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-   -   Was anyone afraid to poke their fingers (http://www.lowcarbfriends.com/bbs/nutritional-ketosis-high-fat-low-carb/790965-anyone-afraid-poke-their-fingers.html)

shipoo 12-08-2012 04:08 PM

Was anyone afraid to poke their fingers
 
I have a real phobia about needles and I was just wondering if anyone else was a little afraid to take the first poke......I am pretty sure I am in NK, am in ketosis and am losing weight and keeping track of carbs, protein and fat. It is just that I got the monitor (free here in Ontario) and it has been sitting here staring at me for the last two days with my fear of needles now overtaking me.
:eek:


Cheryl

UnstrungHarp 12-08-2012 06:26 PM

Um...yes! :o

When I first got my Precision Xtra meter, I didn't wait two days, but I got everything ready and then chickened out. My husband said I turned green. My palms were sweaty and I felt like I might pass out. (And I do pretty well when I have to get my blood drawn every so often as part of a clinical trial.) I think it was something about the fear of the unknown, and the fact that I was having to do it myself.

After a long delay and several false starts, I finally asked my husband to press the button on the lance thing. He got a big laugh out of it because I had been freaking out, turning green, etc. and as soon as he pressed the button, I said, "That was NOTHING!!" I couldn't believe it when a little drop of blood appeared on my fingertip since I had barely felt anything at all and I thought it hadn't worked. That experience was all it took...and now I can't wait to prick my finger whenever it's time to test (not the pricking but the anticipation of seeing the result!). I have to admit that it is not 100% painless, but it's really a minor irritation, and it's over so quickly.

Good luck!!! :high5:

drjlocarb 12-08-2012 06:34 PM

I get freaked out EVERY TIME. I found that I CRINGED each and every time I had to make myself bleed.

shipoo 12-08-2012 06:42 PM

Thank god I am not alone! I plan to read the literature on how to use it tomorrow and test.:aprayer:

Nelle Belle 12-08-2012 06:52 PM

Lol I am a nurse and give shots, draw blood, start , do fingersticks no problem. But i cant do it to myself. Have to have dh do it if i want to check bs.

wildflower 12-08-2012 08:11 PM

I used to have issues and got over it real fast when my Boston (since passed) developed diabetes and I had to check his bs(from inside his ear) and also give him insulin injections.

Now, I check my own bs and also give my dh his insulin injections daily. The prick on the finger doesn't hurt, just don't do on the pad of the fingers as they will get sore real fast. I find that I get the easiest blood draw with the least 'pain' from the side of my little fingers. I read that somewhere and have done it that way ever since!

You can do it!!!!:)
Arlene

reddarin 12-09-2012 09:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shipoo (Post 16125420)
I have a real phobia about needles and I was just wondering if anyone else was a little afraid to take the first poke......I am pretty sure I am in NK, am in ketosis and am losing weight and keeping track of carbs, protein and fat. It is just that I got the monitor (free here in Ontario) and it has been sitting here staring at me for the last two days with my fear of needles now overtaking me.
:eek:


Cheryl

If you are not impatient you can do NK perfectly fine without poking yourself. Testing blood ketones comes out of the Performance book by Phinney and Volek and as far as I can tell they don't propose it elsewhere.

I've been doing NK since September without poking myself.

I live in mortal fear of needles and syringes. I mean I get faint to the point of passing out - that sort of phobia. It is hellish.

It is nice to meet someone else who is cognizant of the innate evil nature of needles and shots. :)

mom2zeke 12-09-2012 10:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by reddarin (Post 16126390)
If you are not impatient you can do NK perfectly fine without poking yourself. Testing blood ketones comes out of the Performance book by Phinney and Volek and as far as I can tell they don't propose it elsewhere.

Since the consumer meters to test ketones are relatively new, and the Performance book is their latest book, it's not surprising that they didn't mention it elsewhere. They do say in the Living book, Chapter 13, subheading Ketones, To Measure or Not, "Testing serum for beta-hydroxybutyrate is much more accurate but requires drawing blood, and it is expensive because it is not a routine test that doctors normally order." Which leads to the conclusion that home test meters weren't available when the earlier books were written so of course they aren't mentioned:).

