High Fat NK 80/15/5 - January Version

[Punkin]

Originally Posted by reddarin

Hello Everyone!

Welcome to January's High Fat 80/15/5 NK thread![/indent]

Hi, I am very confused because I am in NK for health reasons such as stabilizing my insulin levels, and so for me, right now I want to maintain my weight. Do I use my current weight as my goal weight and then just use the same calculations?

What if someday I decide I want to gain weight? Would I base the calculations on the weight I would like to be? Ie. changing my goal weight to reflect a weight that I would like to be?

I don't have the book yet, so I was wondering if that is what I would do for that.

[dazygyrl]

Originally Posted by SouthernGirl61

Hi everyone! Very long day, hope everyone had a great day.
Buffy, you are the grandparent I want to be someday!
Deborah, I have heard wonderful reviews on Les Mis...my DD1 was in a production of it during the 8th grade, I sat thru long rehearsals....but really enjoyed it. Now, I need to go back to the theaters! Thanks for the review.
Barbara, where are you over the pond? I love that so many from different places join us here. I love sunrises too, I usually take a break from work to enjoy them, darn clouds this morning, it was just all gray!
Dazy, forgive me for memory issues...your height and other stats escape me. But I am 5'4" on a good day, former 5'5, spine failed me there...I aim for never lower than 1600 calories a day. That is on my routine, and I am one of the worst here to measure. It's hard to have set-fast rules here, as we all would require a complicated test to determine metabolism, and true body fat, etc....so using averages is what we do. I opinion that maintaining LBM is vital. Now, the body being exceptionally tolerate of punishment, will allow us to vary that and adjust. I have basically gone to the meat/egg the past few days, and lost about 2 lbs in that process. Getting rid of the pick up at the holidays. I am fine with limited variety, too busy at work to care about what I am eating for the most part. I supplement with cream cheese, mac nuts if I feel low energy. I am not good at the P/V science here, but have years of experience losing weight! I think it takes at least a week or so to rid the body of the poor choices; maybe longer. I practice eating when hungry. If I crave something sweet or carby, I immediately drink something to see if that fixes it....often it does....if not, I eat a small amount of CC or mac nut or a small amount of protein. Then, I stop and do something else and see if it was enough. Most of the time it is. Reading your body may take time....listen to it, and start simple again. I do not remember if you exercise, I think about it a lot....but mostly I walk a lot, at work, and DH and I take the dogs out afterwork for 30 minutes, before supper (hence dinner for those in other places!). Be patient with yourself, and tracking may help you, I am one to talk on that, but it has worked great for others. Now, about NOT going to a doctor.....make the appointment now. Tell the nurse that you do not wish to be weighed....the main reason for that is if prescriptions are to be given, and likely not in your case. But if you have something that could be dangerous, you will kick yourself for not addressing it. Simply tell the nurse to write that you are deferring it to the next visit. Or find a doc-in-the-box, and they will either re-assure you, or send you to a dermatologist to biopsy it. Self refer to a Derm if you know one.
Becky, you and Buffy are our models here! Congrats, 205 to 158 is such a great accomplishment! I have found the M/E to be very satisfying and no cravings...and limited cooking!!!!
Mizz, we will miss you in Texas! Almost back in school, yes?
Hi Cheryl! Oh my on the CO and heart racing. That happened to me at first.
Darin, you are making me feel better about phone issues! LC Swat Team...that's a mountain to climb!
Shelley, studies are interesting reads....and the first thing I watch is where it is published first. If it is main stream, then there's a lot to find out about it. Who paid for it is another thing. It's alarming how many studies are paid for by pharma and big food! Wonder why they skew them eh? It's usually bottom line....profits. This study was in the Wall Street yesterday, which is fairly credible....but I want to read further. they can skew results with not factoring in all the existing conditions....however, it is the group in the middle...that has shown the best results in the past...but keep in mind, they are talking about overweight...not obese. At this point, we need more information.
Hi Phillip, good report.
Oceana, your step mom must have been trying to keep up with Buffy's toffee making!
Deb, the book sounds like it's timely...wonder if we "older folks" can reverse the current trend of young America?
Hi and Welcome Haycyn! (that was three times to type correctly!!!) Wow, I would say follow what feels comfortable and works for you. NK takes tweaking for everyone. Most of us have had LC stalls to get where we are now. Eating too low can cause a stall, I'm an expert at that one. I eat protein first, to my minimum requirements to protect LBM....then I add fat for fun and a few carbs up to about 20-30, depending on veggies that day. I have severe food allergies, nightshades and nuts, thankfully aren't in that group. Get started and see what works for you.

