein may be too high to get you into NK.
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Old 01-03-2013, 10:08 PM   #67
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Hi everyone,
so i am looking back over my spreadsheets- its a good thing I transfered FD to excel bc there doesn't seem to be a good way to pull up and analyze old entries... is there?
anyway- overall my days ended up averaging 75% fat, carbs under 30 and protein about 55-60. For an average of 1550 cals. The first couple of weeks my fat and protein were higher (80-90 gms protein) but then I scaled it back when I saw it wasn't working.
I'm 5 feet, small framed and have a lot to lose (70 lbs to 'goal weight' but 50-60 would be good too!).
Thanks all.

Last edited by tablis; 01-03-2013 at 10:12 PM..
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Old 01-04-2013, 04:37 AM   #68
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hello everyone--so glad to have found this thread! Thanks Kristn for doing another thread-I have read all your other ones and was thrilled to see this one-I am coming in a few days late--happy Belated Birthday!

I admit to being confused even after reading all the other threads-I am just not able to "get it" figured out-all these numbers! not a math person! but I am hoping that the more I just dive in and do it I will see it fall into place?
I am thankful for all the help that has been given so freely in the previous threads--so I have picked up some knowledge!

Looking forward to getting to knowing you all better! Thanks again for sharing your knowledge to all of you!
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Old 01-04-2013, 05:25 AM   #69
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I told myself I wouldn't post again as long as there was no weight change to report, since I haven't had any new questions or insights. So I guess that means I need to post this morning to report...

Ketones yesterday morning: 1.7
Ketones this morning: 2.4

Weight yesterday morning: 144.4 (that is, after the initial display of weird errors)
Weight this morning: 145.6

So I guess that "poor spell" my scale went through yesterday morning might have shocked it out of complacency. Hooray. (sarcasm) Also, yesterday I had my lowest calorie (1168), lowest protein (60) and lowest fat intake (90) in a long time (just typical carbs: 21). I wasn't really trying, it just happened that way, probably because we had dinner at home rather than at a restaurant!

Two things that are keeping me from plunging into deep depression: I expect TOM to start within the next 2 days, and I have been doing all new workouts this week. The workouts (XTrain) are all fantastic so far. The rotation I'm following at the moment includes 6 days a week, which I realize is probably a no-no. I just wanted to do as many of the new workouts as I could, as quickly as I could! There are still several I haven't done yet and won't get to them until next week. But I have been walking around with some degree of soreness in the majority of my muscles since Monday.

For anyone interested, the rotation goes something like this (just skip the rest of this post if you don't care!!).

Monday: Chest/Back/Shoulders

Tuesday: Cardio Leg Blast

Wednesday: Hard Strikes (boxing with weighted gloves; probably would qualify as steady-state cardio rather than intervals or HIIT; I did the "conditioning" segment at the end which added some light-weight upper body work as well as core)

Thursday: Bi's & Tri's

Friday: Legs & Rear Delts (the leg part is not the same as Tuesday; this one has no cardio focus, but it's a whopper: over 80 minutes! This is today, so I better get started soon, right??)

Saturday: All Out Low Impact HIIT, plus Core (I already tried "All Out" last Saturday, so I might replace it with the other cardio I haven't done yet: Tabatacise!)

And each week of the rotation pretty much follows that pattern, although the two upper body weight workouts get switched out for the two "Burn Sets" workouts the next week, which work the same muscles but with somewhat heavier weights. Then, there is one more workout called Supercuts that is a metabolic conditioning workout with light-ish weights. I'm not sure when that one gets included but probably in place of either Hard Strikes or All Out.

I want to stick with this rotation at least another week so I can get in all the workouts I haven't done yet, then I might customize the rotation to get it down to 4-5 days a week.

And, my summary of this post:
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Old 01-04-2013, 05:28 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by shelley View Post
Hi...first of all, the most accurate test is first thing in the AM....the PM test gives you a reading based on what you've been eating/doing. I've read that in several places.