Quote:

I've been doing NK since September without poking myself.
Many people who have thought that they were in ketosis have been surprised when they started testing that they weren't registering ketones via the blood meter. Of course, if you're following the protocol and losing and you don't care if you're actually in ketosis or not then the testing doesn't matter. But if you really want to see if this whole ketosis experiment works, confirmation that you're actually in ketosis is pretty helpful. A free meter with 4 ketone test strips is available so anyone can at least have a few tests without putting out any money.

shelley 12-09-2012 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shipoo (Post 16125420)
I have a real phobia about needles and I was just wondering if anyone else was a little afraid to take the first poke......I am pretty sure I am in NK, am in ketosis and am losing weight and keeping track of carbs, protein and fat. It is just that I got the monitor (free here in Ontario) and it has been sitting here staring at me for the last two days with my fear of needles now overtaking me.
:eek:


Cheryl

Love this....took me a week of looking at the darned meter before I got brave enough to make the first "prick". I have the novamax and did the wrong piece for the lancet....and wondered why it was hard, and then realized it was the one for body parts other than the finger. Duh. Now I don't give it a second thought. It bothered me a while, but now I can do it without worrying at all. It's just like brushing my teeth now. Doesn't hurt, just is a "surprise" when I think it hasn't penetrated enough to find that it was one of the best pokes I've done. :hyst: I think, like most things that are not mainstream in life, it just takes practice, practice, practice to feel comfy with it.

To prepare, I wash my lower arm and hand in hot water...just letting the blood "boil". ha ha Then I swing my arm either in a circle or a pendulum motion until I feel the blood going to my fingers (tingles) and then I have a small piece of cotton, the bottle of alcohol, and I prepare like I'm a nurse, and then I do the "deed" and have never had a problem. I find that I have "one" finger that does it easiest and I tend to use it over and over. No callous and no evidence of it being overpoked so far. I rub with alcohol again when I'm done and go about my day. Easy! It's sort of "fun" when you get into it and are recording and being a scientist! :)

reddarin 12-09-2012 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mom2zeke (Post 16126415)
Since the consumer meters to test ketones are relatively new, and the Performance book is their latest book, it's not surprising that they didn't mention it elsewhere.

???

Kristn, I just took two seconds to do a google search of 'blood ketone strips'. Hit #1 is Amazon with the first review dated January 26, 2010. Hit #2 is for the D-Mom, a mommie with a diabetic child, describing the use of blood ketone strips with an at home meter dated MARCH 4, 2010.

Further down the page:

-------------[copy/pasted]
How many blood ketone strips do you go through in a ...‎ - 18 posts - Sep 24, 2007

Precision Xtra Blood Ketone Strips NDC# to order ...‎ - 3 posts - Sep 14, 2006
-------------[/end copy/paste]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mom2zeke (Post 16126415)
They do say in the Living book, Chapter 13, subheading Ketones, To Measure or Not, "Testing serum for beta-hydroxybutyrate is much more accurate but requires drawing blood, and it is expensive because it is not a routine test that doctors normally order." Which leads to the conclusion that home test meters weren't available when the earlier books were written so of course they aren't mentioned:).

An incorrect conclusion as we have seen.

And you cut off the part in front of your quote, which explains why the Doctors even brought up blood ketone testing:

"These temporal changes in how the kidneys handle ketones make urine ketone testing a rather uncertain if not undependable way of monitoring dietary response/adherence." ... and then they remark that blood tests are much more accurate.

You also left off the title of Chapter 13 which seems to have some bearing on the quote you made: "Clinical Use Of Carbohydrate Restriction: Very Low Calorie and Low Carbohydrate Diets".

*AND* you missed the following statement: "But whatever test is used, the key question is why do it? Many people are able to initiate and follow a low carbohydrate diet just fine without ever measuring ketones." He goes on to mention the hand held breath analyzers that are on the horizon but the context is for long term maintenance - not attaining and staying in a keto-adapted state.