thank you so, much for your thoughtful post, SG. i'm 5'4" and hate exercise i am no stranger to dieting either...been on this journey hardcore since '07 and have attained a very desirable weight at one point (wish it was 'good enough' at the time, you know how it is...never satisfied, what i would give to be that weight now)...staying there was another story evidently. but in all this time, my body doesn't speak...at least not in a way that is audible or discernible. the only thing it speaks loudly about is too much sugar, inflammation city! and that's with a lot...i can have some and it not bother. but this is a new thing since being low carb (started LC in may of '08 i think). anyway. i think i'm merely going to eat my protein requirements and watch my total carbs. and let the rest fall where it may.

oh, and am seeing the dr on monday morning. will defer the scale. my weight has nothing to do with my hand.

[reddarin]

Originally Posted by Punkin

Hi, I am very confused because I am in NK for health reasons such as stabilizing my insulin levels, and so for me, right now I want to maintain my weight. Do I use my current weight as my goal weight and then just use the same calculations?

What if someday I decide I want to gain weight? Would I base the calculations on the weight I would like to be? Ie. changing my goal weight to reflect a weight that I would like to be?

I don't have the book yet, so I was wondering if that is what I would do for that.

No.

You need to use your real "ideal" weight for the protein calculations.

That is because the protein grams can be critical for attaining NK - consistent blood ketone levels.

If you use your current weight and you are well over your ideal weight then you'll overconsume protein.

Now, that may not be an issue for several reasons. For example, your current weight and ideal weight are not very far apart. You are not very sensitive to protein in that it takes a lot to produce an insulin response in your body.

For the calorie calculations then you can use your current weight to get an idea of what level you should be eating at to maintain that weight.

I tell you what though, I think it'd be easier to just figure your protein, limit your total carb grams and eat fat to satiety and not worry about the rest. If you gain a little then cut back on the fat a little to maintain.

Does that answer your question?

To actually gain weight on LC you simply need to push up the calories. You can calculate it by using Phinney's 30-35kCal/kg and up your fat to reach that level of calories.

Fat in either case is the answer. As regards weight gain, it is the superior way to add calories because it won't bump insulin up. You could push up protein but you'd want to keep it in the 1.5-2.0g/kg range generally speaking.

Future weight gains would be through working out, right? Phinney/Volek's Peformance book thoroughly addresses the LC/NK life of an exercise enthusiast. I haven't read it but from what I gather it goes into great detail about body fat and appropriate protein grams for different body sculpting targets.

[reddarin]

Originally Posted by RavenG

Good Morning All!

New low 186.6! I'm not really sure what happened but I'll take it. I think for the month of December I lost a total of .2 lbs. I seem to hit a new low and then bounce back and forth between it for a couple of weeks and then lose again to a new low....rinse and repeat. I did start adding coconut oil to my coffee yesterday morning since I wasn't really getting enough fat otherwise....haven't had the time to make more fat bombs and the coconut oil was easier. I also switched back to my autoimmune protocol Paleo about a week ago....I had been trying to add things back in but was having issues with everything I tried to add back in except the nightshades (tomatoes and peppers). I'll keep the tomatoes and peppers but I'm going to have to stay away from the dairy, eggs, nuts and seeds.

Oops! Got busy with a couple of other things and almost missed your post!

Congrats on the new low!!!!

[reddarin]

Originally Posted by Haycyn

I try really hard to limit the processed foods here. I do want the kids to see wholesome. I notice a huge difference in my joints when I eat soy and / or nuts. I love almonds though. . I have not found any mayo or dressing that is cream based not from soybean oil, and I'm not a fan enough to make my own. I eat perhaps 3 tblspoons a week of mayo.

I think I may be trading bad habits. Like one week I may eat more sauces, the next maybe a bit too many carbs, the next....

You might post in the Lobby for recommendations on LC non-PUFA versions of that stuff.

You guys are wheat and grain free? Have you read Wheat Belly?

