High Fat NK 80/15/5 - January Version

[reddarin]

Hello Everyone!

Welcome to January's High Fat 80/15/5 NK thread!

Our goal is a healthy LC high fat macro and mandatory daily protein regimen resulting in a state of Nutritional Ketosis. The ideal ratios would be 80/15/5 F/P/C but the execution is to eat the required protein amount in grams and filling out the rest of your calories in fat with carbs being as low as possible.

So as long as you are eating your required protein, any day that results in 65+% Fat macro is a win. If you can reach 80%+ so much the better but it is only a goal to strive for not a mandate.

Protein

First determine your protein requirements. There are several ways to do it. You need to know the appropriate goal weight for a person of your height and frame size. Your protein is calculated from it so it is important.

Dr. Phinney defined the appropriate protein range as being between 1.5 and 2.0 grams per kg of ideal weight. The formula looks like this:

Your goal kg is (goal_weight/2.2) so (goal_weight/2.2)*1.5 = protein grams daily.

There are other ways of determining protein grams. Phinney specifically stated that .8g/kg is not enough protein for an LC way of eating.

Be aware that there are few if any overt signs of protein deficiency until there is a crisis situation with your body. So. Take care not to eat too little protein.

Adequate protein consumption protects your lean body mass - essentially, everything that is not fat is LBM. Eating too little protein can result in .25 to 1 pound of LBM loss a day!

Calories

You can't lose weight if you are consuming far more calories than expending.

There are a lot of BMR (Basal Metabolic Rate) calorie calculators on the web. These calculators can give you a guesstimate on a daily calorie goal.

Dr. Phinney gives a range of 30-35kCal per goal kg weight. He states that 35kCal is the norm and 30kCal is for a very sedentary individual.

Phinney's formula for daily calories: ((goal_weight/2.2)*30) or ((goal_weight/2.2)*35).

So, if your goal weight is 150 then (150/2.2)*35 = 2386. ~2400 calories is what a normally active person that has a correct weight of 150 pounds would burn daily.

Once you know your protein grams and have an idea of your daily calorie goal you can work on getting there with a combination of protein and fat.

On calories, consider this post if you think that you have to have very low calories to lose weight.

Very low calorie diets will result in LBM loss. Lose your body fat not your LBM by keeping your calories up.

Establish what you should be eating at goal weight and start there. Work your way down slowly if you must but the best way to do it is to start high and work downwards.

Macros

Hear me loud and clear on this because it is important - macro ratios are a valuable tool but they can be very misleading because relative percentages are deceptive. The three macros and the fourth control (calories) form a rubber band that can stretch into some surprising shapes but still look like a well formulated LC regimen when it is not. So read this part carefully.

You know your protein and you know what Phinney has to say about calories so how do you get your macros?

Phinney states that NK is reached with 65-85% Fat / ideal protein consumption / under 50g Total Carbs a day.

Going with Phinney's daily caloric expenditure of 35*kg and using our 150 pound example:

(150/2.2)*35 = 2386 calories.
(150/2.2)*1.5 = 102g protein.

Protein is 4 calories per gram and fat is 9 calories per gram so...

(102*4)= 408
408/2386= 17% for our protein macro percentage.

If we commit all remaining calories to fat... 2386-408 = 1978 -> 1978/9 = 220 grams of fat. Stay with me.

How much, as a percentage, is that of total calories? 1978/2386 = ~83%

Right now your macros look like this: 83/17/0

Phinney gave the range of fat ratio for NK as 65 to 85 percent. That range is where your total carb grams come from. Using the formulas described so far you will not be over 82% fat unless your protein is under goal grams.

This fat macro % range is also where you get your flexibility on calorie goals too.

You can eat ~30g total carbs and still be in the 70% bracket for your fat macro. Pushing closer to the ceiling of 50 total grams pushes your fat macro down to the 65% area.

Macros II

Having worked through how to figure out your macros I wanted to reiterate what I said earlier about them. They are a tool. Use them to inform you but recognize their weakness and potential to mislead you.

For example, say you are planning what you are about to eat or what you will eat for the day. You get your protein grams right but your fat macro is 60%. You can see right there that either your calories are too low or your carbs are too high. Or your carbs are too high if your calories are right.

