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Old 01-09-2013, 07:46 PM   #331
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Originally Posted by clackley View Post
I have no idea how I missed this but I did. Thanks Shelley for commenting on it. I really needed this info. Thank you Kristn - you made it quite understandable!!

I fell giddy with relief and almost to tears at the doc's. After so long and such effort - well I was starting to really doubt myself. I was considering myself a Zucker rat.....
Cathy...you'll have to let us know what the doc Rx'd for you. I just had more labs done for mine...TSH (which came with the "package blood test") and FT3 and FT4. I've been really stable for over a year so am anxious to see if I'm still on the right meds...or if I need a bit of a "tweak".

So, let us know what the doc has you taking....I'm crossing my fingers that it is not Synthroid only.......
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Old 01-09-2013, 08:31 PM   #332
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Originally Posted by mom2zeke View Post
Your body is always using both fat and sugar for fuel, what we want is for fat to be the main source of energy at all times. Having low ketones 1.-.4 shows that your body is producing some ketones, but they are not the main source of energy.

Hopefully someone can chime in on more of the science of all of this. But my understanding is that you can go in and out of ketosis throughout the day depending on exercise levels and food eaten. For instance, eating coconut oil or MCT oil will produce ketones for fuel even when you're not necessarily fully in ketosis.

Overnight your body uses and needs energy. If you have eaten enough protein for gluconeogenesis or you have enough glucose stored in your liver you can be knocked out of ketosis and back into sugar burning. My understanding is that we're trying to get into the state where this overnight glucose dump doesn't occur. This is confirmed by ketones over .5 upon waking. Like I said, someone help me out here if I'm wrong.
.
Hrm interesting, i guess i was confused or wrong. Not that i'm any less confused now.. I need to read these books faster!

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Originally Posted by bjjcaveman View Post
This was one reason I stopped testing myself in the evenings. I found that my evening numbers didn't correlate with my AM numbers.

One reason for this I was suspecting was the proximity of my meals and what I ate.

I know it takes around 2 hours to metabolize simple carbs... that's why they ask diabetics to check 2 hour post prandial blood sugars.

And we know that part of the reasons for the increased satiety we feel on a ketogenic diet are the fact that when we eat fats and proteins, these actually slow down digestion and require more time to process.

How much more time?

This is the question that I haven't found an answer to. Here is a separate forum thread I found where people discuss this.. but then numbers that i've seen people quote around the net are around 4-6 hours. It would be good to know if there are other scientific reasons for this.

But assuming this is true, assuming you eat a meal high in coconut oil and other fats, your body will be processing these macronutrients from the moment it hits your mouth to at least 4-6 hours out.

I suspect that this is the cause for the discrepancy in ketone readings between PM and AM readings. The PM readings can be affected by the ketones generated by something that was eaten 6 hours ago!

This is something that definitely bears more looking into.
Makes sense, i was not aware a meal high in the MCTs could give higher readings by themselves even to a sugar burner... i figured they would metabolize it differently, but again as above, im quite confused
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Old 01-09-2013, 09:55 PM   #333
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Heart Palpitations And Ketosis

For those who are experiencing heart palpitations while in ketosis, I just read this on reddit:

"What is “keto flu” and how long will I have it?
During the induction phase of a Ketogenic Diet, most people experience a horrid “flu” that often makes people believe from the start that it isn’t right for our bodies. Consider it the first test in one of your many trials to come. The flu is a manifestation of your mental and physical dependence on carbohydrates and the body is essentially going through a phase where it has to learn to use fat as fuel.

"Keto flu can be treated by replenishing your electrolytes. (See next section.)

"The flu-like symptoms should dissipate in a few days or weeks. But be warned: For as long as you eat low-carb, if you don’t take care to get enough sodium, potassium and magnesium (a.k.a. electrolytes) in your diet, you may experience fatigue, muscle twitching, headaches, muscle cramping, and in severe cases, arrhythmia. Leg cramps may be the most common sign that your electrolytes are out of balance."
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Old 01-09-2013, 10:32 PM   #334
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I did once and the numbers were exactly the same. I use the Precision Xtra system. I don't bleed easily, so for the first test, it turned out I did not have enough of a drop to generate a reading, so in desperation, to not waste the strip, I squeezed my finger to generate enough of a drop. I know squeezing to generate blood is a no-no. So, after I did that, I punctured my fingers several more times until my body spontaneously produced a drop of blood. That reading was exactly the same as the squeezed-out blood drop reading.
Oh thats great to know!

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Originally Posted by Buffy45 View Post
I'm still here and still NK but have been in the hospital with BP problems. Might not be posting as much but reading and keeping up. The nurses were so impressed with my low BS readings.
Feel better soon buffy45!

