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Old 12-26-2012, 05:30 AM   #1
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Reducing your protein in NK?

I am just curious as to how people do this? I can't see starting to eat oil directly when you are doing NK, and I am finding that most of the high fat, low carb foods contain protein. I am not even sure how much is too much. I think I am currently eating around 116g of protein, including all of the protein I get from veggies and dairy. How did other people reduce their protein? What percentage of our calories should be coming from protein to maintain proper NK, I am confused about this as well.
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Old 12-26-2012, 06:57 AM   #2
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I'm not an expert on nk, and I don't count all my grams all the time.... but I also refuse to eat things that I don't like. I am 5'9" and weight 155-160 (but am very slowly tending toward 150).

My typical day is:

B: Coffee + tsp coco oil
L: 2 eggs + 3 strips of bacon, some sauteed mushrooms
D: A moderate sized portion of ham hock (naturally fatty), which I eat very slowly, and some spinach, maybe a beet and some spinach

Additionally, I also like really old, fatty cheeses - like blue cheese or aged parmesan (also a good probiotic). If I am still feeling hungry after a meal, I may have a handful of walnuts or pecans.

Besides nutritional ketosis, I try to limit my food list. I try to eat:

Foods that I really like, but that I don't have any tendency to binge on.

For example, I can have a handful of walnuts and walk away - but I could eat an entire bag of cashews... don't even get me started on salted almonds! Or, I can enjoy aged, well-made cheeses in moderation and they have an unnoticeable effect on my blood sugar - but I tend to overeat heavy whipping cream and cream cheese, and both of those milk products do have a noticeable effect on my blood sugar.

If I am craving something sweeter, I keep coconut milk and coconut cream on hand. I'll have a few tablespoons of either and it calms my sweet tooth.

I cannot eat avocado or dark chocolate (allergy), but a lot of other people like them.

If I were you, I'd start looking for recipes for fattier pieces of meat and fish (salmon, sardines). And don't forget your daily dose of fermented cod liver oil.
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Old 12-26-2012, 07:56 AM   #3
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Kristn I have a question about the Keto-Calculator. I click on the link and fill in age, weight, height but nothing happens. There doesn't appear to be anything to click on so that the protein actually calculates. I get to the section on BMR and it doesn't allow me to enter any data there and nothing happens to give me an estimate of my BMR.

Got any idea what the heck I am doing wrong?

Thanks
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Old 12-26-2012, 08:02 AM   #4
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I weigh everything and have found I have to decrease the portions of meat and cheese. I also add sauces to my veggies and make some savory cheesecakes to stretch the meat.

I try to keep protein to 80g/day, and carbs under 20g net.
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Old 12-26-2012, 08:51 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mobear View Post
Kristn I have a question about the Keto-Calculator. I click on the link and fill in age, weight, height but nothing happens. There doesn't appear to be anything to click on so that the protein actually calculates. I get to the section on BMR and it doesn't allow me to enter any data there and nothing happens to give me an estimate of my BMR.

Got any idea what the heck I am doing wrong?

Thanks
It could be a browser issue (someone else had that--their browser was too old). Also, you have to fill in your desired amount of protein (it gives you a recommendation, high and low, but they leave it to you to make the choice in the middle box). Below that you also need to enter your calorie level--again, they give a range and you fill in the middle box.

Any luck?
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Old 12-26-2012, 11:06 AM   #6
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Unfortunately it doesn't seem to work for me. I fill in the top part - down to step 2. When I click on the link to find out my BMR I get a virus warning from AVG. Think maybe I should leave well enough alone.

I used the Optimal Diet to figure out my protein and it gave me a range with a base of 52g. Through trial and staying stuck...I figured out I should be between 45 and 52g to lose weight.

I haven't done very well for the last week - not a problem with carbs, but definitely overeating protein to about 80-90g a day and calories up around 1500-1600. At those levels, I managed to gain about 4 pounds.