On the other hand your percentages could look spiffy, say 73/20/7, but your calories are way too low which means you are very low on protein and your LBM is at risk. See what I mean?

You could forego the whole rigmarole and just use absolute grams for fat, protein and carbs and be good too but you need to keep an eye on calories to make sure you are eating enough.

Fat

A quick word about Fat because it is important. Not all Fat is created equal. Soy oil is not a good fat - it is a highly polyunsaturated fat. Use mono-unsaturated and saturated fats. Coconut oil, real butter, olive oil, animal fats, etc. If you aren't sure about the oil google it. Don't sabotage yourself by assuming what the Standard American Diet considers a 'healthy fat' is actually a healthy fat for LC.

Food Logging

There are several really good food loggers. Direct linking is not possible per the TOS of LCF so just google around. Try at least 3, using them at the same time, so you can get a feel for which one suits you best. Most of them have smart phone companion apps if that is important to you.

You really have to log your food if you are going to be successful at the challenge of 80/15/5. That doesn't make it a ball and chain that you are forever saddled with, but your short term goal is virtually undoable without accurately logging what you eat.

Daily/Weekly Weigh-Ins

Do you weigh in daily or weekly? Totally up to you! I weigh in daily because I like the constant feedback. *BUT*, if you choose to do daily weigh-ins you have to accept that daily weights are a snapshot in time only. They are interesting data points but that is all and they are meaningless without the context of time. In other words, weigh in daily if you want but pay attention to the trend not the individual snapshot of weight.

Consider the fact that per Phinney your body maintains about a 4 pound water weight window. Zero to 4 pounds of liquids sloshing around inside you. See this post for a pretty good explanation about this window and how it affects weigh-ins daily, weekly, even monthly.

Links of Interest

December's 80/15/5 thread.

A sodium thread I created.

Long Term Stalls podcast with Jimmy Moore and Dr. Phinney. I made a list of the things covered in the podcast with the time it is located at within the recording. It isn't all inclusive but it is thorough.

Sodium

Low carb - it is not a low sodium way of eating or living. You *must* get your sodium in or your body will suffer. It might suffer silently for a long time before it finally breaks. Or it might express itself as agonizing leg cramps. Those cramps are caused by dehydration and/or a potassium deficiency but if you are a low sodium consumer then your sodium deficiency is contributing to your potassium loss and dehydration. The body throws potassium overboard if it has to choose between potassium and sodium. That is how important sodium is to your body. Phinney advises 5 Grams of sodium daily! That is a lot of sodium. Fear not! Unless you are going out of your way to eat low sodium you are probably getting 2 to 4 grams in your food every day. A little extra use of the salt shaker will fix up most people just fine. It is worth taking a look at how much sodium you are getting if you use a food logger. Table salt is not one for one on sodium grams. Google for the conversion 'how much sodium in table salt'. If you've been a casual low sodium person then you should pay careful attention to what you are eating and shun your former salt scoffing ways.

Consider whatever health conditions you might have when contemplating how to address the sodium issue with your way of eating.

The body will cannabalize LBM for potassium if it has to. So, low sodium -> sacrifice potassium -> rob lean tissue for potassium -> poor LC results.

Supplements

If you aren't supplementing start now. It is important. Here are a few tips on it to get you started.

Most Americans, probably most people worldwide, are magnesium deficient. Magnesium is a wonder mineral that has far ranging benefits. For LC'rs, on top of all of the other wonderful things it does, it also helps with regularity. It is a must. Go easy! Here me now and avoid an unpleasant reaction. Don't go full dose all at once. Ramp up to whatever dose you set for yourself. Start at 1/4 to 1/2 the RDA and slowly go up over a week or two's time. If you react to your dose don't panic. It will pass. Lower the dose and take a little more time. I currently take 2xRDA. A good strategy is to buy a kind that is not a single pill dose so you can tailor your dosing.

Google 'LLVLC-ep-602-morley-robbins', it should be the first hit, for an excellent free podcast about this very important mineral.

Potassium. All LC'rs should probably be supplementing with potassium. Dr. Eades of Protein Power advises 4 of the 99mg pills while on induction and then 2 of the 99mg pills, I believe, afterwards. If you are experiencing cramps don't overlook water intake. Dehydration causes awful cramps too. The best thing is pure water. Even if your sodium is right you probably should still supplement with potassium because LC is a water shedding way of eating and that is where a lot of potassium exits the body.