Quote:

Originally Posted by mom2zeke (Post 16126415)
Many people who have thought that they were in ketosis have been surprised when they started testing that they weren't registering ketones via the blood meter. Of course, if you're following the protocol and losing and you don't care if you're actually in ketosis or not then the testing doesn't matter. But if you really want to see if this whole ketosis experiment works, confirmation that you're actually in ketosis is pretty helpful. A free meter with 4 ketone test strips is available so anyone can at least have a few tests without putting out any money.

If you truly are following the NK path and not cheating and not eating very low calorie and not taking medication that would obviously interfere with ketone production and you are not losing weight then you are a candidate for blood ketone testing to see if another data point can help you figure things out.

In the chapter you referred to, and many other times, Phinney has said that the state of ketosis is nothing magical. He baldly states on a podcast that being in ketosis does not guarantee weight loss. That implies that testing to find out if you are in ketosis is not the first step or even in the first few steps but rather as a troubleshooting tool to figure out what is wrong with what you are doing. Not preemptive but post analysis. Unless, of course, you are a athletic enthusiast where every data point can be or is very important - as in the Performance book.

mom2zeke 12-09-2012 01:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by reddarin (Post 16126574)
???

Kristn, I just took two seconds to do a google search of 'blood ketone strips'. Hit #1 is Amazon with the first review dated January 26, 2010. Hit #2 is for the D-Mom, a mommie with a diabetic child, describing the use of blood ketone strips with an at home meter dated MARCH 4, 2010.

Further down the page:

An incorrect conclusion as we have seen.

Not necessarily. Just because the strips were available doesn't mean that the doctors were aware that they were widely distributed while they were writing the Living book. They write extensively about blood ketone testing just a year later in the Performance book.

Quote:

And you cut off the part in front of your quote, which explains why the Doctors even brought up blood ketone testing:

"These temporal changes in how the kidneys handle ketones make urine ketone testing a rather uncertain if not undependable way of monitoring dietary response/adherence." ... and then they remark that blood tests are much more accurate.

You also left off the title of Chapter 13 which seems to have some bearing on the quote you made: "Clinical Use Of Carbohydrate Restriction: Very Low Calorie and Low Carbohydrate Diets".
I miss the relevance of both of these statements. What is it you're trying to say? Yes, urine tests are unreliable, and the book is geared towards doctors so the "clinical use" is part of that slant of the book.

Quote:

*AND* you missed the following statement: "But whatever test is used, the key question is why do it? Many people are able to initiate and follow a low carbohydrate diet just fine without ever measuring ketones." He goes on to mention the hand held breath analyzers that are on the horizon but the context is for long term maintenance - not attaining and staying in a keto-adapted state.
Perhaps they didn't see how home testing could currently be used at the time the book was written. With the wide distribution of the meters they obviously changed their thinking when they were writing the Performance book.

Quote:

If you truly are following the NK path and not cheating and not eating very low calorie and not taking medication that would obviously interfere with ketone production and you are not losing weight then you are a candidate for blood ketone testing to see if another data point can help you figure things out.

In the chapter you referred to, and many other times, Phinney has said that the state of ketosis is nothing magical. He baldly states on a podcast that being in ketosis does not guarantee weight loss. That implies that testing to find out if you are in ketosis is not the first step or even in the first few steps but rather as a troubleshooting tool to figure out what is wrong with what you are doing. Not preemptive but post analysis. Unless, of course, you are a athletic enthusiast where every data point can be or is very important - as in the Performance book.
Red--Perhaps you should actually read the Performance book before you analyze it, criticize it, or say that it's not valuable for weight-loss. In the Performance book they also say that ketosis is not a guarantee of weight-loss as I've pointed out many times. But the whole point of nutritional ketosis is to be in ketosis and you really don't know if you are unless you test. The Performance book is actually a lot more specific about how to get and stay in NK than the Living book. That is the book that Jimmy Moore based his n=1 NK experiment on and it's the book that I've found most useful in my own foray into NK.

If you're losing and you're happy with your results then you're right it doesn't really matter, but is it really NK? Sounds like Atkins to me and I was pretty successful with Atkins for 11 years. But for me it did stop working to lose after a while.