So, yesterday and today I am fighting to get back on track.
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Old 12-26-2012, 12:34 PM   #7
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I tried the calculator too and it gave me 104g, but a max of 118g, but the lower limit was based on no exercise (60g) and the upper limit based on a lot of exercise so I wasn't sure where I should be on that scale.
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Old 12-26-2012, 05:18 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mobear View Post
Unfortunately it doesn't seem to work for me. I fill in the top part - down to step 2. When I click on the link to find out my BMR I get a virus warning from AVG. Think maybe I should leave well enough alone.

I used the Optimal Diet to figure out my protein and it gave me a range with a base of 52g. Through trial and staying stuck...I figured out I should be between 45 and 52g to lose weight.

I haven't done very well for the last week - not a problem with carbs, but definitely overeating protein to about 80-90g a day and calories up around 1500-1600. At those levels, I managed to gain about 4 pounds.

So, yesterday and today I am fighting to get back on track.
I'm sorry that the calculator didn't work for you. It sounds like you have a good idea of what protein level you need to eat to lose. I think the calculator comes in handy if you have no idea where to start--but good ol' pencil and paper works as well.

I'm sure you'll be back on track in no time!
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Old 12-26-2012, 05:35 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Punkin View Post
The problem with me is that I am a vegetarian, so I get carbs even if I don't want them. I still eat roughly 50g - 100g of fish/chicken a day but I want to remove that if I can. I am very active, I workout between 9 - 22 hrs a week, but I am trying to reduce my exercise to no more than 10 hrs a week.

Should I get a blood meter to check to see if I am staying in ketosis? Right now I am just relying on feeling the sweet taste in my mouth, but I can't really reduce my carbs to as low as 25g per day, because I get a lot of my protein from dairy/tofu and you get a side order of carbs with those. I also eat coconut, dark chocolate and avocados for fat and they contain carbs.
Can I ask what your goal is in getting into ketosis? It is pretty difficult to do as a vegetarian and may be impossible with such high carb levels. Since weight-loss is not your goal, is there another reason that you are working towards ketosis?

Have you checked out the vegetarian LC board here: Vegetarian - Low Carb Friends

Quote:
Does 100g of protein seem reasonable? I am 5'3, 42yrs and weigh 105lbs. I am trying to maintain my weight right now, including my LBM.
Protein levels seem to be very individual--hence the wide range. To do this you may want to get a meter to test how much protein and how many carbs you can eat to stay in ketosis. Nova Max Plus offers a free meter with 2 ketone strips (2 more when you register the meter).

I can only use myself as an example but at 5'5.5", 143 lbs, and ~20%BF I can only eat 70-90 grams of protein a day and stay in ketosis. I only know this because I have tested using the meter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Punkin View Post
I tried the calculator too and it gave me 104g, but a max of 118g, but the lower limit was based on no exercise (60g) and the upper limit based on a lot of exercise so I wasn't sure where I should be on that scale.
You could try starting out at 100 and see how you feel. If you aren't meeting your goals then you can adjust up or down.
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March 2012 to August 2012--175/150 Made Goal 8/27/12!
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Old 12-26-2012, 05:36 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Punkin View Post
The problem with me is that I am a vegetarian, so I get carbs even if I don't want them. I still eat roughly 50g - 100g of fish/chicken a day but I want to remove that if I can. I am very active, I workout between 9 - 22 hrs a week, but I am trying to reduce my exercise to no more than 10 hrs a week.

Should I get a blood meter to check to see if I am staying in ketosis? Right now I am just relying on feeling the sweet taste in my mouth, but I can't really reduce my carbs to as low as 25g per day, because I get a lot of my protein from dairy/tofu and you get a side order of carbs with those. I also eat coconut, dark chocolate and avocados for fat and they contain carbs.