Multi-vitamin. I doubt there are many LC'rs not taking a multivitamin but if you happen to be one, go to the store now and buy some. Really.

The rest. There are others that you probably should be taking daily too. Google 'atlcx-26-dr-jonny-bowden', it should be the first hit, for a free podcast that is excellent about supplements in general for LC. Jimmy Moore asks the fantastic question 'what are your trapped on a desert island choices'.

Notes

Join in the conversation any time. Feel free to ask any questions you have. We are all happy to help you. Lurkers are welcome too.

[reddarin]

Measuring Your Frame Size

Take your measurement on the forearm side (rather than the hand/finger side) of the wrist bone using a tape measure. Below are the various frame sizes per measurements for men and women. Once you know your frame size you can google 'height weight frame size chart' and find an appropriate goal weight for someone of your height and frame size.

Don't take it for granted that you are small framed or large framed. Measure it.

Women:

Height under 5'2"
Small = wrist size less than 5.5"
Medium = wrist size 5.5" to 5.75"
Large = wrist size over 5.75"

Height 5'2" to 5' 5"
Small = wrist size less than 6"
Medium = wrist size 6" to 6.25"
Large = wrist size over 6.25"

Height over 5' 5"
Small = wrist size less than 6.25"
Medium = wrist size 6.25" to 6.5"
Large = wrist size over 6.5"


Men:

Height over 5' 5"
Small = wrist size 5.5" to 6.5"
Medium = wrist size 6.5" to 7.5"
Large = wrist size over 7.5"

[reddarin]

Original Post:

Here is an interesting thought for those of you consuming very low calories daily or think that you have to eat very low calories to lose weight.

A ketogenic diet like the one we are doing is very similar to starvation metobolically speaking. The body reacts to a ketogenic diet in many ways the same as it would if you were really starving. But you aren't. You are eating the correct amount of protein which helps protect your LBM. So your body fat stores are released for use.

Now, follow me on this...

Your body is already 'starving'.

You choose to eat too few calories.

What will your body do? Panic. It is going to try hard to not lose weight because you are restricting calories too much for *you*. The body doesn't know what is going on or that you are tightly controlling calories - it just knows that the last x number of days it needed 3000 calories and you gave it 1400 calories. It panics. It releases cortisol which inhibits body fat usage. It does everything it can to survive this mysterious low calorie period.

So. If you are watching your calories and your body is not responding, try bumping up your calories a bit for a few days to see what happens. Remember that a daily scale reading is a snapshot not a trend and watch the trend.

------------

Original Post:

Re: calories.....I had a very good friend that went from 270# to 110# and she's a nutritionist (low carb/keto-adapted for years). She warned me to NEVER EVER lower my calories below 1550. Said that it will take away my LBM. For the last couple weeks or so, I lowered my calories from 1600 to the 1200 range (950-1350 or so) and then did my weekly average of LBM and fat %age per the Tanita. I lost 3# of LBM ad gained 3# of FAT!!!!!! And that was at the lower calories. So, I believe Major Red told us that he listened to a podcast that said just that....too low of calories will take away your lean body mass....and I am proof of that for the last 2 weeks calculations. It also trains the body to "need" less calories, so if you want to always stay that low for the rest of your life, you can lose weight now, and then will be stuck at those low calories.

[reddarin]

Weight Fluctuations

To paraphrase the esteemed Dr. Phinney....

Everyone has a 'window' of weight. The body is fairly lax about how much fluid it retains at any given time and this is generally about 4 pounds worth.

Think of it as one of those horizontal lava doodads with the blue fluid doing a seesaw motion.

So.

You are kicking butt and shedding weight. You weigh in at the low point on the seesaw with your fluid balance low.

A day or a week goes by and you weigh in again. You *have* lost 2 pounds. *But* the seesaw of fluid is now at its high end completely masking your 2 pounds and possibly even showing a gain.

The next day you weigh in again, having lost another .5 pound off your body for real but the blue fluid has tilted to its low end this time and WHOOSH you see a 5 pound drop!

