Low Carb Friends

Low Carb Friends (http://www.lowcarbfriends.com/bbs/)
-   Nutritional Ketosis / High Fat, Low Carb (http://www.lowcarbfriends.com/bbs/nutritional-ketosis-high-fat-low-carb/)
-   -   NK - Phinney & Jimmy Moore - Long Term Stalls podcast (http://www.lowcarbfriends.com/bbs/nutritional-ketosis-high-fat-low-carb/790517-nk-phinney-jimmy-moore-long-term-stalls-podcast.html)

reddarin 12-02-2012 02:17 PM

NK - Phinney & Jimmy Moore - Long Term Stalls podcast
Hello everyone,

I was thinking earlier this week about a new post for our new NK forum and thought this sort of thing would be excellent.

I thought I'd make a post about Jimmy Moore's interview of Dr. Phinney on the topic of Long Term Stalls. They talk about Nutritional Ketosis all throughout the recording and some of it is very specific to those of us doing NK and those thinking about trying NK.

I'll probably do more on other podcasts that JM has done - he has a lot of very good ones.

I have listened to this podcast several times already but it is really packed with information. Today I listened again and made notes on stuff as they talked about it.

Mostly it is just a list formatted like this...

Time: Topic

...but occasionally I make an observation. Generally if I'm quoting Phinney word for word then I'll attribute it to him.

The cool thing is you can read through the list and if anything strikes your fancy you can download the podcast, it is free, then go right to the topic that interested you.

You might have to go backwards 30 seconds or so or wait 30 seconds from the mark before the conversation turns to what I've written down but it'll be pretty close to the time I noted.

Google 'phinney long term stalls' to get the podcast.

I will post it as the second post for easier reference without all my intro stuff about what I am doing and why.


reddarin 12-02-2012 02:18 PM

4:20 - Too much fat as it relates to calories not as a macro!

4:38 - Sodium! Constipation. Light headedness dizziness.

8:00 - 4 pounds of water weight.

12:50 - Exercise in excess is not beneficial for weight loss. Even as little as 14 hours a week will slow metabolism enough to cancel any increase in weight loss from the extra calorie burn. Resting metabolism is slowed down with that level of exercise. That is interesting because he didn't qualify the exercise to exclude resistance work which adds calorie burning muscle tissue. He does state that the reduction in resting metabolism is significant.

17:28 - Exercise seems to have a limit of about 1.5 hours a day max. Take rest days.

18:00 - Set Point Weights - body gets used to a particular weight and refuses to lose weight. Phinney thinks there is evidence for this phenomenon.

20:30 - LC as a long term way of eating.

29:00 - Is the diet wrong or is the goal wrong?

33:45 - 30-35% protein suppresses Nutritional Ketosis

37:00 - Weeks to months to undo metabolic damage. You may need to be patient if you are new to LC especially if your metaboism and body are very damaged coming into it.

39:00 - Excess protein. Small amount will be used for LBM. The body cannot store extra protein as protein.

41:00 - It doesn't take that much extra protein to push you out of NK.

48:30 - Should protein intake be spread out during the day to forestall gluconeogenisis? Phinney: Not sure because he hasn't had funding to study it but it seems reasonable that spreading it out is better.

50:46 - Get under 50g of total carbs a day to break a stall.

52:00 - 53:39 - Losing fat but gaining LBM. Apparent lack of success when starting LC can be due to gaining LBM while losing body fat. It could last one to two months.

56:30 - Never met any non-bedridden adult with a resting metabolism under 1200 calories a day.

59:10 - TOM - Monthly stall. Inflammatory phase just before menses. Cold water fish or fish oil may help too because of omega 3. [ Me - Perhaps reducing carbs as low as possible and not overeating protein would combat this?]

104:03 - Guy 5'9" 175 pounds burns 2500 to 3000k a day

104:30 - Do not have to eat draconian low cal to lose weight.

108:00 - Higher in the ketogenic range (0.5-3.0) only ensures excellent fuel flow. That means that small tweaks in caloric intake should be more beneficial than otherwise. Interesting because that seems to be saying that at the higher end you are more sensitive to calories and therefore should lose weight easier if you are attentive (and don't starve yourself), no?