Does 100g of protein seem reasonable? I am 5'3, 42yrs and weigh 105lbs. I am trying to maintain my weight right now, including my LBM.
I put a lot of high fat recipes into the following thread (and others have contributed recipes there, as well) High fat, low to moderate protein recipes? .

I was a vegetarian for most of my adult life, and many of the recipes there are consistent with a vegetarian diet, with lots of recipes based on cream cheese, cheese, avocado, heavy cream, olive oil, mayonnaise, sour cream, and butter.

I try to keep my protein levels under 60 grams/day, but I get a fair amount of my calories from avocadoes, macademia nuts, heavy cream in coffee and tea, full-fat salad dressing, and coconut butter. I don't have anything except coffee with 1/4th cup of whipping cream for breakfast and often have just salad with a little protein and a generous amount of full-fat dressing for dinner. You have to plan ahead--using a tracker helps--to keep your protein low and fat high, but it can be done, especially if you don't eat protein at every meal and build some meals around fats instead. And I limit my protein servings of chicken or fish to only 3-4 ounces in my high-protein meals.

Good luck. I hope some of those suggestions help.
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Old 12-27-2012, 04:21 AM   #11
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In general, beware of too much tofu. This has been proven to have an adverse effect on women's health. You could also try seitan for protein, I suppose. You will really need to focus on eggs, maybe you could eat more mushrooms.

I would focus on aged cheeses, nuts, eggs, whey protein, and full fat kefir. Pecans, for example, seem to have a lower carb count than other nuts.

NK really doesn't lend itself to a vegetarian diet (because you would have to limit yourself even more). Do you want to become vegetarian for ethical reasons? I completely understand. I also really, really wanted to be a vegan for ethical reasons, but my health suffered way too much, so I had to give it up. However, a lot of people seem to thrive on vegetarian diets - I hope that is the case for you.

Anyway, if there is a will, there is a way! I just hope you like eggs!
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Old 12-27-2012, 05:26 AM   #12
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Can I ask what your goal is in getting into ketosis?
Oh boy where do I begin with my life story...LOL. I will try to sum it up with the least amount of words possible.

As a kid I was a complete candy addict. At halloween my parents would take the bag of candy away from me or I would eat the whole bag. I struggled from a very young age with over-eating and weight gain, and had to go on diets as a teenager, although none of the ones that were available, even ww worked for me.

In my late teens I took up excessive exercise as a weight management tool and relatively speaking it worked, until I was in my twenties when I struggled again with over-eating and yoyo dieting. That is when I took up smoking which helped control my weight. I also had serious GI issues and struggled with candida. I eventually learned that cutting sugar out of my diet (the obvious sweet things) helped control my health issues, however at that point I was still eating lots of carbs and foods with hidden sugars.

Around the age of 30 my dad died from cancer (he was also a type II diabetic). In my mid 30s, I gained a ton of weight and once again I took up excessive exercise, but this time to the extreme...endurance athletic training 22hrs a week. Once again as a weight management strategy. I lost about 40lbs in total. I did this on a high carb diet with a ton of exercise. But now I am wanting to make serious change, because I am tired of living that way. Without writing an essay to explain how I arrived at ketosis and eventually to lowcarbfriends, I will try to explain it, based on what I think has been going on with me for all these years.