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Originally Posted by mom2zeke View Post
I'm just curious about your definitions of NK vs. ketosis. Aren't they really the same thing, or am I missing something?
glad you asked that...
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Old 01-10-2013, 04:17 AM   #335
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This is what Kristn said in post #281

"But my understanding is that you can go in and out of ketosis throughout the day depending on exercise levels and food eaten. For instance, eating coconut oil or MCT oil will produce ketones for fuel even when you're not necessarily fully in ketosis.

Overnight your body uses and needs energy. If you have eaten enough protein for gluconeogenesis or you have enough glucose stored in your liver you can be knocked out of ketosis and back into sugar burning. My understanding is that we're trying to get into the state where this overnight glucose dump doesn't occur. This is confirmed by ketones over .5 upon waking. Like I said, someone help me out here if I'm wrong."

Wow, this has given me an idea of why my fasting blood glucose is much higher now than when I was losing weight at the end of October/November/early December. It might also help explain why I am stuck and not losing again

I was using coconut oil throughout the day either in my coffee/tea or eating fat bombs made with coconut oil. Since the week before Christmas I've been eating a lot of fat in the form of cream cheese/butter but only having coconut oil in my coffee very early in the morning. I'm making some more of the fat bombs from Rebecca's recipe with coconut oil to use in the evening. Also I have some coconut manna (which I wasn't crazy about) which I could try using in the evening if I am hungry.

Anyway, thanks Kristn maybe this will help me get going with weight loss again!
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Old 01-10-2013, 05:01 AM   #336
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LovePBandJ View Post
I did once and the numbers were exactly the same. I use the Precision Xtra system. I don't bleed easily, so for the first test, it turned out I did not have enough of a drop to generate a reading, so in desperation, to not waste the strip, I squeezed my finger to generate enough of a drop. I know squeezing to generate blood is a no-no. So, after I did that, I punctured my fingers several more times until my body spontaneously produced a drop of blood. That reading was exactly the same as the squeezed-out blood drop reading.
Oh no! Why is squeezing the finger to get a bigger drop a no-no?? I have to do that nearly every time I test. I always get a little drop after the prick but it's never enough to complete a ketone test without squeezing some more out.
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Old 01-10-2013, 05:15 AM   #337
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Buffy sorry to hear that!!Hope you get better soon,we always miss your sweet face here!!
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Old 01-10-2013, 05:22 AM   #338
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Originally Posted by Buffy45 View Post
I'm still here and still NK but have been in the hospital with BP problems. Might not be posting as much but reading and keeping up. The nurses were so impressed with my low BS readings.
Hope you are back on track by the time you read this Buffy!

Shelley, I am on a tiny does of Synthroid (25).....too soon to see any effects and it may be too small a dose to do anything. I get retested in 2 months.

My ketone # this morning are and fasting b.g. 4.6 (or 82.8).
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Old 01-10-2013, 05:51 AM   #339
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Originally Posted by mom2zeke View Post
I'm just curious about your definitions of NK vs. ketosis. Aren't they really the same thing, or am I missing something?
As I understand things, which doesn't mean much, ketosis is when your body is producing ketones as a result of a LC diet. Keto-adapted or AKA nutritional ketosis is when your body is fully fat burning, which takes a few weeks of ketosis to achieve.

I realized that I probably read a different book than you. I read The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate PERFORMANCE. This period of adaptation is mentioned several times in the PERFORMANCE version of the Art and Science series (series of two ). It also differentiates the types of exercises which are better suited to a keto-adapted athlete (weight training, endurance sports) and those which are not (activities which involve quick bursts and movements). That said, Dr. Attia noted in his blog that over a period of months of keto-adaptation, those sprint event times had improved.

Anyhow, I am excited to get back into NK as I perform much better in my weight training sessions. I am in that window, but I think short of a VO2 test, I can only hope.

I also hope that since it appears relatively easy for my body to produce high levels of ketones, that may mean, once deep into ketosis, I can justify a few french fries now and again. I will be testing this Here's hoping!