[Punkin]

Originally Posted by reddarin

No.

You need to use your real "ideal" weight for the protein calculations.

Ok thanks. So should I just try to find my protein amount based on trial and error then, because I have no idea what my ideal weight would be. I am guessing I am underweight now, but that is based on North American standards. ie. I doubt I would be considered elsewhere.

I am pretty sensitive to insulin in that if I overeat carbs or protein and not enough fat in a meal, I get an insulin response right away, or shortly there afterwards. From a daily perspective it is more difficult to tell, it seems as though if my meals are more balanced ie. the fat calories outweigh the protein and carbs, my insulin levels seem or feel more stable. I don't have a blood glucose meter that reads ketones, I am just going on feel. I have only been in the NK diet for a few weeks and it has made an unbelievable difference for me.

[Deb34]

Originally Posted by reddarin

We need to clear up that thing about the so-called 'example' from the Living book for future readers of the thread.

It does not address how 1300 calories are arrived at. Does that mean that 1300 calories is appropriate for all cases? No. That is impossible. I wonder what the response would have been if the question didn't match the 'example' so closely?

Dr. Phinney himself said that he wouldn't recommend a 1200 calorie a day regimen without clinical supervision.

What is the title of the Section that this 'example' comes out of? "Clinical Application".

What is the title of Chapter 16, where this 'example' is located? "The importance of dietary fat in long-term maintenance". This chapter is dedicated to convincing health care providers that fat is healthy and *must* be a part of long term maintenance.

The example assumes a clinical setting where a team of professionals can monitor you while you eat a very low calorie plan.

The example also shows 4 phases. The phases are Induction, Weight Loss, Pre-Maintenance and Maintenance.

I wonder about the example used too because it shows a very Atkinsesque looking carb ladder since phase 1 and 2 are steady at 25g carbs (100 calories) and then in phase 3 they go up some unnamed amount and in phase 4 they go up further.

thanks Red, I was getting a bit by the person 'popping in' to promote low calories every few pages in each months thread. I understood from last months thread they were going to bow out of the controversy... didn't last long I see.

[Deb34]

Originally Posted by dazygyrl

I know...it just all so...ugh...I read one thing that makes sense then read something else contrary to the first thing and that makes sense too...I know I just need to make a decision and stick to it.

I need to go to the dr to have something on my hand looked and I'm putting it off b/c I don't want him to weigh me. I am over 15lbs higher than when I saw him for my last yearly physical and just don't want to deal with being weighed in the office but know need to get this on m hand looked at bc it's bugging me....how ridiculous is THAT??

If the doc is looking at your hand, why would he weigh you? That's not the issue your seeking his advice on. He should not waste time and resources looking at something you haven't asked him about. JMO..

[Haycyn]

Originally Posted by reddarin

You might post in the Lobby for recommendations on LC non-PUFA versions of that stuff.

You guys are wheat and grain free? Have you read Wheat Belly?

I will do that, thanks.

Yes to the Wheat Belly, well audible anyway.

I am primarily WF, except this Holiday cheat fest I recently had. The husband is a bit looser, and is LC for weight alone. He thinks any benefits of feeling better are from wt loss. The children eat wheat when it is there. But it is not served w meals as a normal. If we go to a birthday party, they have cake. If they are invited for pizza they go.
Wheat Belly was a huge eye opener for me. Huge.

[reddarin]

Originally Posted by Punkin

Ok thanks. So should I just try to find my protein amount based on trial and error then, because I have no idea what my ideal weight would be. I am guessing I am underweight now, but that is based on North American standards. ie. I doubt I would be considered elsewhere.

I am pretty sensitive to insulin in that if I overeat carbs or protein and not enough fat in a meal, I get an insulin response right away, or shortly there afterwards. From a daily perspective it is more difficult to tell, it seems as though if my meals are more balanced ie. the fat calories outweigh the protein and carbs, my insulin levels seem or feel more stable. I don't have a blood glucose meter that reads ketones, I am just going on feel. I have only been in the NK diet for a few weeks and it has made an unbelievable difference for me.

You are not a computer person I take it?

What is your height and frame size? You can measure your frame size to be sure and it is worth measuring. I thought I was large framed all my life but I am not. I am medium framed.

Here is the post for how to measure frame size.