That is why daily weigh ins are interesting but if you happen to be blessed with a wildly tilting blue doodad you are gonna have baffling daily, even weekly, weigh ins. Depending on how fine tuned your way of eating is and how fast or slow you lose weight, Phinney even pushed it out to a full month of this phenomenon masking a net loss - 1 pound a week lost for 4 pounds total for the month but your lava machine is tilted to the high point and you see a disappointing scale reading. No weight lost on the scale or even a few ounces gained.

[reddarin]

I posted something like this in our December thread but I think it is a very important thing to know going into the New Year. Particularly since there will be lots of people who set new goals for the new year only to have friends, family and coworkers torpedo them intentionally or unintentionally. Or even you spoiling your own goals or others because you do not recognize these terrible traits in yourself.

I was listening to a radio show and the topic for that hour was Happiness - it is always the topic for that particular hour of the week. Although guests are rare, this particular hour had a psychologist, Dr. Stephen Marmer. There is more to it but Dr. Marmer identified three traits in particular that are antithetical to being happy.

The three awful character traits are jealousy, covetousness and envy. In plain language these three are used interchangeably or are at least synonymous with each other.

Dr. Marmer said, though, that in psychology these three words describe distinct conditions/states like so:

---

I see a person with something and

Jealousy: ...I want one because that person has one. I am jealous. If I buy one for myself or someone buys one for me I have cured my jealousy.

Covetousness: ...I want *that* one. I want to take it away from that person and have it for myself.

Envy: ...I resent the fact that you have got something that I do not have and I am gonna knock it out of your hand and stomp on it because it bothers me more that you've got something that I don't have than for me to go out and get it myself.

---

My take on what the good doctor said and how you can use it for the new year...

That means that if you recognize that someone is actually envious of you then you can make an informed choice about how to proceed. If they are just an acquaintance of no consequence you can just ignore it and avoid them. Covetousness is probably a symptom of some other issue and, again, you can choose how much effort to put into identifying the real problem and resolving it with them depending on how valuable their relationship is to you. Is it merely jealousy? Maybe you can encourage them to satisfy their desire and resolve the issue easily.

[portcop01]

I'm in with you!!i reach my first goal to be 159 by the first and made it. I've lost 46 lbs since July.got 25 more to go.im always wanting to learn more!

[shelley]

Excellent Major Red!!!!! Just excellent.

I just came back here and realized that there were 2 threads (Major Red's and Kristn's) and both of them are now one??? Am I the only one that has had that happen to on my computer???

Strange....but I'll go check again.

[mizzcase]

I forgot to tell everyone this--- H.E.B. is the grocery store of the gods!! You Texans are SO lucky!

[SouthernGirl61]

Darin, great job getting the January thread going for us! Great info too, love re-reading it, so it doesn't get stale or forgotten.

Mizz, yes, we love our HEB! My family visits and we go to HEB for the bi-annual 2 hour shopping trip!

Hi Shelley! I am just to darned lazy to go back and read old threads...do you take a supplement for adrenal fatigue? I am on Adreset and not certain it is working well. PharmD recommend it.

Hi Becky! You are doing so good....are you still mainly egg/meat? I may try that to kick off this new year. Jump start it all.

[portcop01]

Yes SG I'm doing meat and eggs for 30 days,keeping my fat 70-85% I've lost from 165.6 to158.4 in 5 days?it got me back on track from thoses cookies I ate..the only thing that is hard I get full so fast and just don't want to eat,but I no I must...I do around 50-70 grams protein still.its working for now...

[portcop01]

For some reason I posted here and it showed up some ware else..yes SG doing meat and eggs with 70-85% fat I love it not hungry..I do two cups coffee with co, hwc, stevia 2 or 3 times a day...lost 6 lbs in 5 days

[JMCM1]

Yep - there's some mix-up on the links to the threads.

[cici52]

Oh, my. That's a whole lot of info, Red. Thanks so much for your diligence. Will read and refresh later.

[Blonde with a Rose]

Great info! I re-read everything again. I'm struggling a little but I'm here... lurking, listening and hopefully learning!

[Mistizoom]

Thank you for this thread! It's very informative.

