Low Carb Friends  
Netrition.com - Tools - Reviews - Faces - Recipes - Home


Go Back   Low Carb Friends > Eating and Exercise Plans > Weight Loss Plans > Nutritional Ketosis / High Fat, Low Carb
Register FAQ Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 12-01-2012, 03:06 PM   #1
Major LCF Poster!
 
mom2zeke's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Seattle
Posts: 2,591
Gallery: mom2zeke
Stats: 257/144.8/150
WOE: Nutritional Ketosis--Maintenance!
Start Date: August 6, 2001
The Art and Science of Low Carb Performance

The Art and Science of Low Carb Performance

Is anyone interested in a discussion of this book? This is the book that got Jimmy Moore started on NK which then started some of us down that path. It introduced the concept of using a meter to test for blood ketones and that their may be an ideal "zone" for staying in ketosis long-term.

At first when I read it I thought that it was just about athletes and didn't apply to me as much. But I've had a chance to re-read it and there is a lot of good information there for everyone working towards NK.

What are your favorite tidbits from the book?

What do you think about the contradictions that exist between this book and the other books written by the authors? Contradictions with the interviews and lectures?

If you haven't read it--get yourself a copy and join in the discussion!
__________________
Kristn
50 yo
LC since 2001
257/144.8/150
BF% Goal 26%/20%/20%
February Nutritional Ketosis...Are you in the zone?
Nutritional Ketosis Thread Information and Posts of Interest
My Maintenance Journal
Original weight 2001--257 Maintaining 165-175 from 2002-March 2012
March 2012 to August 2012--175/150 Made Goal 8/27/12!
mom2zeke is offline   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old 12-01-2012, 06:18 PM   #2
Chatty Cathy
 
clackley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Ontario
Posts: 16,192
Gallery: clackley
Stats: 228.5/168/125
WOE: N.K.=vlc/hf/moderate protein & organic/pastured
Start Date: Restart Oct 18 2009
I loved this book and my copy is marked and dog eared through out! It was written for p.c.p. in an attempt to help them prescribe this way of eating for some of their patients. When I mentioned it to my doctor, he wrote down the name and suggested that he was going to read it.......

I think it is an important book for all low carbers.
clackley is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2012, 07:10 PM   #3
Senior LCF Member
 
Gretalyn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Albuquerque
Posts: 852
Gallery: Gretalyn
Stats: maintenance
WOE: Nutritional Ketosis
Start Date: off and on since 2004, on to stay since March 2011
I'm just reading it now, only a few chapters in. But I'd love to join in and post thoughts/questions as they come up.
Gretalyn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2012, 07:24 PM   #4
Senior LCF Member
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 866
Gallery: shelley
I read the book and gave it to my personal trainer yesterday (along with the orig. book) and she's going to take a look at it. She does lowcarb and is a brilliant person, so will be interesting to hear her thoughts.
shelley is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2012, 01:57 AM   #5
Senior LCF Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 309
Gallery: tablis
WOE: NK
Start Date: 10/29/2012
i have to order this book!
tablis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2012, 05:52 AM   #6
Chatty Cathy
 
clackley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Ontario
Posts: 16,192
Gallery: clackley
Stats: 228.5/168/125
WOE: N.K.=vlc/hf/moderate protein & organic/pastured
Start Date: Restart Oct 18 2009
OOps, I made a mistake and thought we were talking the earlier book, 'living'. I wonder if there is any benefit to ready the 'performance' for someone like myself, who is not into fitness training?
clackley is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2012, 06:25 AM   #7
Senior LCF Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 140
Gallery: EllaP
Stats: 229/144/139
WOE: HF/MP/VLC
Quote:
Originally Posted by clackley View Post
OOps, I made a mistake and thought we were talking the earlier book, 'living'. I wonder if there is any benefit to ready the 'performance' for someone like myself, who is not into fitness training?
Was wondering the same. I'm not an exerciser and won't kid myself by saying I might some day. I may take up walking again, but even then I'm not sure how much of a commitment I'll make.

I may have to get both books once I get myself a Kindle.
EllaP is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2012, 06:29 AM   #8
Very Gabby LCF Member!!!
 