I've been able to lose beyond my goal and gain LBM following the recommendations in the Performance book (and I'm not an athlete). Needless to say I'm very happy with the results.

shipoo 12-09-2012 01:16 PM

Well all my worries were for naught this morning.......Found out the pharmacist sold me the wrong strips! Apparently the meter uses both blood glucose and blood ketone strips...it is a Precision Xtra. So I did not poke my finger.
When I went to the pharmacy to get the meter - it was free if you purchased strips, they really did not know what they were doing. I live in a city with a high East Asian Indian population and they have a high incidence of diabetes. So I guess the pharmacist just assumed I wanted the glucose testing ones.
You should see the amount of diabetic meterst, lancets etc on the shelves behind the pharmacist!!!

Anyway I had to order them special after I convinced him of the different type of testing and they will arrive Tuesday.

Am also waiting for my book which I ordered from amazon but with the Christmas mailing season in full swing I might not get it until after New Year.

It is a relief that I am not the only one with a phobia though....mine is so bad I have to think of how sad I would be if my dog died in order to take my mind off a simple blood test. :o

Cheryl

NKSL55 12-09-2012 02:19 PM

Yow! Chill out guys!

Not that the conflict bothers me, but don't forget the cardinal rule of the internet -- stuff always nearly always comes across harsher in print than it would in a face to face discussion.

I worry that this might escalate into something that would make this forum unpleasant for you. From where I stand, you two are the pillars that hold this forum up. I've read nearly every message posted here in the last 6 months. I have seen the effort both of you put into it. Man, I don't want to see either of you driven away!

--
Phillip

reddarin 12-09-2012 02:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mom2zeke (Post 16126728)
Not necessarily. Just because the strips were available doesn't mean that the doctors were aware that they were widely distributed while they were writing the Living book. They write extensively about blood ketone testing just a year later in the Performance book.

:eek:

You base everything you say on leap of faith type strawmen arguments like this Kristn. It is why I don't generally respond to your posts even if they are directed at me.

For you to be correct in your assertion we must believe that, despite my proving just now that they existed for *YEARS* before the first book was written:
  • Phinney never heard of ketone test strips.
  • Volek never heard of ketone test strips.
  • If Phinney heard of them he never considered their application in NK/LC.
  • If Volek heard of them he never considered their application in NK/LC.
  • Neither man had heard of these strips and told the other man.
  • One doctor, having told the other about the existence of these strips, both doctors concluded that they had no application.
  • Not one soul around them had ever heard of these strips and informed either doctor of their existence.
  • No other LC interested doctor mentioned this elusive ketone test strips to either doctor at any time before the book was published.
  • And so on and so forth.

....all of that and then, magically just one year later, blood ketone testing is the only valid way to pursue NK.



Quote:

Originally Posted by mom2zeke (Post 16126728)
I miss the relevance of both of these statements. What is it you're trying to say? Yes, urine tests are unreliable, and the book is geared towards doctors so the "clinical use" is part of that slant of the book.

:eek:

Quote:

Originally Posted by mom2zeke (Post 16126728)
Perhaps they didn't see how home testing could currently be used at the time the book was written. With the wide distribution of the meters they obviously changed their thinking when they were writing the Performance book.

lol Come on!!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by mom2zeke (Post 16126728)
Red--Perhaps you should actually read the Performance book before you analyze it, criticize it, or say that it's not valuable for weight-loss.

More strawman arguments. I have never said it is not valuable for weight loss.

Kristn, I have zero interest in analyzing it or criticizing it outside of being forced to do that because of your aggressive posture that the Performance book, because of publish date, is somehow the only way that NK can possibly be valid. All evidence to the contrary is blithely ignored, dismissed out of hand or some fanciful chain of improbability is produced to explain the glaring contradiction.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mom2zeke (Post 16126728)
In the Performance book they also say that ketosis is not a guarantee of weight-loss as I've pointed out many times. But the whole point of nutritional ketosis is to be in ketosis and you really don't know if you are unless you test. The Performance book is actually a lot more specific about how to get and stay in NK than the Living book.

Right. It was written specifically, in direct response to many requests from, the athletic performance community. It is not shocking that there is a lot of fine detail for those folks.