108:30 - Best time to measure ketones - unknown at this time but they are looking into it and expect to come out with something within 9 months (of this broadcast).

110:36 - Fasting is bad. You will lose LBM from the first day whether you are keto-adapted or not. 1/4 pound to full pound per day. Fasting slows resting metabolism within a day or two of when you start.

112:30 - At least 2 meals a day widely spaced. Concerned about 1 meal per day but that seems to imply that something like the IF window thing could be acceptable if eating well formulated meals.

115:00 - very low calorie negatively affects thyroid. LC, on the other hand, does not negatively impact thyroid. [response to 'must eat carbs' meme].

118:50 - Athletes might need to measure blood ketones (per the Performance book). Which means non-athletes probably do not.

119:15 - Floor for protein is 1.5g/correct_goal_weight_in_kg

120:00 - Too little protein? LC demands more protein than high carb. Safe amount is 1.5g/kg.

121:20 - Not too many overt symptoms of protein deficiency.

127:00 - How does cheat affect keto-adaptation? 3-5 days for 100g carb cheat. Full readapt for bigger cheat.

136:30 - Thyroid dosage impacts weight loss. Dr. supervision to tweak dosage.

145:00 - "Clearly there are set points" - Phinney

shelley 12-02-2012 02:24 PM

Great job....with dial up connections in the boonies where I live,there is no way I can listen to the podcasts, so very much appreciate you doing all the listening, research and informing for people like me. You are very very much appreciated!!!! Thanks!

Anjikun 12-02-2012 02:37 PM

I've been listening to this podcast today as well, after it was mentioned on the main thread. I thought I had already listened to it, but it's one of Jimmy's podcasts that I missed. Very interesting!

reddarin 12-02-2012 03:20 PM

Hmmm. I missed this on the list.

1:20:40 - ".8/kg is too low on LC diet" - Phinney. He goes on to recommend 1.5-2.0/kg.

portcop01 12-02-2012 04:05 PM

Great job there Red so what does that mean??how much protein should I be getting at goal weight of 135?

portcop01 12-02-2012 04:31 PM

So that would put me at 91 grams of protein???thats a lot!!!i have a hard time getting in 50 at this point!!

reddarin 12-02-2012 04:40 PM

Yes, that is about right Becky - right at 91g of protein a day for 135 pounds at 1.5g per kg.

I thought that was pretty interesting because he was pretty clear about 1.5g being the minimal amount and the window being up to 2.0g.


portcop01 12-02-2012 04:52 PM

Do you think I will lose weight with that much!!

mom2zeke 12-02-2012 05:58 PM

Just wondering if anyone knows exactly what Dr. Phinney means in both the podcast and the Living book by the term "reference weight"? He specifically mentions it in the answer at 120:00 when he's talking about his own needs and it's part of the Living book's protein recommendation (1.5g of protein per kilo of "reference weight"). It seems to be some kind of ideal weight by height, but there isn't a chart for it anywhere I can find. I do only have the kindle Living book, maybe it's in the print copy?

reddarin 12-02-2012 06:05 PM


Originally Posted by portcop01 (Post 16113084)
Do you think I will lose weight with that much!!

Yes. It shouldn't be too much protein for you and there are only about 400 calories in 91g of protein so it isn't going to push your calories too high either.


shelley 12-02-2012 06:15 PM


Originally Posted by portcop01 (Post 16113084)
Do you think I will lose weight with that much!!

Becky...I gained weight on the lower protein and lower calories. Tried it for a long time and it was a disaster. I just raised my protein and calories per the latest numbers Major Red gave me, and I've dropped weight and am "only" .2# higher than when I started, but it beats the 5# I had gained doing lower protein and lower calories! Try it. You might like it! :laugh:

spirilis 01-03-2013 12:50 PM

My low-carb hiatus has come to an end, and here I find you guys have created a whole subforum on Phinney & Volek's book (NK theory) and there have even been new podcasts/developments on the topic! Amazing, and Happy New Year everyone..... Consider me back on board, I was hugely enthusiastic about Art & Science when it came out (or actually when Dr. Eades pimped it on his twitter feed)

reddarin 01-03-2013 12:54 PM

Welcome back :)

dasschus 03-10-2013 12:32 PM

Some very good info here. Actually just what I needed. Thank you for taking the time to post all of it.