[SouthernGirl61]

Originally Posted by portcop01

For some reason I posted here and it showed up some ware else..yes SG doing meat and eggs with 70-85% fat I love it not hungry..I do two cups coffee with co, hwc, stevia 2 or 3 times a day...lost 6 lbs in 5 days

Do you use the stevia crystals or liquid? The one I just got from Whole Foods is crystals, the leaf only, wow, it is really good, not bitter at all. I am more inspired by the loss you have with this! Is it just meat, or chicken/fish too? I'm fine with meat only!

I was in the middle of a post a while back when the threads were merged, it was very odd...but I guess it is fixed now!

[SouthernGirl61]

Originally Posted by Mistizoom

Thank you for this thread! It's very informative.

Welcome Mistizoom! The Oct, Nov, Dec Threads are full of good info, very long, but many great discussions!

[SouthernGirl61]

Originally Posted by Blonde with a Rose

Great info! I re-read everything again. I'm struggling a little but I'm here... lurking, listening and hopefully learning!

Hi Blonde! I am hoping that when work resumes tomorrow the routine will fall back in place. I have cleaned out the kitchen 100% as of today! We didn't fall far, but there was enough that should not be in our house! I froze some of it after Christmas, but today, I tossed it! Anything particular that is causing you grief?

[portcop01]

SG I use the liq..it has no carbs were the packs has 1 I eat lots of beef.but I do eat chicken fish or pork,I pour butter over it yummm..lots of water...I usaly have my coffee with co Steiva and hwc first thing..sorry water first thing to get your organs moving then coffee.about hour later 2 eggs cooked in butter.the more eggs I eat the more I lose..I usaly eat 3 eggs...steak and eggs are good.i make a hb but the egg on top..it can get boring but its only 30 days before I go to Puerto Rico .got see that 155...

[shelley]

Originally Posted by SouthernGirl61

Darin, great job getting the January thread going for us! Great info too, love re-reading it, so it doesn't get stale or forgotten.

Mizz, yes, we love our HEB! My family visits and we go to HEB for the bi-annual 2 hour shopping trip!

Hi Shelley! I am just to darned lazy to go back and read old threads...do you take a supplement for adrenal fatigue? I am on Adreset and not certain it is working well. PharmD recommend it.

Hi Becky! You are doing so good....are you still mainly egg/meat? I may try that to kick off this new year. Jump start it all.

I so agree about re-reading over and over again never getting "old". Seems I always pick up something I missed before. So much information.

I wish we had a HEB, whatever it is...or a Whole Foods, or a Trader Joes!

I do not take anything any more for adrenal fatigue. But that was 3 years ago when I tested nearly at the worst you could be (going into a coma was next!) It was no fun. I could not get any doc to do what I wanted to do (researched it), so ended up doing my treatment...took a long long time. I don't think it's wise for me to "put it out there", but you can easily find it on the yahoo groups for adrenals....I did what they recommended and it took "forever" and was very time consuming (dosing 5 times a day), but I got well. You can PM me if you want. It's not a secret, but not something I 'advertise" having done! ha ha

Becky....you are doing so great on your meat and eggs....I should probably do the same to get back into ketosis! I'm also going to try Major Red's coconut oil before bedtime (after dinner) and see if I can sleep...thought it gave energy? Hmmm.....it will be a good test.

[SouthernGirl61]

Originally Posted by portcop01

SG I use the liq..it has no carbs were the packs has 1 I eat lots of beef.but I do eat chicken fish or pork,I pour butter over it yummm..lots of water...I usaly have my coffee with co Steiva and hwc first thing..sorry water first thing to get your organs moving then coffee.about hour later 2 eggs cooked in butter.the more eggs I eat the more I lose..I usaly eat 3 eggs...steak and eggs are good.i make a hb but the egg on top..it can get boring but its only 30 days before I go to Puerto Rico .got see that 155...

You will get to that goal, I just know it! TY for the info. The stevia I bought has zero carbs, but I will go to their website and look up the complete info. It's very fine crystals, in a 1lb bag. I think it's EZ Sweet ??? I have the liquid too. Going off splenda to see if that is part of the problem.

[shunsweets]

Lurker checking in(glad to read we are welcome!). Red I love the jealousy/coveteous/envy thoughts. Not just so I can react to others who may display these traits but also to ferret out any trace of them in myself. Good goals for the New Year.

Continue to maintain well and keep blood glucose levels down with NK. May have slipped up with some fruit over the holidays but right back at it starting tomorrow.