Next, I lived in India for 2.5 years and I can tell you that it will be EASY to stay on plan there!!!! They do lots of fish and chicken dishes and lots of coconut milk and curries that are definitely on plan. And their veggies are good too!!! I was 50# lighter than I am today when living there!!!!! True!
thats good to hear....
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Old 01-04-2013, 06:08 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by tablis View Post
Hi everyone,
so i am looking back over my spreadsheets- its a good thing I transfered FD to excel bc there doesn't seem to be a good way to pull up and analyze old entries... is there?
You can go back to any particular day using the calendar, but I find the process cumbersome (at least on the free version that I use). Transfering the data to excel works best for me too.
Quote:
anyway- overall my days ended up averaging 75% fat, carbs under 30 and protein about 55-60. For an average of 1550 cals. The first couple of weeks my fat and protein were higher (80-90 gms protein) but then I scaled it back when I saw it wasn't working.
I'm 5 feet, small framed and have a lot to lose (70 lbs to 'goal weight' but 50-60 would be good too!).
Thanks all.
Hi tablis,
Just a few more questions to really get to the bottom of this. What is your current weight and goal weight? Are you on any medications? Have you been tested for thyroid and hormones? Also, could you list out the foods and quantities of a typical day's menu for you?
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Old 01-04-2013, 06:13 AM   #72
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jbatchelor!

Quote:
Originally Posted by jbatchelor View Post
hello everyone--so glad to have found this thread! Thanks Kristn for doing another thread-I have read all your other ones and was thrilled to see this one-I am coming in a few days late--happy Belated Birthday!

I admit to being confused even after reading all the other threads-I am just not able to "get it" figured out-all these numbers! not a math person! but I am hoping that the more I just dive in and do it I will see it fall into place?
I am thankful for all the help that has been given so freely in the previous threads--so I have picked up some knowledge!

Looking forward to getting to knowing you all better! Thanks again for sharing your knowledge to all of you!
It does take a bit of math and then some adjustment to really get this going. It looks like you've lost a lot already--congratulations!!

Do you have either of the books? Are you planning to use a meter?

Tell us a bit about what you've done so far and what you're currently doing. Your goal weight and goal body fat % are also helpful in figuring out protein requirements.

Last edited by mom2zeke; 01-04-2013 at 06:28 AM..
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Old 01-04-2013, 06:17 AM   #73
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Hi Jbatchelor!! I suggest finding and using a food tracker. I couldn't survive without mine. It was a pain to get use to in the beginning but so worth the effort.

I am still waiting for my meter and sticks. The kind lady I spoke with on the phone was quite certain that they would be in today but she said that yesterday....If not, I have to wait until Monday. What can you do?

Last edited by clackley; 01-04-2013 at 06:19 AM..
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Old 01-04-2013, 06:19 AM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Haycyn View Post
I am new here. But not new to stalling . I went to the doctor bc of it. They did the testing for thyroid and etc, but when they checked my BP it was elevated. I was having a reaction to Mirena. I went LC after I had it out, so I really don't know if it was the Mirena w the wt loss or the LC. There is talk in Internet land of Cortisol levels and lack of sleep stalling people. And as always, lack of exercise.

---------

I was eating approx 125f 125p and 7c. I have been eating a can of salmon 3x/w. 3 eggs, 3 strips bacon, and 2 sausages breakfast. If not salmon at lunch an egg or two. And supper is a few hburger patties or equivalent. Hey I was low carb . I had no idea. I love salad and I hope I can fit that in here.

I am still on the coffee for now. Surprisingly good w one tblspoon CO.
Eating lots of protein works until it doesn't. Heck, I lost 90 pounds eating that way and it was awesome.

If you're trying for nutritional ketosis your protein is probably too high. Did you see my post on trying to figure out your protein requirements here? Let me know if my assumptions are wrong and I can re-do the numbers.
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Old 01-04-2013, 06:23 AM   #75
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Lindsay, your ketone levels look great but I still think you are over exercising. It is about putting stress on your body and therefore creating a situation that demands that it hangs onto everything. Could you consider reducing it or stopping all together for a couple of weeks and seeing if that has a positive result?
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Old 01-04-2013, 06:44 AM   #76
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Haycyn, some of us who have done LC for a long time have found that the extra protein is converted to glucose through gluconeogenesis. We have had to cut the ptn to the lower end of the scale to get things moving again. Once we tested, we found we were NOT in the range to be able to use our body fat for fuel because the extra ptn was being used to make glucose and we weren't making enough ketones.
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Old 01-04-2013, 07:07 AM   #77
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Thanks for the welcome--I lost the majority of my weight about 6 years ago-and have been at this weight or a little lower--I have gotten close to goal several times and then blew it! but I never seem to stay where I need to stay--I am weak! and such a carb addict--however now my blood sugars are beginning to show pre-diabetes and I know I have to address that issue because several members of my close family have diabetes..

I am using an online tracker and find it very helpful-I can see where it takes time getting used too-I have also ordered the free ketone meters but not sure I can afford the strips-unless my ship comes in and I win the lotto!

