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-   -   Restarting NK again (http://www.lowcarbfriends.com/bbs/nutritional-ketosis-high-fat-low-carb/790507-restarting-nk-again.html)

lowcarbella 12-02-2012 08:53 AM

Restarting NK again
 
My first attempt at NK wasn't yeilding results,so I started doing a whole lot research on this WOE,bcoz I know this is the only way for me to lose the last 50 lbs,as I am very metabolically resistant.I am also successfully continuing my stall well into the fourth month:laugh:
I have been collecting a lot of recipes as I am allergic to eggs,diary nuts etc so need more workarounds.My meters have arrived and I will measure and log everything correctly.I am determined and accepting this challenge to make NK work for me....maybe I need to tweak it until I finally find that sweet spot where I start losing.Also I have discovered there is no other place to go.:dunno:
I was surprised I met a few other diets that are similar to NK,maybe not exact ratios etc,but definitely supporting a LCHFMP type of diet.
I just thought I would share what I found:

A diet called Silver Cloud Diet by Dr Salerno.He has worked with Dr Atkins in the past and he is a big supporter of the Fat Fast.I had never heard of him b4.He has successfully used the concepts of NK and Fat fast for metabolically challenged patients of his to do a diet for 4 weeks after which they ease into low carb.

The Banta diet
Now this diet goes along the lines of ketogenic diets.It uses a keto index , a ratio of fat to protein to carb.Lots of recipe ideas.I have the book.

Ketogenic diets for epilepsy
Lots of recipe ideas.Uses Keto index.A 4 KI is theraupatic and used in clinical studies for cancer ,epilepsy etc.

Fat fast recipe book by Dana Carpender,Rebecca Latham and one other lady.Lots of recipe ideas to kickstart NK.

Hope this helps with planning for someone who needs lots of recipes/ideas /workarounds.
Will keep you all updated on how it goes.:aprayer:

lowcarbella 12-02-2012 08:55 AM

All the above diets lets you go into deep ketosis when done correctly,I assume.
Which is what we want after all,despite what names they call it.

brandilynn1313 12-02-2012 08:56 AM

Lowcarbella, if you need foods and have many 'cants' a really good option (that gives you recipes after you set "filters" of what you do/do not want in the recipe.

Google up The Food Lovers Kitchen primal palate.

GME 12-02-2012 09:02 AM

I also have the allergy restrictions you do. I'll check out those books. They look helpful.

The website looks great too. Thanks!

mom2zeke 12-02-2012 09:03 AM

Hi Lowcarbella,
I'm sorry to hear about all of your food allergies!

Isn't it interesting that there are so many similar WOEs? I think that NK has a lot in common with the ones you mentioned and also Eat Fat, Get Thin, The Rosedale Diet, The Optimal Diet, and I'm sure there are more!

What I love about The Art and Science of Low Carb Performance is the emphasis on personalized nutrition and testing! Maybe it's the geek in me, but I love having the personal data to tweak the plan.

tablis 12-02-2012 09:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lowcarbella (Post 16112345)
My first attempt at NK wasn't yeilding results,so I started doing a whole lot research on this WOE,bcoz I know this is the only way for me to lose the last 50 lbs,as I am very metabolically resistant.I am also successfully continuing my stall well into the fourth month:laugh:
I have been collecting a lot of recipes as I am allergic to eggs,diary nuts etc so need more workarounds.My meters have arrived and I will measure and log everything correctly.I am determined and accepting this challenge to make NK work for me....maybe I need to tweak it until I finally find that sweet spot where I start losing.Also I have discovered there is no other place to go.:dunno:
I was surprised I met a few other diets that are similar to NK,maybe not exact ratios etc,but definitely supporting a LCHFMP type of diet.
I just thought I would share what I found:

A diet called Silver Cloud Diet by Dr Salerno.He has worked with Dr Atkins in the past and he is a big supporter of the Fat Fast.I had never heard of him b4.He has successfully used the concepts of NK and Fat fast for metabolically challenged patients of his to do a diet for 4 weeks after which they ease into low carb.

The Banta diet
Now this diet goes along the lines of ketogenic diets.It uses a keto index , a ratio of fat to protein to carb.Lots of recipe ideas.I have the book.

Ketogenic diets for epilepsy
Lots of recipe ideas.Uses Keto index.A 4 KI is theraupatic and used in clinical studies for cancer ,epilepsy etc.