Last edited by LovePBandJ; 01-10-2013 at 06:06 AM..
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Old 01-10-2013, 05:59 AM   #340
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Originally Posted by UnstrungHarp View Post
Oh no! Why is squeezing the finger to get a bigger drop a no-no?? I have to do that nearly every time I test. I always get a little drop after the prick but it's never enough to complete a ketone test without squeezing some more out.
I really don't know why it is a bad thing. I just read it in the instructions. Although, when I squeezed and when I didn't squeeze gave me the exact same results. So, it doesn't seem that squeezing impacted the result! So, it may not be such a bad thing.
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Old 01-10-2013, 06:04 AM   #341
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also, and I thought you guys might enjoy and interesting experiment a friend of mine and I did. We both did a BK test on someone who was not eating a ketogenic diet. My person and my friend's person both had BK results of .2.
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Old 01-10-2013, 06:11 AM   #342
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LovePBandJ View Post
As I understand things, which doesn't mean much, ketosis is when your body is producing ketones as a result of a LC diet. Keto-adapted or AKA nutritional ketosis is when your body is fully fat burning, which takes a few weeks of ketosis to achieve.
I think that we're thinking the same thing. Fully keto adapted vs. going in and out of ketosis or producing ketones some of the time. I guess I also sometimes use ketosis to mean keto adapted or NK.

Quote:
I realized that I probably read a different book than you. I read The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate PERFORMANCE. This period of adaptation is mentioned several times in the PERFORMANCE version of the Art and Science series (series of two ). It also differentiates the types of exercises which are better suited to a keto-adapted athlete (weight training, endurance sports) and those which are not (activities which involves quick bursts and movements). That said, Dr. Attia's noted in his blog that over a period of months of keto-adaptation, those sprint event times had improved.
I've read both of the books, and I like the Performance book more than the Living book because it has more detail on the process of getting into ketosis and NK. I think using a meter is a brilliant step in the process, but I wish it was more affordable.

Quote:
Anyhow, I am excited to get back into NK as I perform much better in my weight training sessions. I am in that window, but I think short of a VO2 test, I can only hope.
What type of weight training do you do? I took a long break from heavy lifting due to overtraining and then a physical impediment to lifting that was fixed by surgery. I have been doing kettlebell training for the past 6 months and I really like it. I'm not sure when (or if) I'll go back to the weight room, but I keep thinking about it.

Quote:
I also hope that since it appears relatively easy for my body to produce high levels of ketones, that may mean, once deep into ketosis, I can justify a few french fries now and again. I will be testing this Here's hoping!
The only way to know is to test. It looks like you're at goal right now, what is your weight-loss history? I think that plays into how easy ketosis is and how much leeway you have in NK.
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Old 01-10-2013, 06:13 AM   #343
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Originally Posted by LovePBandJ View Post
I really don't know why it is a bad thing. I just read it in the instructions. Although, when I squeezed and when I didn't squeeze gave me the exact same results. So, it doesn't seem that squeezing impacted the result! So, it may not be such a bad thing.
I sometimes squeeze when enough doesn't come out. It's probably just to keep you from hurting your fingers as I can't see how it would effect the contents of your blood drop.
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Old 01-10-2013, 06:22 AM   #344
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Good morning everyone!

This is day 3 of ketones over .5. I like the way the bjjcaveman posts his stats, so I'm going to copy him:

Weight: 147.6 ->148.2 ->148 ->147 ->147.2 -> 147.2 -> 147 -> 146.8 -> 146
AM Ketones: 0.2 -> 0.2 -> 0.1 -> 0.2 -> 0.3 -> 0.3 -> 0.8 -> 1.0 -> 1.2

I felt pretty bad again yesterday. I have to think that this is part of the keto adaptation process because I'm not actually coming down with the flu. I decided to skip kettlebells yesterday and start up again on Saturday. Hopefully today will be a better day.

This is definitely a good incentive not to go off-plan with such gusto any time soon. The re-entry process has been kind of painful.
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Old 01-10-2013, 06:24 AM   #345
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My ketone # this morning are and fasting b.g. 4.6 (or 82.8).
Good morning Cathy! I missed your ketone number.
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Old 01-10-2013, 06:40 AM   #346
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also, and I thought you guys might enjoy and interesting experiment a friend of mine and I did. We both did a BK test on someone who was not eating a ketogenic diet. My person and my friend's person both had BK results of .2.
Are these people dieting or working out hard?
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Old 01-10-2013, 06:44 AM   #347
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As I understand things, which doesn't mean much, ketosis is when your body is producing ketones as a result of a LC diet. Keto-adapted or AKA nutritional ketosis is when your body is fully fat burning, which takes a few weeks of ketosis to achieve.


I also hope that since it appears relatively easy for my body to produce high levels of ketones, that may mean, once deep into ketosis, I can justify a few french fries now and again. I will be testing this Here's hoping!
I say correct on the first part.