I have never measure my ketones. I don't believe it is a requirement unless all else proves fruitless or you simply want the immediate feedback and don't mind the expense of those test strips (or stabbing your finger heh). I bet those strips become a lot cheaper in the next year though.

Are you on any medication? Like thyroid or diabetic meds?

NA weight tables are awful. We use them and I frequently refer to them to establish ideal weight but the fact of the matter is, in my opinion, they set drastically under-weight standards for most people.

There are a lot of problems with the mainstream nutritional dogma.

Are you in America or elsewhere? Just curious

[reddarin]

Originally Posted by Deb34

thanks Red, I was getting a bit by the person 'popping in' to promote low calories every few pages in each months thread. I understood from last months thread they were going to bow out of the controversy... didn't last long I see.

Right?!? lol

It is very tiresome and tedious that is for sure. Thanks for the support Deb

[Buffy45]

Originally Posted by mizzcase

Good morning all! Last day here in Austin, I LOVE it here, but after 3 weeks, I need a vacation from vacation. =) The good news is there looks to be PLENTY of accounting positions in the area should my Sailor find an engineering/management position here. Wee!!

Have a good day =)

Mizzcase, I just returned from Austin. My DS moved there about 15 years ago and loves it there. Met DDIL there, she is from there and I doubt they will move unless his job takes them somewhere else. What I love about Austin is that it has so much character, so many cities are just cookie cutter cities anymore but Austin is unique.

[Buffy45]

Wow gang, I have been gone to visit DS and family for most of the week and with DGS 2, haven't had much time to read or post. I will just jump in and not get caught up yet, just hope everyone is doing well and is ready for another great successful year on NK.

I hadn't tested anything or logged all week but this morning but weight was 183, BG 82 and BK 1 so I am on track and all is good. The only thing I ate while gone that wasn't strictly LC was a wonderful homemade chicken veggie soup that DDIL made that had some higher carb veggies in it but it was worth the small bowl I had, she is a great cook.

[cici52]

Feelin'good after a wierd start. Slept 8 hours last night (almost unheard of). Made some fat bombs yesterday and had a few more than planned so maybe the CO in them did it. Woke with the half of my head that I slept on all scrunched, puffy and hurting. Apparently I didn't move all night. It all went away after about an hour and have felt great since. Side benefit?: not very hungry today. Maybe some ketones floating around. Also just one pound away from pre-holiday low.

[shelley]

Originally Posted by reddarin

No. 80/15/5 is purely nominal. Establish your correct protein grams. Eat that much protein or as close to it as you can every day. Eat 50g or less total carbs a day - as low as needed depending on how sensitive you are to carbs. Eat fat to satiety or to your calorie goal depending on how you are proceeding. Your macros will typically result in 65-85/15-30/5ish. But calorie consumption greatly affects how macro ratios look.

[Buffy45]

Originally Posted by RavenG

Good Morning All!

New low 186.6! I'm not really sure what happened but I'll take it. I think for the month of December I lost a total of .2 lbs. I seem to hit a new low and then bounce back and forth between it for a couple of weeks and then lose again to a new low....rinse and repeat. I did start adding coconut oil to my coffee yesterday morning since I wasn't really getting enough fat otherwise....haven't had the time to make more fat bombs and the coconut oil was easier. I also switched back to my autoimmune protocol Paleo about a week ago....I had been trying to add things back in but was having issues with everything I tried to add back in except the nightshades (tomatoes and peppers). I'll keep the tomatoes and peppers but I'm going to have to stay away from the dairy, eggs, nuts and seeds.

Congrats on your new low.

The bouncing is fairly common I think for most of us. The CO is a good thing, it helps suppress appetite, gives us the fats we need and energy. I always have it in my morning coffee unless I am away from home.

Wow, sorry you have to stay away from so many things that are a staple in many people's LC diet.

[Buffy45]

I just realized that I am at a new low, only 2/10's more of a lb but each teeny little loss means a LOT to me.

[reddarin]

Originally Posted by Buffy45

I just realized that I am at a new low, only 2/10's more of a lb but each teeny little loss means a LOT to me.

Congrats!!!