Nelle Belle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: NNJ and Fl gulf coast when I can get there.
Posts: 4,638
Gallery: Nelle Belle
I just got the book, haven't started reading yet. Can someone give a book report?
Nelle Belle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2012, 06:47 AM   #9
Senior LCF Member
 
Gretalyn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Albuquerque
Posts: 852
Gallery: Gretalyn
Stats: maintenance
WOE: Nutritional Ketosis
Start Date: off and on since 2004, on to stay since March 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by clackley View Post
OOps, I made a mistake and thought we were talking the earlier book, 'living'. I wonder if there is any benefit to ready the 'performance' for someone like myself, who is not into fitness training?
I was coming back to post that I'd made the same mistake! I am on chapter six of the original, living, book right now. I do own the performance book - bought it mostly for my hubby though as I am a "light to moderate" type of exerciser and have never in my life worried about athletic performance. But I would love to hear if someone like me could benefit from reading it. I'll plan to do so once I finish the first book.
Gretalyn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2012, 07:07 AM   #10
Junior LCF Member
 
panabax's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 24
Gallery: panabax
Stats: 320/205/175
WOE: NK
Start Date: 11/16/2012
I am a former 320 lb couch potato now Ironman triathlete. I read the book two weeks ago and made the jump the next day. I am one week out from running the Dallas marathon and I had a great run yesterday and another great run today. I think my adaptation is in full swing. By contrast, my runs last weekend SUCKED and I am eating less carbs this week than last (just counting everything). I was looking for a way to knock off my last 30 lbs and I hope this is it. I am certainly much less preoccupied with food today than over the past year.

It was looking for more information that led me to this site. I will keep you all posted, but I am feeling great. There is something substantially correct in Phinney's hypothesis I think.
panabax is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2012, 08:48 AM   #11
Major LCF Poster!
 
mom2zeke's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Seattle
Posts: 2,591
Gallery: mom2zeke
Stats: 257/144.8/150
WOE: Nutritional Ketosis--Maintenance!
Start Date: August 6, 2001
I think it would be great to discuss both books on this thread. I'm going to re-read the Living book so I can add more to the discussion. I also plan on re-listening to Dr. Phinney's long-term stalls podcast with Jimmy Moore this afternoon.

For those reading the Living book, are there particular sections that you found helpful? If you've read both are there any contradictions?

I am not an athlete, but I do workout regularly. I'm not sure what category that puts me in. I found the Performance book very worthwhile and it didn't just apply to athletes.
mom2zeke is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2012, 08:50 AM   #12
GME
Big Yapper!!!!
 
GME's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: CA Coast
Posts: 9,169
Gallery: GME
Stats: 250/166/175 And again...223/215.0/146 5'7
WOE: Misc.
Start Date: April 2000 (the first time)
I fiddle around with NK, but recently found out I am allergic to dairy. My NK diet was pretty heavy on cream, crem cheese, etc so that will take some adjustment.

I picked up the book on Amazon when the Kindle version was in the super cheap section. I think I paid $1.75 for it right before I went on vacation last summer. I hadn't heard of their other book. I was ready to make the switch right then and there, but we had packed the RV with the wrong foods and I was stuck with them for a week.

I am normally a distance runner, but have been sidelined for a year and a half with achilles problems. I am having surgery in a few weeks and hope to get back to it after that.

The book is heavy on the science, but that was good to read after being inundated for so long about carb loading. I ate low carb for years, but I would target carbs around my running. A bowl of oatmeal can only last so long on a 15 mile run though. My stomach can't handle much food while running, so it was always a challenge. I have vast fat stores I would love to tap into (especially since I quit running).

It has been a while since I read the book, but I plan to go through it again and plan some menus while I am laid up from surgery.
__________________
Gina
GME is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2012, 02:30 PM   #13
Major LCF Poster!
 
mom2zeke's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Seattle
Posts: 2,591
Gallery: mom2zeke
Stats: 257/144.8/150
WOE: Nutritional Ketosis--Maintenance!
Start Date: August 6, 2001
Is anyone else a bit confused about the difference in protein recommendations between the books and Dr. Phinney's podcast?

In the Living book they recommend 1.5-2g protein per kg of reference body weight. Strangely enough reference weight isn't the same thing as goal weight and I can't find a definition or chart of it in the book. And they also say that "No one has ever shown that more that 1.5gram/kg improves human protein synthesis...That said, however, generations of power athletes have made the empiric observation that they train and compete better on proportionally higher protein intakes (e.g., 1.5 to 2.5 grams per kg)."