Do you also assert that Dr. Phinney and Dr. Volek never heard of body fat % when they wrote the Living book? It is a key part of the formula they used in the Performance book.

That is quite a bit of an oversight, no? Just kind of ignore the whole body fat thing and hope for the best till a few months later when they became aware of it for the Performance book and made it a central factor in calculating the all important protein grams.

That quote about testing and it not being needed for the layman (i.e. non-Performance) person? Well. Dismissed out of hand, right? No, they completely changed their minds because ketone test strips went from zero to widespread in a matter of months, happily coinciding with the publication of the book geared for athletes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mom2zeke (Post 16126728)
That is the book that Jimmy Moore based his n=1 NK experiment on and it's the book that I've found most useful in my own foray into NK.

Wonderful! But that has nothing to do with your emphatic statements about NK being somehow perfected in the Performance book, or, really, anything else you have said about the difference in the two books or the podcasts Phinney has done both before and after the books were published.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mom2zeke (Post 16126728)
If you're losing and you're happy with your results then you're right it doesn't really matter, but is it really NK? Sounds like Atkins to me and I was pretty successful with Atkins for 11 years. But for me it did stop working to lose after a while.

Yes. It really is NK. I realize you do not believe it. We don't have a shrug emote. Oh well.

Can I ask you a question though? According to you: You can do everything 100% by the book but if you aren't jabbing yourself with that test strip meter you are not following NK. That is what you just said. That is what this whole conversation, such as it is, has revolved around.

Here comes my question:

NK is only available to those fortunate enough to be able to pay $2 to $6 a test strip.

Is that right? If you are living paycheck to paycheck don't bother with NK because if you can't afford those expensive strips well sir u r doing it wrong.

If you have a pathological aversion to needles? Well, you simply will not be able to do NK. Sorry.

Say. Does Phinney or Volek actually write that in the Latest book? They state that sans testing you are not doing NK? It seems unlikely but that is what you are telling me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mom2zeke (Post 16126728)
I've been able to lose beyond my goal and gain LBM following the recommendations in the Performance book (and I'm not an athlete). Needless to say I'm very happy with the results.

Wonderful!! I too have lost weight and broke my months long stall with (not?)NK. I apologize that I do not agree with what you are saying here and elsewhere.

NKSL55 12-09-2012 03:13 PM

Actually, I am torn here.

This discussion is completely appropriate for this forum. It just has that 'Mother Teresa and Ghandi in a cage match' feel to it. Can't look away, but somehow does not feel like something that should happen.

But, again, c'mon guys. You are both being belligerent.

By the way, I kind of side with Kristn on this one. If you test your BK, then you know whether you are in ketosis or not. But, I also see it as an affectation. 'The peasants, they wouldn't know a 2 mM blood ketone reading if it bit them on the nose.' But I freely admit that it is one I gladly employ. Hey, I figure I drink instant coffee instead of Starbucks. That money I can put towards BK testing. If that means I am first up against the wall when the revolution comes, well so be it.

And you can get as many as 4 ketone strips and a monitor for free. So, I mean, there is that.

--
Phillip

reddarin 12-09-2012 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NKSL55 (Post 16126896)
Actually, I am torn here.

This discussion is completely appropriate for this forum. It just has that 'Mother Teresa and Ghandi in a cage match' feel to it. Can't look away, but somehow does not feel like something that should happen.

But, again, c'mon guys. You are both being belligerent.

By the way, I kind of side with Kristn on this one. If you test your BK, then you know whether you are in ketosis or not. But, I also see it as an affectation. 'The peasants, they wouldn't know a 2 mM blood ketone reading if it bit them on the nose.' But I freely admit that it is one I gladly employ. Hey, I figure I drink instant coffee instead of Starbucks. That money I can put towards BK testing. If that means I am first up against the wall when the revolution comes, well so be it.

And you can get as many as 4 ketone strips and a monitor for free. So, I mean, there is that.

--
Phillip

Truly, I avoid responding to Kristn as much as I possibly can. If you look you won't see me replying to any of her posts for months except where she injected herself into the NK thread I started. On the other hand, she challenges me, replying directly to me, with laughable Lemony Snicket constructs and passive aggressive language. It is very tiresome and exceedingly difficult to ignore.