[Punkin]

I have a small frame size but I don't really understand how to figure out my ideal weight from that. I live in NA, but many people think I am skinny, especially in clothes, that is why I said I am probably considered underweight. When I had my DEXA scan done, the technician said not to worry that I was in the underweight category because they analyze the results based on NA standards. I don't worry because I still weigh more than I weighed in high school, but I don't want to lose anymore weight, so I want to set my calories accordingly.

[shelley]

Originally Posted by Buffy45

I just realized that I am at a new low, only 2/10's more of a lb but each teeny little loss means a LOT to me.

A new low is a new low!!!! Take it and jump up and down with glee!!!!

[reddarin]

Originally Posted by RavenG

I think for the month of December I lost a total of .2 lbs. I seem to hit a new low and then bounce back and forth between it for a couple of weeks and then lose again to a new low....rinse and repeat

Originally Posted by Buffy45

The bouncing is fairly common I think for most of us

I saw a lot of up/down on the scale every morning, it was almost a consistent pattern, until October when I pushed my calories up by 500(!!) from 1500 to 2000. Then it became a steady downward trend.

[reddarin]

Originally Posted by Punkin

I have a small frame size but I don't really understand how to figure out my ideal weight from that. I live in NA, but many people think I am skinny, especially in clothes, that is why I said I am probably considered underweight. When I had my DEXA scan done, the technician said not to worry that I was in the underweight category because they analyze the results based on NA standards. I don't worry because I still weigh more than I weighed in high school, but I don't want to lose anymore weight, so I want to set my calories accordingly.

Google 'height weight frame size chart' and the first hit, which should be health check systems, has a table that shows weight ranges based on frame size and height.

Oh, what did the doc say about the results of the DEXA?

What a perplexing thing for that tech to say lol.

[reddarin]

heh Cici, like waking up after sleeping on your arm for hours and it being completely numb.

[Clueless]

Can you guys help me out here. I am worring about my LC cooking with the rest of the family. Mainly my DH. My kids are shrinking as a result. My hubby has always been thin. He will eat anything I fix and is happy. But I am worring that all the sat fats may be bad as he still eats some carbs. Not as many carbs. Many days I would say he stays under 100g of carbs a day just cause I do not cook them. But he does eat bread on sandwiches or hamburger buns a few times a week. He hits the pnut m&ms occasionally and he puts a tsp of sugar in his coffee several times a day. He has soda maybe once a week and has some beer 2 nites a week. He also smokes Do ya think I am killing him with my high fat cuts of meat?

We always used to eat skinless chkbreast and LFat. I cannot see him wanting a turkey burger while I eat a fat burger
He likes the way I am cooking and eating. His hypoglycemia is better eating this way too. He takes cinnamon everyday, that helps loads.
I wouldn't want to be damaging his health with all this ground beef and bacon and cream cheese.

[reddarin]

Probably have to wait for ct or one of the others to weigh in on this one Cheryl.

We can man-shame him on the sugar in the coffee though

[Clueless]

Originally Posted by reddarin

Probably have to wait for ct or one of the others to weigh in on this one Cheryl.

We can man-shame him on the sugar in the coffee though

[cheeeesecake]

Hi guys!

Getting back in the high fat/low carb zone after taking the last month off. I haven't got back on the scales yet...I'm totally avoiding them!!

[Buffy45]

Welcome back Gail. Lots of us slipped and skidded over the holidays.

Cheryl, the sugar you could gradually get him to replace with stevia drops or liquid splenda for his coffee, half and half at first. I don't actually like real sugar in coffee anymore.

[Clueless]

Originally Posted by Buffy45

Welcome back Gail. Lots of us slipped and skidded over the holidays.

Cheryl, the sugar you could gradually get him to replace with stevia drops or liquid splenda for his coffee, half and half at first. I don't actually like real sugar in coffee anymore.

Anytime we make a thermos for outings I use HWC and he likes it (doesn't draw ants).
He just uses the sugar outta habit I think.

[mizzcase]

Originally Posted by reddarin

Hey did ya'll go sight see the Alamo in San Antonio since you were so close by?

If you did, what did ya think? I thought it might as well have been one of the theme areas at Six Flags it was so touristy and artificial looking.

Hey, I drove by it last year but had no desire to actually go see it-- it just looked like a tourist attraction, like you noted. We spent a few days in Bulverde this year, which is just north of San Antonio. Austin is my favorite Texas city, but I love SA a lot too!