Fat fast recipe book by Dana Carpender,Rebecca Latham and one other lady.Lots of recipe ideas to kickstart NK.

Hope this helps with planning for someone who needs lots of recipes/ideas /workarounds.
Will keep you all updated on how it goes.:aprayer:

Good luck looking fw to seeing how you make this work!

drjlocarb 12-02-2012 11:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mom2zeke (Post 16112362)

Isn't it interesting that there are so many similar WOEs?

What I love about The Art and Science of Low Carb Performance is the emphasis on personalized nutrition and testing!

Testing IS what makes Nutritional Ketosis what it is. You can do similar plans, but the TESTING is where the distinction is made. If you are not testing, can you really say you are losing weight/not losing weight because you are doing Nutritional Ketosis?

Are you losing because you are doing LC and don't need NK?
Are you NOT losing because your carbs are too high(20g or 50g, net or total) and you are not in ketosis at all?
Is it not working because you are supplying too many fat grams so the body doesn't have to supply any?
Do you know if you are keto-adapted before you start tweaking protein and/or fat

So many variables. Where do you start? How can I ask for help if I don't know what the numbers are? How can we dissect a WOE if we are not all on the same playing field. Ratios and percentages are just numbers and don't tell us anything about ketone blood levels.

Ketone blood levels are HOW Nutritional Ketosis is defined.

That said, YES,you can lose weight without testing anything.
Can others help you tweek without testing? :dunno:

svenskamae 12-03-2012 04:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lowcarbella (Post 16112345)
I was surprised I met a few other diets that are similar to NK,maybe not exact ratios etc,but definitely supporting a LCHFMP type of diet.
I just thought I would share what I found:

A diet called Silver Cloud Diet by Dr Salerno.He has worked with Dr Atkins in the past and he is a big supporter of the Fat Fast.I had never heard of him b4.He has successfully used the concepts of NK and Fat fast for metabolically challenged patients of his to do a diet for 4 weeks after which they ease into low carb.

The Banta diet
Now this diet goes along the lines of ketogenic diets.It uses a keto index , a ratio of fat to protein to carb.Lots of recipe ideas.I have the book.

Ketogenic diets for epilepsy
Lots of recipe ideas.Uses Keto index.A 4 KI is theraupatic and used in clinical studies for cancer ,epilepsy etc.

Fat fast recipe book by Dana Carpender,Rebecca Latham and one other lady.Lots of recipe ideas to kickstart NK.

Hope this helps with planning for someone who needs lots of recipes/ideas /workarounds.
Will keep you all updated on how it goes.:aprayer:

Where did you find, and what is the exact title for, the Fat fast recipe book by Dana Carpenter and others? I've looked on Dana Carpenter's blog and on Amazon, and I'm not seeing a fat fast recipe book--just several low carb cookbooks, calorie/carb counter books, and one paleo recipe book.

lowcarbella 12-04-2012 06:03 AM

The book was supposed to be released in december,but now the website says early jan 2013.Can't post a link here I suppose but I think the name is Fat Fast recipes or something.It is a kindle edition.
Rebecca latham and Amy dungam are the other authors.

I caved in and bought the Dr Salerno's diet,he has a lot of ideas/recipes in his book for extended fat fasting.

I agree NK's highlights are testing and personalization.But IMO both their books(P/V books ) were not geared for people like me.The first one was geeky yet very good info,and the second one was geared towards athletes.I am not both.Also I think high performance athletes may not be as insulin resistant as I am,nor they may have trouble getting into NK,and probably tolerate more protein.For example,none of the recipes suggested in the book seem a good fit for my personal limits for protein and carbs.

In the future,P/V or some other great authors may put together a much more practical book for highly resistant people,giving them ideas for kickstarting NK.I already hear rumor that Jimmy Moore may come up with a book on his own n=1.But remember he is male,over 6 foot tall and highly active etc so what works for him may not work for me.

So that is why I refuse to be in the protocol group and stick to only one book, and perhaps experiment around a little bit,finding what works for me.By looking at similar plans and varying my ratios,I may finally get it going.
I buy the science behind it,but it doesn't have to be done acc to only one set of protocol.