MerryKate 03-10-2013 08:30 PM


Originally Posted by reddarin (Post 16112790)

59:10 - TOM - Monthly stall. Inflammatory phase just before menses. Cold water fish or fish oil may help too because of omega 3. [Me - Perhaps reducing carbs as low as possible and not overeating protein would combat this?]

Thanks for posting this part...this is something the women on the NK list have discussed, but until now we didn't have any reference information. I've found flax and fish oil both help....guess it's the omega-3s?

Punkin 03-11-2013 06:26 AM

I don't know if this is true or not, but in one of Gary Taubes books he talks about research results done on genetically fat mice. When they are calorie deprived, the body works to maintain its fat stores, by doing one of two things: Decreasing their metabolism and/or burning skeletal muscle mass. Either of these things will show up as a stall.

My take on it, means that in humans if we have similar genetics to these mice, we have to make sure we fuel our bodies with HF and not restrict our calories too much, to avoid this type of stall.

raindroproses 04-01-2013 10:51 PM

Great information, and I missed this last month... thanks for bumping! :)

I can't WAIT until my thyroid condition is under control, because I've already seen decent progress (for me anyway) thus far but I KNOW I'm being slowed by that! Not to mention all the other nasty symptoms I've been experiencing too, yikes.

I do wonder if I've been under-eating protein though. I've been going with the 1-1.5 range, and eating closer to the 1 range. I have seemed to lose when I'm there versus much higher though, so maybe my body's just different? I know it's never below 1 for my goal weight though! I thought I heard before that the cut off to where you'll start burning LBM is at .8 or something?

lisamt 04-04-2013 04:02 PM

I finally listened to the podcast, and was encouraged to hear that the anti-inflammatory effect of a very low carb diet may be beneficial for women going through menopause. He said it may be harder to get keto adapted while in menopause but not impossible. I've not started menopause yet, but it will be interesting to see how my body deals with that phase if I stay keto adapted.

Dr. Phinney's concerns about fasting seem to be with lack of protein leading to loss of LBM. Most variations of IF that I have read about about don't advocate water only fasting, but a strict window of eating within a set number of hours or alternating low calorie days with higher calorie days. My take away is that IF and NK could be compatible if protein intake is adequate.

speds 04-29-2013 11:12 AM

Interesting (just read your excellent cliff notes). I'm curious about his comments about fasting - I was planning to couple my HF/LC plan with intermittent fasting. Maybe I'll rethink that plan a bit (and listen to this podcast too).

reddarin 04-29-2013 11:59 AM


Originally Posted by speds (Post 16399669)
Interesting (just read your excellent cliff notes). I'm curious about his comments about fasting - I was planning to couple my HF/LC plan with intermittent fasting. Maybe I'll rethink that plan a bit (and listen to this podcast too).

Thank you :)

JM is a fan of IF, if indirectly, and he challenges Phinney on the issue by bringing up the nature of NK's appetite suppression. He said he naturally goes for 12 hours between breakfast and dinner and sometimes much longer if he is busy.

Phinney capitulates to some degree and agrees that as long as the menu is well formulated and you eat at least two meals a day it should be okay.

I think Phinney is concerned about extreme IF causing loss of LBM. Your body can only process so much protein at one time and excess will be converted to glucose. In clinical trial(s) he noted that loss of LBM happens within 24 hours of insufficient protein intake.

It is funny. I mentioned that on a thread in the Lobby and I was told by a fan of IF that I should speak of even the possibility of loss of LBM because it might 'scare' off people from trying it lol. Yeow! I don't personally want strangers to decide things like that for me ykwim?

AnnetteW 05-18-2013 08:37 AM

I've been looking for this podcast. Does anyone know which number it is? Thanks for the help.

AnnetteW 05-18-2013 11:35 AM

I found it. Didn't know it was on the other podcast. I never listened to that one.

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