But then in the Performance book they spell out multiple times that the range for protein should be .6 to 1 x lean body mass. Wouldn't the ranges for athletes be higher than the general public that the Living book is geared towards?

Then in Dr. Phinney's podcast with Jimmy Moore he continues to reference 1.5-2grams/kg from the Living book. He also refers to a protein chart that is in the NANY book which has ranges by height that don't seem to correspond (Jimmy has copied this is the notes for the podcast in case anyone is interested).

Any thoughts?
mom2zeke is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2012, 02:57 PM   #14
Very Gabby LCF Member!!!
 
Nelle Belle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: NNJ and Fl gulf coast when I can get there.
Posts: 4,638
Gallery: Nelle Belle
Well I started reading the book on my Kindle but there is too much science in it for me. I wish I had copy of real book so I could flip around and read. Hard to do on a kindle.
Nelle Belle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2012, 03:17 PM   #15
Senior LCF Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 140
Gallery: EllaP
Stats: 229/144/139
WOE: HF/MP/VLC
Quote:
Originally Posted by mom2zeke View Post
Is anyone else a bit confused about the difference in protein recommendations between the books and Dr. Phinney's podcast?

In the Living book they recommend 1.5-2g protein per kg of reference body weight. Strangely enough reference weight isn't the same thing as goal weight and I can't find a definition or chart of it in the book. And they also say that "No one has ever shown that more that 1.5gram/kg improves human protein synthesis...That said, however, generations of power athletes have made the empiric observation that they train and compete better on proportionally higher protein intakes (e.g., 1.5 to 2.5 grams per kg)."

But then in the Performance book they spell out multiple times that the range for protein should be .6 to 1 x lean body mass. Wouldn't the ranges for athletes be higher than the general public that the Living book is geared towards?

Then in Dr. Phinney's podcast with Jimmy Moore he continues to reference 1.5-2grams/kg from the Living book. He also refers to a protein chart that is in the NANY book which has ranges by height that don't seem to correspond (Jimmy has copied this is the notes for the podcast in case anyone is interested).

Any thoughts?
I don't have either book, but it looks like the Performance book uses "pounds" as it's weight measure and the Living book uses "kilograms" and perhaps the difference between entire weight and LBM changes the range indices, as well?
EllaP is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2012, 03:27 PM   #16
Major LCF Poster!
 
mom2zeke's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Seattle
Posts: 2,591
Gallery: mom2zeke
Stats: 257/144.8/150
WOE: Nutritional Ketosis--Maintenance!
Start Date: August 6, 2001
Quote:
Originally Posted by EllaP View Post
I don't have either book, but it looks like the Performance book uses "pounds" as it's weight measure and the Living book uses "kilograms" and perhaps the difference between entire weight and LBM changes the range indices, as well?
Another difference is the use of lean body mass vs. total weight. Lean body mass seems on the surface to be more accurate since LBM will require more protein than fat so it should be accounted for in the calculation. But I'm not sure if that's a correct assumption to make.

For me, the Performance range is 72-120 and the Living range is 102-136. That's 30 grams of protein difference on the lower end!
mom2zeke is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2012, 03:41 PM   #17
GME
Big Yapper!!!!
 
GME's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: CA Coast
Posts: 9,169
Gallery: GME
Stats: 250/166/175 And again...223/215.0/146 5'7
WOE: Misc.
Start Date: April 2000 (the first time)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nelle Belle View Post
Well I started reading the book on my Kindle but there is too much science in it for me. I wish I had copy of real book so I could flip around and read. Hard to do on a kindle.
Me too.
GME is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2012, 04:07 PM   #18
Major LCF Poster!
 
mom2zeke's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Seattle
Posts: 2,591
Gallery: mom2zeke
Stats: 257/144.8/150
WOE: Nutritional Ketosis--Maintenance!
Start Date: August 6, 2001
Interesting! The fourth paragraph in the answer on that first link:

"After much toing and froing and research had been done it was eventually found that a protein intake of about 1.5 g/kg of lean body mass (LBM; note that researchers actually used Ideal Body Weight but this is a rough proxy for LBM) was necessary to spare LBM losses in a non-training obese individual consuming low calories."