To me if I am in Ketosis acc to blood tests,but not lose any weight at all,I am not sure I can live with that.I simply cannot keep doing the same thing over and over again and expect the results to be different at some future,say after many years.I want to find out whats wrong or tweak until I get results.And I want results quickly,bcoz life is short.In other words I want to lose weight at least by next year,not wait for another decade to pass by b4 I find out whats wrong.
That explains perhaps why I flip around with plans,but if i find success finally I will sure share it here.Right now I am convinced Fat fast will help me somehow,since I am stalled for 4 months.
My plan is to start with a fat fast,then transition to an extended fat fast,then slowly increase my protein in increments ,keeping carbs under 20, and fat very high in 70-90%.That way perhaps I may find a level that is suitable for weight loss,and I suspect the recommended protein ranges are too high.I may also have to stay away from certain suspect stall foods,then slowly work them one by one into my diet . At least this is my current plan.

clackley 12-04-2012 06:23 AM

I agree that the N.K. advantage is testing and I thank all of you here for being so generous with your results as that provides a skeleton of a guideline for those of us who are not testing.

I would say that another key component to n.k. is weighing, measuring, and logging. I can't see how this would work without that. I know for myself, there was a big learning curve in discovering how and what contained protein and how much.

In regards to getting the weight off quickly - well I think we all want that but the truth is that it may not be possible. It may be a case of proper nutrition and then allowing time for whatever changes the body needs to make (if possible).

Personal experience - I continued to gain on n.k. - very slowly but gaining. Only after about 5 months have I started to see that reverse. Who knows if it is going to continue but I have no other options at the moment and this woe makes the most sense to me.

portcop01 12-04-2012 06:46 AM

These statements make a lot of sense.i to am playing around with NK that works for me.it so confusing .but it does work I think each of us is different when it comes to protein.but carbs and fat I think are pretty set.

shelley 12-04-2012 09:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by clackley (Post 16116254)

Personal experience - I continued to gain on n.k. - very slowly but gaining. Only after about 5 months have I started to see that reverse. Who knows if it is going to continue but I have no other options at the moment and this woe makes the most sense to me.

This is my experience as well. I gained very slowly the first 3 months. I'm into month #4 and I finally got "into" ketosis on the strip this morning (.6) and the scale dropped about a pound! Woo hoo...I'm finally "lower" on the scale than I was when I started in August. I achieved this by upping my calories, upping my protein and not upping my fat, but adding in 2 cups of BPC a day! I have to really force myself to eat more at night to reach my "base" level of calories. I like to eat far less!

cici52 12-04-2012 10:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lowcarbella (Post 16116210)
The book was supposed to be released in december,but now the website says early jan 2013.Can't post a link here I suppose but I think the name is Fat Fast recipes or something.It is a kindle edition.
Rebecca latham and Amy dungam are the other authors.

I caved in and bought the Dr Salerno's diet,he has a lot of ideas/recipes in his book for extended fat fasting.

I agree NK's highlights are testing and personalization.But IMO both their books(P/V books ) were not geared for people like me.The first one was geeky yet very good info,and the second one was geared towards athletes.I am not both.Also I think high performance athletes may not be as insulin resistant as I am,nor they may have trouble getting into NK,and probably tolerate more protein.For example,none of the recipes suggested in the book seem a good fit for my personal limits for protein and carbs.

In the future,P/V or some other great authors may put together a much more practical book for highly resistant people,giving them ideas for kickstarting NK.I already hear rumor that Jimmy Moore may come up with a book on his own n=1.But remember he is male,over 6 foot tall and highly active etc so what works for him may not work for me.

So that is why I refuse to be in the protocol group and stick to only one book, and perhaps experiment around a little bit,finding what works for me.By looking at similar plans and varying my ratios,I may finally get it going.
I buy the science behind it,but it doesn't have to be done acc to only one set of protocol.

To me if I am in Ketosis acc to blood tests,but not lose any weight at all,I am not sure I can live with that.I simply cannot keep doing the same thing over and over again and expect the results to be different at some future,say after many years.I want to find out whats wrong or tweak until I get results.And I want results quickly,bcoz life is short.In other words I want to lose weight at least by next year,not wait for another decade to pass by b4 I find out whats wrong.
That explains perhaps why I flip around with plans,but if i find success finally I will sure share it here.Right now I am convinced Fat fast will help me somehow,since I am stalled for 4 months.
My plan is to start with a fat fast,then transition to an extended fat fast,then slowly increase my protein in increments ,keeping carbs under 20, and fat very high in 70-90%.That way perhaps I may find a level that is suitable for weight loss,and I suspect the recommended protein ranges are too high.I may also have to stay away from certain suspect stall foods,then slowly work them one by one into my diet . At least this is my current plan.