The second part....I would add more veggies. French fries don't count. Well, maybe a few.
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Old 01-10-2013, 06:48 AM   #348
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I'm still here and still NK but have been in the hospital with BP problems. Might not be posting as much but reading and keeping up. The nurses were so impressed with my low BS readings.
I hope you are better soon. Could it be linked to the pain from the headache you have been fighting forever?
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Old 01-10-2013, 06:50 AM   #349
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The scale finally went down a pound. New number. I have been basically stalled for almost two years. Tried many different things, with some time off for pouting. Finally! Seeing that new number almost makes me cry.
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Old 01-10-2013, 06:58 AM   #350
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I'm new here and started NK last week. I'm a member of *** and there are a bunch of us there doing NK as a way to get healthier and to drop fat. I started on the 2nd and have noticed that my clothes are getting looser. I'm not doing any ketone testing right now, can't afford it at the moment so holding off until I can. I have noticed I go to the bathroom more often and my breath is getting that tinny taste. I feel really great and my sleep has improved immensely. I'm just here looking into more research from your end. I do follow Dr. Attia's blog as well.


If you are losing weight, I would also put off testing. Good luck!
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Old 01-10-2013, 07:03 AM   #351
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For those who are experiencing heart palpitations while in ketosis, I just read this on reddit:

"What is “keto flu” and how long will I have it?
During the induction phase of a Ketogenic Diet, most people experience a horrid “flu” that often makes people believe from the start that it isn’t right for our bodies. Consider it the first test in one of your many trials to come. The flu is a manifestation of your mental and physical dependence on carbohydrates and the body is essentially going through a phase where it has to learn to use fat as fuel.

"Keto flu can be treated by replenishing your electrolytes. (See next section.)

"The flu-like symptoms should dissipate in a few days or weeks. But be warned: For as long as you eat low-carb, if you don’t take care to get enough sodium, potassium and magnesium (a.k.a. electrolytes) in your diet, you may experience fatigue, muscle twitching, headaches, muscle cramping, and in severe cases, arrhythmia. Leg cramps may be the most common sign that your electrolytes are out of balance."


This is so important to know. I think many people get scared that this isn't good for them when they experience induction flu.
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Old 01-10-2013, 07:16 AM   #352
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Good morning everyone.
Thank you so much for all the well wishes, they mean a lot to me.

I am down another 2/10's of a lb and was able to stick to LC while in the hospital. Didn't have much to choose from but I also didn't have hardly any appetite so it wasn't hard. I was kept in ER almost 24 hours as they didn't have a bed available for me on the floor. So, first meal was there and they hadn't specified a diet so I was able to order a ham/cheese omelet and bacon. Then they moved me to the cardiac wing and when I tried to order the same they said I could only have a veggie omelet and no bacon, so had that. The third and last meal, again ordered a veggie omelet and they said I could have bacon but when it came, it was rubbery chicken bacon and a egg beater omelet, . The evening that I was in and not in ER, DD brought me some raspberries, splenda and HWC which was soo good.

I am so happy to read about some of you having losses and continuing to follow and learn more about NK. It is confusing and I truly don't understand it all, I just know that I have to keep the carbs low to stay in NK and I am losing.

I have to say that I had been thinking of making a Dr. appt. to discuss lowering my BP drugs since I have lost this weight and have been eating LC for over 4 months, only to be bowled over by the spike in BP that took me to the ER. I will make another post to tell you all what happened. So, it doesn't look like I will be lowering BP meds now but hopefully in the future.

Oh, the nurses at the hospital were really amazed at how low my BS readings were, being a diabetic. I just said that I didn't eat hardly any carbs.
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Old 01-10-2013, 07:27 AM   #353
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Good to hear you are out of the hospital Buffy!!

My ketone # was 2.6 this morning!! (half awake when posting - I guess).

Nutritional ketosis in my understanding means a state of ketosis brought on by dietary choices as opposed to starvation. If one is not fully keto adapted but in ketosis due to diet, they are in n.k.. Just my humble opinion.
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Old 01-10-2013, 07:51 AM   #354
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Buffy--I'm so glad that you're home from the hospital!! That must have been quite a scare.

Quote:
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Nutritional ketosis in my understanding means a state of ketosis brought on by dietary choices as opposed to starvation. If one is not fully keto adapted but in ketosis due to diet, they are in n.k.. Just my humble opinion.
This has been my understanding also. It feels like anyone making conscious dietary choices to get into a steady state of ketosis is following NK. But perhaps the definition of NK is evolving along with the practice? It's such a new thing that I don't know that it's been fully defined to the satisfaction of those of us who would like it to be.
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Old 01-10-2013, 07:55 AM   #355
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Buffy--I'm so glad that you're home from the hospital!! That must have been quite a scare.