I ask you plainly Phillip, since you believe Kristn to be correct: NK is impossible without blood ketone testing? You really believe that? Not just impossible but 'not NK'?

Really? Not just that, but all of the other eye popping assertions about the Performance book superseding everything before it? Really?

Can you quote any part of the Performance book that says that exact thing? Sans testing it isn't NK?

Surely there is a mandate to test. I cannot fathom her pedantic insistence otherwise.

By the way, this post not withstanding, I also try hard to directly or even indirectly mention her when I make a post that might concern the sacred Performance book.

shelley 12-09-2012 04:32 PM

I"m "sort of" with Phillip here on the back and forth opinions on "both sides". What it means to me is that it makes ME think! I read them with interest from my personal viewpoint on what is pertinent to my body, my health, my mind., ie., ME! I enjoy reading both perspectives. But, like Phillip, to me, if I didn't test I would be more frustrated than I already am because I woudln't know if I was in ketosis or not. And I don't drink Starbuck's either (that was funny) or buy anything unnecessary in my life, so the boxes of ketone strips I bought was like my birthday/Christmas to myself since we do not exchange gifts. I don't know that I would be buying them otherwise beyond the first month or so.

I like both opinions for different reasons. I am dyslexic, so can honestly say that I don't recall any huge difference between the 2 books other than more detail for performance athletes, which was the point in the "performance" book...which is why it was written, and for performance! I have heard P/V are in the process of writing another book for folks like most of us...the non-marathoner who is mainstream and I'm looking forward to that one.

I will report back on what my trainer/nutritionist has to say once she reads both books and Darin's write up at the start of this thread. I see her Friday and will see how far she has come on what I've given her. She is all in favor of the good saturated fats in abundance.....meat...and yet she wants me to have a small amount of veggies and/or a salad daily. She is quite fit, but she's also young and gorgeous!

I do enjoy hearing both perspectives.....and I also enjoy that one is opinion is male and the other female. There is much to learn with differing opinions if stated with respect. So far I don't feel anyone has crossed that line. The ideas are just "different" and the feelings are strong for each person/side.

Hope that makes sense.

mom2zeke 12-09-2012 06:49 PM

I encourage anyone who's interested to read my "Lemony Snicket constructs and passive aggressive language" where I "injected herself into the NK thread I started" go to the "search this thread" tab at the top of each of the four threads and go to advanced search, you can then search for all of the posts by me in each of the threads by my exact name (mom2zeke).

Here are links to the threads:
http://www.lowcarbfriends.com/bbs/nu...80-15-5-a.html
http://www.lowcarbfriends.com/bbs/nu...r-version.html
http://www.lowcarbfriends.com/bbs/nu...r-version.html
http://www.lowcarbfriends.com/bbs/nu...r-version.html

Here are the searches:
Low Carb Friends - Search Results
Low Carb Friends - Search Results
Low Carb Friends - Search Results
Low Carb Friends - Search Results

It's very easy to read everything I've ever posted to those threads and I welcome it:).

As far as I know these boards and threads are open to everyone.

NKSL55 12-09-2012 07:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by reddarin (Post 16126923)
Truly, I avoid responding to Kristn as much as I possibly can. If you look you won't see me replying to any of her posts for months except where she injected herself into the NK thread I started. On the other hand, she challenges me, replying directly to me, with laughable Lemony Snicket constructs and passive aggressive language. It is very tiresome and exceedingly difficult to ignore.

I ask you plainly Phillip, since you believe Kristn to be correct: NK is impossible without blood ketone testing? You really believe that? Not just impossible but 'not NK'?

Impossible? No. I guess some people can just tell they were in ketosis. But the problem there is how do you know if you are one of those people? If you check, even just once, you would have some idea.

Quote:

Originally Posted by reddarin (Post 16126923)
Really? Not just that, but all of the other eye popping assertions about the Performance book superseding everything before it? Really?

Can you quote any part of the Performance book that says that exact thing? Sans testing it isn't NK?

Surely there is a mandate to test. I cannot fathom her pedantic insistence otherwise.