Kristn-my goal weight is probably 140--I keep 148 on my mind simply because that is my first goal! I don't have a clue about body fat percentage--this is where I am most confused--how to tell LBM from fat and when you are gaining muscle and losing fat-I know I read about the DEXA scan but I doubt that is in my future either-at least not soon-my history is that I have done lowcarb for my weight loss but this NK is all new except for the last two months of reading your threads... great info but my head still spins with the number stuff! I am so not a numbers person--still haven't figured out how to quote!! I am old! I am learning however and felt like I needed to jump in and get my feet wet and figure this out...I want to make it a lifestyle and not a diet.. that is my goal-I have always looked at it as a diet and I want to get that mindset totally changed this year... I feel I have a lot of fat left of this body and muscle to gain-I feel I didn't lose weight the right way and I lost mainly muscle mass ---so it is very important to me to retain and gain muscle mass if I can--I am almost 64 so I hope it is not too late?
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Old 01-04-2013, 07:33 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by drjlocarb View Post
Haycyn, some of us who have done LC for a long time have found that the extra protein is converted to glucose through gluconeogenesis. We have had to cut the ptn to the lower end of the scale to get things moving again. Once we tested, we found we were NOT in the range to be able to use our body fat for fuel because the extra ptn was being used to make glucose and we weren't making enough ketones.
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Old 01-04-2013, 07:45 AM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbatchelor View Post
Thanks for the welcome--I lost the majority of my weight about 6 years ago-and have been at this weight or a little lower--I have gotten close to goal several times and then blew it! but I never seem to stay where I need to stay--I am weak! and such a carb addict--however now my blood sugars are beginning to show pre-diabetes and I know I have to address that issue because several members of my close family have diabetes..
It looks like we have a lot in common! Hopefully trying NK will help you get to your goal.

Quote:
I am using an online tracker and find it very helpful-I can see where it takes time getting used too-I have also ordered the free ketone meters but not sure I can afford the strips-unless my ship comes in and I win the lotto!
What is your current macronutrient intake in both grams and percentages?

Quote:
Kristn-my goal weight is probably 140--I keep 148 on my mind simply because that is my first goal! I don't have a clue about body fat percentage--this is where I am most confused--how to tell LBM from fat and when you are gaining muscle and losing fat-I know I read about the DEXA scan but I doubt that is in my future either-at least not soon-my history is that I have done lowcarb for my weight loss but this NK is all new except for the last two months of reading your threads... great info but my head still spins with the number stuff! I am so not a numbers person--still haven't figured out how to quote!! I am old! I am learning however and felt like I needed to jump in and get my feet wet and figure this out...I want to make it a lifestyle and not a diet.. that is my goal-I have always looked at it as a diet and I want to get that mindset totally changed this year... I feel I have a lot of fat left of this body and muscle to gain-I feel I didn't lose weight the right way and I lost mainly muscle mass ---so it is very important to me to retain and gain muscle mass if I can--I am almost 64 so I hope it is not too late?
It's never too late! If you don't have a BF% goal another good place to start for protein grams is the Optimal Diet formula. It is basically your goal weight in kg +/- 10% (I am simplifying this--for more details google the Optimal Diet).

That would be: 140/2.2 = 64
The +/- protein gram range would be 58-70

This is just a starting point. If you are limited in testing I would eat at this protein level with low carbs (20-25g) for at least 2 weeks before your first test (you don't want to waste the strips). At that point if you are in ketosis and you'd like to experiment with higher protein levels then I would test after a week of changed levels.

I believe that if you eat enough protein you will probably not lose LBM (although 10% of your fat mass is LBM and this will be lost along with the fat). But to gain LBM you will need to do resistance training 2 - 3x week.
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Old 01-04-2013, 07:52 AM   #80
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Post off-plan meal (Tuesday) stats:

Wed: Ketones .2, Weight 147.6
Thurs: Ketones .2 Weight 148.2
Friday: Ketones .1 Weight 148

TOM also arrived yesterday. I would like to be back in ketosis and down to 145 by 1/15 (two weeks after the off-plan meal). It's interesting to me that after two days back on plan my ketones were lower this morning. I guess it takes a while for the glucose to work its way out of my system.
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Old 01-04-2013, 08:05 AM   #81
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Thanks Kristn

Here are my totals from yesterday--also had 3 small fat bombs that I didn't know how to calculate?

Calories--1108 low but fat bombs should have helped there?
Fat 82.5 g 66%
Carb 26.7 9%
Prot 67.1 25%

Thanks for the help --this is a most helpful group!