I wonder if the "reference weight" that is referred to in the Living book is "ideal body weight" and is actually a rough measure of LBM? That may be where the confusion is coming from.
mom2zeke is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2012, 04:10 PM   #19
Major LCF Poster!
 
portcop01's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: virginia
Posts: 1,279
Gallery: portcop01
Stats: 197-148-130
WOE: Lc
Start Date: July 15
Don't you think 91 grams protein is to high for losing weight?
portcop01 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2012, 04:16 PM   #20
Senior LCF Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 140
Gallery: EllaP
Stats: 229/144/139
WOE: HF/MP/VLC
Quote:
Originally Posted by mom2zeke View Post
Interesting! The fourth paragraph in the answer on that first link:

"After much toing and froing and research had been done it was eventually found that a protein intake of about 1.5 g/kg of lean body mass (LBM; note that researchers actually used Ideal Body Weight but this is a rough proxy for LBM) was necessary to spare LBM losses in a non-training obese individual consuming low calories."

I wonder if the "reference weight" that is referred to in the Living book is "ideal body weight" and is actually a rough measure of LBM? That may be where the confusion is coming from.
I bet you are right. I did read somewhere on another site where they referred to Reference Weight as "Ideal Weight". Although, the calculations using ideal weight LBM and entire ideal weight are quite different in protein amount for me personal, varying by 30 g. Regardless, I know I have to go very low on protein and carbs to lose, then will play with both numbers when I'm maintaining. Not concerned with total calories or fat grams at this point, as long as I'm satisfied and not hungry.

Last edited by EllaP; 12-02-2012 at 04:21 PM..
EllaP is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2012, 04:19 PM   #21
Major LCF Poster!
 
mom2zeke's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Seattle
Posts: 2,591
Gallery: mom2zeke
Stats: 257/144.8/150
WOE: Nutritional Ketosis--Maintenance!
Start Date: August 6, 2001
Quote:
Originally Posted by portcop01 View Post
Don't you think 91 grams protein is to high for losing weight?
Hi Becky,
I wish there was one right answer--it really varies from person to person! Some people can lose with a higher level of protein, while some people (like me) have to keep tight control on their protein in order to lose.

I know that you've been losing pretty well so far, what protein level has been working for you? Is there a reason you want to make a change? If you do want to try a higher level you can always give it a few weeks and then judge whether or not it's working for you over time.
mom2zeke is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2012, 04:19 PM   #22
Major LCF Poster!
 
portcop01's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: virginia
Posts: 1,279
Gallery: portcop01
Stats: 197-148-130
WOE: Lc
Start Date: July 15
Ok if I understand this my goal weight is 61 kg so that times 1.5 is 91 grams protein. I still think that's a lot
portcop01 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2012, 04:32 PM   #23
Major LCF Poster!
 
mom2zeke's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Seattle
Posts: 2,591
Gallery: mom2zeke
Stats: 257/144.8/150
WOE: Nutritional Ketosis--Maintenance!
Start Date: August 6, 2001
Quote:
Originally Posted by portcop01 View Post
Ok if I understand this my goal weight is 61 kg so that times 1.5 is 91 grams protein. I still think that's a lot
The discussion that Ella and I are having is about how to interpret the recommendations. It may be that the "reference weight" that is referred to by Dr. Phinney means something different than we think it does. If that's true then the recommendation may be lower than goal weight in 1.5Xgoal weight in kg. It may actually be closer to 1.5gXlean body mass in kg. This makes a big difference. I'm not 100% sure that this is true--just thinking out loud.

I think you should go with your gut and what's working for you so far.
mom2zeke is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2012, 05:52 PM   #24
Major LCF Poster!
 
mcjful's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Central TX
Posts: 2,116
Gallery: mcjful
Stats: 256/165/150
Start Date: Everyday
Maybe????

Reference Body Weight (RBW)


RBW is the midpoint of the healthy weight range in the 1995 Dietary Guidelines for Americans. Within the healthy range RBW can be adjusted upward for more highly muscled and downward for less muscled individuAL.
mcjful is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2012, 06:53 PM   #25
Very Gabby LCF Member!!!
 