By the way, this post not withstanding, I also try hard to directly or even indirectly mention her when I make a post that might concern the sacred Performance book.

Man, seems like both of you may be taking these books more seriously than Phinney and Volek would! I tend to want to reformulate everything from first principles. Not possible here as I don't have enough background in the subject. But anyway these guys are scientists, so it really is not useful to enter into doctrinal disputes over what they did or did not write -- nor whether they later abrogated something they originally wrote.

I guess if it possible to measure something, seems preferable to do so. That is what I meant when I said I was with Kristn on this one.

But, I have to reiterate how crazy it is for you and Kristn to be at each others throats like this. I mean unless I am missing something, you are actually hurting each others feelings!

I think there are merits to both sides of the dispute here. But, I mean, you guys do get that the vitriol advances nothing, right?

--
Phillip

drjlocarb 12-10-2012 06:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mom2zeke (Post 16126415)
Since the consumer meters to test ketones are relatively new, and the Performance book is their latest book, it's not surprising that they didn't mention it elsewhere. They do say in the Living book, Chapter 13, subheading Ketones, To Measure or Not, "Testing serum for beta-hydroxybutyrate is much more accurate but requires drawing blood, and it is expensive because it is not a routine test that doctors normally order." Which leads to the conclusion that home test meters weren't available when the earlier books were written so of course they aren't mentioned:).

Or, they knew the meters can be inaccurate and health care providers would add this test to regular blood tests. Or, since the definition of Nutritional Ketosis is a blood level for B-OHB to be 0.5-5.0mM, that would imply testing would be the only way to really know. As a healthcare provider implementing this type of diet for patients, testing would provide the evidence of adherence.

Would a healthcare provider NOT test a diabetic while trying lower daily blood glucose to check for adherence?

drjlocarb 12-10-2012 06:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mom2zeke (Post 16126415)

Many people who have thought that they were in ketosis have been surprised when they started testing that they weren't registering ketones via the blood meter. Of course, if you're following the protocol and losing and you don't care if you're actually in ketosis or not then the testing doesn't matter. But if you really want to see if this whole ketosis experiment works, confirmation that you're actually in ketosis is pretty helpful. A free meter with 4 ketone test strips is available so anyone can at least have a few tests without putting out any money.

EXACTLY!

If a general ketogenic diet is working, stop there and enjoy the ride.

If you are "doing it right" and no results, TEST.

If you can't afford the strips, do what you can.

drjlocarb 12-10-2012 06:53 AM

This was a high fat thread until December when it turned into a NK thread.

If you read the first post in the first thread, it was not for NK.

mom2zeke 12-10-2012 08:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drjlocarb (Post 16127793)
Or, they knew the meters can be inaccurate and health care providers would add this test to regular blood tests. Or, since the definition of Nutritional Ketosis is a blood level for B-OHB to be 0.5-5.0mM, that would imply testing would be the only way to really know. As a healthcare provider implementing this type of diet for patients, testing would provide the evidence of adherence.

I guess it's really impossible to know why they included it the Performance and not the Living book:dunno:. The Performance book really ups the ante on personalized nutrition and I wonder if they're surprised to have people reading it and using the suggestions in it who aren't athletes? I would probably never have done it if I hadn't ready Jimmy's post on his n=1 experiment.

Quote:

Would a healthcare provider NOT test a diabetic while trying lower daily blood glucose to check for adherence?
Good point. I wonder how many doctors have read the book(s) and are following the protocol with their patients?

reddarin 12-10-2012 09:09 AM

I'll bow out of this thread with this post and revert to my previous, and heretofore successful, strategy.

:)

NKSL55 12-10-2012 11:20 AM

Okay, I think this is a legitimate discussion, though. I think the case for doing blood ketone level testing is covered in the last few posts. Here is what I see as the down side:

Well, what did I start NK for in the first place? Was it the health benefits? To break a weight loss stall? Something else? None of those actually register on a BK strip? Sure the strips can be a useful indication of whether I am actually controlling my diet such that I end up in ketosis. But with tests of this sort it is possible to lose sight of the initial goal and instead focus on the test itself.

So that is worth keeping in mind.

--
Phillip


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