Jeanne
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Old 01-04-2013, 08:16 AM   #82
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Quote:
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Thanks Kristn

Here are my totals from yesterday--also had 3 small fat bombs that I didn't know how to calculate?
What do you put in your fat bombs? Add all of the macros from each ingredient together and then divide by the number of servings. I have done this and then made the individual fat bomb a custom food on my tracker. Usually each one is 100+ calories with a small amount coming from carbs and protein, but mostly fat.

Quote:
Calories--1108 low but fat bombs should have helped there?
Fat 82.5 g 66%
Carb 26.7 9%
Prot 67.1 25%

Thanks for the help --this is a most helpful group!

Jeanne
The fat bombs probably added 300+ calories, so not too low. Figure out your fat bomb fat/protein/carbs and then add them in. It's a PITA, but it's really important to track everything carefully when you're first starting this.
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Old 01-04-2013, 08:27 AM   #83
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I used equal amounts of almond butter, butter, coconut oil and then sweetened with a smidgen of stevia and liquid splenda.. I will make sure I make them a custom food the next time for sure--which is coming up soon...it sure is eye-opening using a tracker.. just had some avocado--wow-those things sure add up!!


forgot--I also added cocoa to make them chocolate!

Last edited by jbatchelor; 01-04-2013 at 08:28 AM..
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Old 01-04-2013, 09:12 AM   #84
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Morning!
I am back from being at my DS's house for several days this week. Got behind on all the threads I am active in so just going to jump back in here and get going again.

Ate on plan all week but no logging, actually haven't been logging since Nov. and no testing. Was able to test and weigh this morning, weight at 183, good, BS 82, good, BK 1 good so I am still doing great at staying on plan except for my slight derailing over Christmas.

Next week things at my house are absolutely back to normal and I hope to get to logging my food again. And, need to find some new recipes to try, am getting kind of bored with my usual menu. But, will finally have the time to do some more and better cooking.
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Old 01-04-2013, 09:18 AM   #85
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[QUOTE=Buffy45;16171050Was able to test and weigh this morning, weight at 183, good, BS 82, good, BK 1 good so I am still doing great at staying on plan except for my slight derailing over Christmas.
[/QUOTE]

Good? GREAT!

Buffy I threw an entire chicken into my big stockpot yesterday, added a couple of sticks of butter and the trinity. Our house smelled so darn good. We had chicken soup without noodles, obviously, and it was absolutely delicious. The chicken will be picked off today and I'll save portions for broth, but what a great thing - thanks for mentioning this here and there.
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Old 01-04-2013, 09:22 AM   #86
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Judy, so glad you enjoyed my version of chicken broth. I have chicken on my list to pick up today and make the boiled chicken. I also am going to throw in an onion and some celery like, I think it was you, mentioned. Adding the butter just gives it so much flavor. I also really like boiled chicken, some people might not, but I love it with plenty of salt on it.
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Old 01-04-2013, 09:28 AM   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Buffy45 View Post
Judy, so glad you enjoyed my version of chicken broth. I have chicken on my list to pick up today and make the boiled chicken. I also am going to throw in an onion and some celery like, I think it was you, mentioned. Adding the butter just gives it so much flavor. I also really like boiled chicken, some people might not, but I love it with plenty of salt on it.
It was so tender - just falling apart and tasted so good.
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Old 01-04-2013, 09:36 AM   #88
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Both the meat and the broth freeze well too Judy. I try to make as much as I can at one time b/c it is kind of a pain to pick all that meat off the bones. I freeze my chicken in like 4oz ziplock bags and the broth in 3 cup containers.
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Old 01-04-2013, 09:50 AM   #89
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Buffy...you did great for being away from home and staying put with ketones and still losing more weight! Good for you!!!!!

You and Judy are making me hungry with your boiled chicken, butter and such. I'll have to get out my frozen one and get it ready for the crock pot!

Started testing ketones again yesterday to see where I land... was .1 yesterday and .2 today. I'm heading in the right direction! Finally. Never did get high ketones, and average was .6 to .8, so I'm slowly getting back there.
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Old 01-04-2013, 10:11 AM   #90
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Shelley, my ketones never get very high either but I am very happy with my weight loss. Just would like to see those higher numbers for the satisfaction of seeing them but it doesn't seem like it makes a whole lot of difference for me in the weight loss. Well, I guess I really don't know since I can't seem to get them very high anyway.

I cheated on Christmas day, a chocolate pie and I had quite an affair that day, and it seems like it took me forever to get back into ketosis. Would I do it over, oh my, I dream about that tall dark, handsome chocolate pie and always will
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