[reddarin]

Originally Posted by shunsweets

Lurker checking in(glad to read we are welcome!). Red I love the jealousy/coveteous/envy thoughts. Not just so I can react to others who may display these traits but also to ferret out any trace of them in myself. Good goals for the New Year.

Continue to maintain well and keep blood glucose levels down with NK. May have slipped up with some fruit over the holidays but right back at it starting tomorrow.

Right?!? Knowing the distinction lets you address the real problem. Do I want to smash what that person has?? What is the real reason I feel that way?? Maybe I can fix that, stop feeling like that and be a happier, better person.

Wonderful!

[reddarin]

Originally Posted by shelley

I'm also going to try Major Red's coconut oil before bedtime (after dinner) and see if I can sleep...thought it gave energy? Hmmm.....it will be a good test.

I wonder what your results will be Shelley?

When I first started doing the T of CO as my last calories of the day, but always before 6pm, I did experience a bump in energy.

However, I took a full ounce of LouAnn CO an hour or so before turning off the light several days ago and had no trouble going to sleep. I was a little surprised.

So, does it mean that you build a tolerance to the energy bump?

There are some things that probably affect it:

I have been eating at least 2oz of CO every day for months now.

I am off plan and have been for, hmmmm, 8 days maybe. I was on for a week or so and off for a week or so before that. Anyway, on and off and on again while fighting the smoking thing (still smoke free though). At any rate, I was not in a keto-adapted state when I did the oz right before bed.

And, of course, I have red hair. That is always a factor. And the kick butt playlist for New Years.

[reddarin]

Originally Posted by Mistizoom

Thank you for this thread! It's very informative.

Hiya and welcome to our thread

[reddarin]

Well well well. I see I missed Gerry Rafferty on my playlist on the other thread too.

It would have been ...

Gerry Rafferty - Baker Street.

Not only is it a freakin excellent song/tune but it was also getting a lot of air play when I was a kid and I read a book titled 'Vultures Also Die' by James C. Luttrall. So I always think of that book when I hear this song. I bet I read it the year it came out in '77. [edit: Nope, Baker Street came out in '78 so that is when I read the book] I haven't read it since so I have only fond memories of what a cool story it was. Post apocalyptic too.

I think that we simply have too many awesome songs in the world. I vote we abolish all songs except for Tip Toe Through The Tulips by the original artist Tiny Tim. We should also make it the default ring tone for all phones.

[shelley]

Originally Posted by reddarin

I vote we abolish all songs except for Tip Toe Through The Tulips by the original artist Tiny Tim. We should also make it the default ring tone for all phones.

Oh no......I've got to run to the bathroom to heave!!!!! I had to switch the TV channel every time he came on with his ukelele. Hopefully this is a joke! But I do remember Gerry Rafferty! That makes 2 on your playlist that I recall!

[reddarin]

I can't believe that Cheryl recognized all of them except for Dev heh

[theLossgirl]

Hey All,

The link on the old December thread that should lead to this one doesn't work. Maybe I'm late to the party and everyone else knew this?

Red, as always, great job setting up the new January thread!

[jbatchelor]

Hello everyone--I am hoping I can join in here--I have been reading and reading and I admit to still being confused with all the math! I am hoping someone can lead me thru some of that and help me? I restarted again for the umpteenth time yesterday-I ate thru the month of December due to lots of emotional issues plus just plain eating off plan-so I was really ready to get back to business yesterday--I am also having some elevated blood sugar issues-so I know I need to stick with lowcarb and take care of that --diabetes is in my family..

I am 63
wrist is 6.25 on the right side-dominant
wrist is 6.5 on the left
goal weight is 140 or less?
current weight is 177-yesterday-yikes
height is 5'4"

I am so not a computer person but I am hoping I can figure some of this out? I really want to make this a lifelong way of eating and I did find a program yesterday to enter my food...I do have to cook for a skinny, eats a lot husband who will not be following lowcarb-he is a high carb snacker, and I have to be able to cook for him along with eating lowcarb for me--I believe that this is totally doable for the both of us!

Red-thanks so much for all the info-I have been reading on the last two months of posts-lots of info but I don't think you learn until you dive into it and start doing it? so if you or someone can help me with my numbers it will be appreciated so much.

Jeanne