This has been my understanding also. It feels like anyone making conscious dietary choices to get into a steady state of ketosis is following NK. But perhaps the definition of NK is evolving along with the practice? It's such a new thing that I don't know that it's been fully defined to the satisfaction of those of us who would like it to be.
Thanks, I am glad to be home and hopefully on the road to recovery.

You said it all here, it is such a new thing, at least to me, that I am so anxious for more to be written on it and hopefully written so that I can fully grasp it and understand it.
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Old 01-10-2013, 07:56 AM   #356
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Cathy, I would love to see a ketone reading like yours!

Mine seldom get above 1 but I am doing well so won't complain but it has to be satisfying to see those numbers.
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Old 01-10-2013, 08:05 AM   #357
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If ketone #s = weight loss I would be very happy as well but in my case they do not - yet.
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Old 01-10-2013, 08:08 AM   #358
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Posts: 309
Gallery: tablis
WOE: NK
Start Date: 10/29/2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by mom2zeke View Post
Good morning everyone!

This is day 3 of ketones over .5. I like the way the bjjcaveman posts his stats, so I'm going to copy him:

Weight: 147.6 ->148.2 ->148 ->147 ->147.2 -> 147.2 -> 147 -> 146.8 -> 146
AM Ketones: 0.2 -> 0.2 -> 0.1 -> 0.2 -> 0.3 -> 0.3 -> 0.8 -> 1.0 -> 1.2

I felt pretty bad again yesterday. I have to think that this is part of the keto adaptation process because I'm not actually coming down with the flu. I decided to skip kettlebells yesterday and start up again on Saturday. Hopefully today will be a better day.

This is definitely a good incentive not to go off-plan with such gusto any time soon. The re-entry process has been kind of painful.
i like this way of posting stats too. I think its helpful to everyone... as soon as i have any I'll post em
sorry you are feeling so awful... hope it passes soon
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Old 01-10-2013, 10:15 AM   #359
Junior LCF Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Johnstown, Ohio
Posts: 35
Gallery: Georgette76
Stats: 210/200/150
WOE: LCHF/Nutritional Ketosis/Primal
Quote:
Originally Posted by SFGirl99 View Post
"Keto flu can be treated by replenishing your electrolytes. (See next section.)

"The flu-like symptoms should dissipate in a few days or weeks. But be warned: For as long as you eat low-carb, if you don’t take care to get enough sodium, potassium and magnesium (a.k.a. electrolytes) in your diet, you may experience fatigue, muscle twitching, headaches, muscle cramping, and in severe cases, arrhythmia. Leg cramps may be the most common sign that your electrolytes are out of balance."
I have noticed that with the supplements and the Knorr Bouillon and butter in my bone broth, I don't get these symptoms as severely. I worked out yesterday morning using level 1 of Jillian Michaels 30 day shred and have virtually no muscle soreness or cramping. I still get a periodic headache, but nothing that makes me want to cry.
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Old 01-10-2013, 10:30 AM   #360
Junior LCF Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Houston
Posts: 13
Gallery: LovePBandJ
Stats: 130 - At Goal
WOE: HFLC
Start Date: October, 2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by drjlocarb View Post
Are these people dieting or working out hard?
My friend asked his sister to fast. The other was my husband, not in a fasted state. Interestingly, at Christmas when I decided to let my nutritional ketosis go I did so in glory with a Chinese Buffet. Before the buffet I had a 2.9 reading. Post buffet, my reading was .2. As a result of these three situations I have generally come to think of .2 as a normal person's reading. I don't know if that is true or not. Just my own experience.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mom2zeke View Post

What type of weight training do you do? I took a long break from heavy lifting due to overtraining and then a physical impediment to lifting that was fixed by surgery. I have been doing kettlebell training for the past 6 months and I really like it. I'm not sure when (or if) I'll go back to the weight room, but I keep thinking about it.



The only way to know is to test. It looks like you're at goal right now, what is your weight-loss history? I think that plays into how easy ketosis is and how much leeway you have in NK.
I mix it up, but today was my strength training. I do all of the basic compound lifts: deadlift, benchpress, squats, lunges, fly, overhead. My weights aren't really all that heavy in comparison to those who truly do lift heavy, but they are just the right amount of heavy for me.

My WL history is that I have lost 25 pounds since July, putting me back at a weight that is more "normal" for me. To get rid of the last five pounds I tried this LCHF avenue and, much to my surprise, I lost ten. That was in October. Once I achieved my goal I went back to a normal diet and realized how much better my body felt eating LCHF. Now I am trying to figure out how to do this as a lifestyle. So, I am very new to all of this, but learning so much everyday, thanks to sites like this one.

My current bodyfat is around 18%, to which I credit the LCHF lifestyle.
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