:clap::clap::clap:Just want to cheer. So agree with your approach. I have also been reading other things and am accutely aware of the many variences on the same theme. Want to give you all the support. Hope you will continue to feed back here.

I may be in the same boat but it is too soon to tell with this WOE for me. But, I am still not below my set point for the past couple years and the scale bounced up a bit this morning again. I don't worry about the bounce as that is a regular up and down thing but am impatient to get rid of the next 50 pounds.

lowcarbella 12-04-2012 10:41 AM

Thanks Cici.
My only regret is that I picked the wrong time of year for the new WOE.Dec is already here and family is visiting next week,and it will be a wild carb fest whether I like it or not.I don't plan to go off plan,but staying even regular LC will be tough,so not sure about a fat fast in the middle of all that.:stars:
but even if I do mess up,Jan is a nice time to restart and hopefully the cookbook will be here too.
Oh and in my current plan,I would test every few days starting from the fat fast so I would know at what changes I make I am being knocked out of ketosis.Now only if they had a 'end of year blowout sale' on those strips:hyst:

bjjcaveman 12-30-2012 07:54 AM

Lowcarbella - just wanted to see how your progress is going!

lowcarbella 01-02-2013 07:16 PM

Well I did have great success doing it ,broke my 4 month stall,lost 6 pounds but it didn't last long.:-((((
The holidays took over ,I had a stomach bug etc and gained 8 pounds...ughhhh.
yes it was a wrong time to start.
Anyway back to Lc from Jan 1 and planning to repeat my experiments(sigh)
At least now I know it might work.

bjjcaveman 01-02-2013 08:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lowcarbella (Post 16167314)
Well I did have great success doing it ,broke my 4 month stall,lost 6 pounds but it didn't last long.:-((((
The holidays took over ,I had a stomach bug etc and gained 8 pounds...ughhhh.
yes it was a wrong time to start.
Anyway back to Lc from Jan 1 and planning to repeat my experiments(sigh)
At least now I know it might work.

Glad to see you get back on the horse. The holidays are always dangerous!

I'm pulling for you! Keep us updated.

Mimosa23 01-04-2013 11:35 PM

Not sure if it has been mentioned before but since I have been lurking here and reading everything I can about NK and LCHF there is.... I recently read a book called "Lose weight by eating the Scandinavian diet" written by Sten Sture Skaldeman.
It is a very straightforward read, does not really go deeply into the science of it all. He does use some research examples and has loads of recipes and menu suggestions. For those who need some examples it is very helpful and a good companion to the more scientific books out there....

clackley 01-05-2013 07:04 AM

Just wanted to say :hiya: Mimosa!! Good to see that you are still around.:)

Mimosa23 01-05-2013 09:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by clackley (Post 16172941)
Just wanted to say :hiya: Mimosa!! Good to see that you are still around.:)

Hey you! Yes still around.... Back to being serious about my weight and health... :hiya:

shelley 01-05-2013 10:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mimosa23 (Post 16172539)
Not sure if it has been mentioned before but since I have been lurking here and reading everything I can about NK and LCHF there is.... I recently read a book called "Lose weight by eating the Scandinavian diet" written by Sten Sture Skaldeman.
It is a very straightforward read, does not really go deeply into the science of it all. He does use some research examples and has loads of recipes and menu suggestions. For those who need some examples it is very helpful and a good companion to the more scientific books out there....

Hi....Skaldeman's book is the one several of us are counting on to be true. That it "can" take up to 6 months (and longer) to get keto adapted. There are a few of us doing the NK program and testing and not getting the results others are getting, so we are hoping that Skaldeman is correct......but thanks for bringing the title/author to the attention of the new people since it was last discussed.

Welcome to our group....post often!!!

Mimosa23 01-05-2013 11:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shelley (Post 16173540)
Hi....Skaldeman's book is the one several of us are counting on to be true. That it "can" take up to 6 months (and longer) to get keto adapted. There are a few of us doing the NK program and testing and not getting the results others are getting, so we are hoping that Skaldeman is correct......but thanks for bringing the title/author to the attention of the new people since it was last discussed.

Welcome to our group....post often!!!

Shelley, thanks for the welcome! As you can see from my first post here, I still have to catch up on a lot of reading.... Will try and be a participating member here!


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