I think I might have precursory symptoms of type II diabetes. The problem being that a normal carbohydrate diet, Ie. what most people would call normal, is to high of a level for me. I definitely know that my body can't handle sugar in the doses that we are exposed to in our society. And sugar to me is an addictive substance. I can handle it in very small doses. Ie. 4g (1tsp) mixed with food doesn't seem to trigger an bingeing response, but when I get up to 8 grams, especially if there is no fibre, I wind up into a full on binge. We have a carb cupboard in our house. If I open it, it triggers a response. Next thing I know I am reaching into a box of crackers or cereal and eating handfuls of it.
I also have problems with insulin, since I have been in ketosis I have had almost no problems with pain when eating, or just shortly there afterwards. The pain it is difficult to describe, but it is like a ravishing hunger that in the past has caused me to eat as much as 2000cal in one sitting! The only other thing that makes this pain go away is exercise. So until I went ketotic, I either did one of two things after eating a meal...eat more carbs or exercise. Well I don't want to gain weight so I chose exercise. This has turned me into an exercise junkie, exercising 2-3 hours a day to avoid over-eating.
I recently realized that most of my over-eating, over the last 30 yrs has been in response to insulin cues. So to sum up my story, I am going low carb in hopes of trying to get that under control.
What I don't know if the problem I have with hyperinsulinemia is caused from my genetic history with type II diabetes, or have a aggravated it with the cycle of over-exercising, or something else. I also have symptoms of PCOS, so who knows. I am just hoping that ketoadaptation will help me restore my insulin levels back to normal. I may not ever be able to return to a "normal" carb diet. It maybe like someone who used to be an alcoholic, can they ever return to just being a social drinker? I don't know. Seeing as though there is a genetic history there, maybe not. I am going to do a lot of reading up on it to see if it can be a way of life long term. Because I will tell you, I feel a lot better on a keto diet. Over the 30 years I feel like I have been living in nutritional hell, and finally have been released from all of that.
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Old 12-27-2012, 05:32 AM   #13
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Good luck. I hope some of those suggestions help.
Yes it does, thankyou. I am a vegetarian mostly because I just don't like meat all that much. In small doses, like once a day it is ok. I prefer non-meat sources of protein...probably because they contain carbs.

I remember the first time someone ever gave me a low carb diet, it had me eating meat 5x a day. The only other alternative was a protein shake which I couldn't get down. I lost interest in eating. Looking back on it, it was probably because there wasn't enough fat and carbs in the diet. I think I understand now that if you are going to reduce carbs, you have to replace it with fat.

I will check out your recipes.
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Old 12-27-2012, 07:08 AM   #14
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Punkin,
Thank you for sharing your story and history. I think experimenting with low-carb makes sense and I applaud you for giving it a go. It is not easy, especially if you don't like meat.

On NK, even in maintenance, I only eat meat once a day--and I love meat. I get the rest of my protein mostly from eggs and cheese. This doesn't have to be a high-protein diet, moderate protein is the key and it's not that hard to get once you start adding it all up.

It sounds like your lower level of protein in the range from the calculator is 60grams. This shouldn't be hard to get to with a minimal amount of meat and some cheese and eggs--especially if you're eating lean meats like fish or chicken. I know that you want to stop eating meat, but I would suggest that while you're getting the hang of NK, 4-6 ounces of animal protein a day is probably good for you. Think of it as a vitamin, make sure to get humanely raised meats or wild-caught fish for the most nutrient dense dose. Once you're firmly in ketosis you can then try reducing your meat intake by substituting higher carb sources of vegetarian protein.

Like Sven suggested, to reduce protein you can also make an entire meal out of mostly fat. I know it sounds a bit odd, but I love mascarpone cheese mixed with splenda, high quality cocoa powder, and chopped macadamia nuts for lunch. Don't feel like you have to have a hunk of protein at every meal.

Also, make sure that you're getting enough salt (you should supplement with broth), magnesium, and potassium.
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Old 12-27-2012, 11:17 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by Punkin View Post
Oh boy where do I begin with my life story...LOL. I will try to sum it up with the least amount of words possible.

As a kid I was a complete candy addict. At halloween my parents would take the bag of candy away from me or I would eat the whole bag. I struggled from a very young age with over-eating and weight gain, and had to go on diets as a teenager, although none of the ones that were available, even ww worked for me.

In my late teens I took up excessive exercise as a weight management tool and relatively speaking it worked, until I was in my twenties when I struggled again with over-eating and yoyo dieting. That is when I took up smoking which helped control my weight. I also had serious GI issues and struggled with candida. I eventually learned that cutting sugar out of my diet (the obvious sweet things) helped control my health issues, however at that point I was still eating lots of carbs and foods with hidden sugars.