JMCM1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 3,092
Gallery: JMCM1
WOE: EFGT wheat free (grain free)
Start Date: June 2012
Subbing. Appreciate all information!
JMCM1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-03-2012, 01:47 AM   #26
Senior LCF Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 309
Gallery: tablis
WOE: NK
Start Date: 10/29/2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by mom2zeke View Post
Is anyone else a bit confused about the difference in protein recommendations between the books and Dr. Phinney's podcast?

In the Living book they recommend 1.5-2g protein per kg of reference body weight. Strangely enough reference weight isn't the same thing as goal weight and I can't find a definition or chart of it in the book. And they also say that "No one has ever shown that more that 1.5gram/kg improves human protein synthesis...That said, however, generations of power athletes have made the empiric observation that they train and compete better on proportionally higher protein intakes (e.g., 1.5 to 2.5 grams per kg)."

But then in the Performance book they spell out multiple times that the range for protein should be .6 to 1 x lean body mass. Wouldn't the ranges for athletes be higher than the general public that the Living book is geared towards?

Then in Dr. Phinney's podcast with Jimmy Moore he continues to reference 1.5-2grams/kg from the Living book. He also refers to a protein chart that is in the NANY book which has ranges by height that don't seem to correspond (Jimmy has copied this is the notes for the podcast in case anyone is interested).

Any thoughts?
my thought is that since phinney and volleck don't seem to have a place where they interact with 'followers' perhaps the question can be directed to jimmy moore bc he seems to be very vigilant about answering questions and he would be able to make contact with p&v if he were unsure of the answer.
I would pose the question but I don't have the books yet and don't feel well versed yet. soon.
tablis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-03-2012, 05:51 AM   #27
Chatty Cathy
 
clackley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Ontario
Posts: 16,192
Gallery: clackley
Stats: 228.5/168/125
WOE: N.K.=vlc/hf/moderate protein & organic/pastured
Start Date: Restart Oct 18 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by tablis View Post
my thought is that since phinney and volleck don't seem to have a place where they interact with 'followers' perhaps the question can be directed to jimmy moore bc he seems to be very vigilant about answering questions and he would be able to make contact with p&v if he were unsure of the answer.
I would pose the question but I don't have the books yet and don't feel well versed yet. soon.
This point was quite confusing for me as well. It is one of those things that are likely quite individual but it would be nice to have some clarification from the experts and asking J. Moore is a great idea. He somehow came to his range of 60g to 90g and he has the ears of the experts.....
clackley is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-03-2012, 06:18 AM   #28
Senior LCF Member
 
NKSL55's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: USA
Posts: 173
Gallery: NKSL55
Stats: 205/185/175
WOE: General LC then NK
Start Date: Feb 2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by tablis View Post
my thought is that since phinney and volleck don't seem to have a place where they interact with 'followers' perhaps the question can be directed to jimmy moore bc he seems to be very vigilant about answering questions and he would be able to make contact with p&v if he were unsure of the answer.
I would pose the question but I don't have the books yet and don't feel well versed yet. :( soon.
Another venue would be Peter Attia's blog. He does not advertising, so I can link directly to the site.

He is an MD with close connections to both Phinney/Volek and Gary Taubes. He and Taubes are cofounders of NuSI.

He also responds to a large percentage of the questions posed in the comments sections of his blog posts. Sometimes takes him a couple of days, though.

Also, although he sometimes speculates, he is evidence-focused. So often he will say that the information just does not exist.

--
Phillip
NKSL55 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-03-2012, 06:22 AM   #29
Major LCF Poster!
 
mom2zeke's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Seattle
Posts: 2,591
Gallery: mom2zeke
Stats: 257/144.8/150
WOE: Nutritional Ketosis--Maintenance!
Start Date: August 6, 2001
I think that I'll try emailing Jimmy today. I know that he's been in Australia (is he still there?). While I don't know that there's a definitive answer, some clarification would be great!
mom2zeke is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-03-2012, 07:35 AM   #30
Senior LCF Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 309
Gallery: tablis
WOE: NK
Start Date: 10/29/2012
I don't know if he's back. All I know is that is LCDU page is so full of photos and videos that everytime i try to go there it jams my computer
tablis is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 05:08 AM.


Copyright ©1999-2014 Friends Forums LLC. All rights reserved. - Terms of Service | Privacy Policy
LowCarbFriends® is a registered mark of Friends Forums, LLC.