Around the age of 30 my dad died from cancer (he was also a type II diabetic). In my mid 30s, I gained a ton of weight and once again I took up excessive exercise, but this time to the extreme...endurance athletic training 22hrs a week. Once again as a weight management strategy. I lost about 40lbs in total. I did this on a high carb diet with a ton of exercise. But now I am wanting to make serious change, because I am tired of living that way. Without writing an essay to explain how I arrived at ketosis and eventually to lowcarbfriends, I will try to explain it, based on what I think has been going on with me for all these years.

I think I might have precursory symptoms of type II diabetes. The problem being that a normal carbohydrate diet, Ie. what most people would call normal, is to high of a level for me. I definitely know that my body can't handle sugar in the doses that we are exposed to in our society. And sugar to me is an addictive substance. I can handle it in very small doses. Ie. 4g (1tsp) mixed with food doesn't seem to trigger an bingeing response, but when I get up to 8 grams, especially if there is no fibre, I wind up into a full on binge. We have a carb cupboard in our house. If I open it, it triggers a response. Next thing I know I am reaching into a box of crackers or cereal and eating handfuls of it.
I also have problems with insulin, since I have been in ketosis I have had almost no problems with pain when eating, or just shortly there afterwards. The pain it is difficult to describe, but it is like a ravishing hunger that in the past has caused me to eat as much as 2000cal in one sitting! The only other thing that makes this pain go away is exercise. So until I went ketotic, I either did one of two things after eating a meal...eat more carbs or exercise. Well I don't want to gain weight so I chose exercise. This has turned me into an exercise junkie, exercising 2-3 hours a day to avoid over-eating.
I recently realized that most of my over-eating, over the last 30 yrs has been in response to insulin cues. So to sum up my story, I am going low carb in hopes of trying to get that under control.
What I don't know if the problem I have with hyperinsulinemia is caused from my genetic history with type II diabetes, or have a aggravated it with the cycle of over-exercising, or something else. I also have symptoms of PCOS, so who knows. I am just hoping that ketoadaptation will help me restore my insulin levels back to normal. I may not ever be able to return to a "normal" carb diet. It maybe like someone who used to be an alcoholic, can they ever return to just being a social drinker? I don't know. Seeing as though there is a genetic history there, maybe not. I am going to do a lot of reading up on it to see if it can be a way of life long term. Because I will tell you, I feel a lot better on a keto diet. Over the 30 years I feel like I have been living in nutritional hell, and finally have been released from all of that.
I just had to thank you for your wonderful story....sounds like a few of us could have written the same thing!!!! It's wonderful we have all migrated here....after trial and error. The only recommendation I might offer is that of soy/tofu. Read up on it and hypothyroidism. Even a well known female doctor that used to be on Oprah fell into the "eat soy all you women" scenario and I followed it too...same reasons you had/have. Both the doc and I are now hypothyroid for life. Soy can/will do that to you, so I recommend that you do some research on soy in the forms that are unfermented (as is tofu and nuts and milks, etc.)

Welcome to the group and thanks so much for sharing your story.
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Old 01-09-2013, 05:43 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by Mobear View Post
Kristn I have a question about the Keto-Calculator. I click on the link and fill in age, weight, height but nothing happens. There doesn't appear to be anything to click on so that the protein actually calculates. I get to the section on BMR and it doesn't allow me to enter any data there and nothing happens to give me an estimate of my BMR.

Got any idea what the heck I am doing wrong?

Thanks
Wondering the same thing

Deb
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Old 01-09-2013, 05:49 PM   #17
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Wondering the same thing

Deb
You don't actually click on anything, just fill in where it lets you/asks you. Some people have had browser issues with the calculator, you could try using another one. It's not intuitive, but useful when you can get it to work.
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