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Old 12-03-2012, 08:50 AM   #31
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I just sent a long email off to Jimmy. Hopefully he'll have some insight.

In the meanwhile I'll just keep doing what has worked for me so far to lose to goal and gain LBM: keeping protein in the lower half of the Performance range.
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Old 12-03-2012, 09:03 AM   #32
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it would be pretty cool if he answers you.... I'm just thinking about the possibilities
if he were accessible every time we have a question!
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Old 12-03-2012, 09:42 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by mom2zeke View Post
I just sent a long email off to Jimmy. Hopefully he'll have some insight.

In the meanwhile I'll just keep doing what has worked for me so far to lose to goal and gain LBM: keeping protein in the lower half of the Performance range.
I kinda sorta think he posted (maybe yesterday? Or I could have seen it "late") that it was his last night in Oz.

I'm very happy you emailed Jimmy. I bet he'll answer.

I believe I am just fine with my protein in the lower half of the Performance range. I am also one of the lucky ones who has a very decreased appetite in NK.

Kristn I didn't tell you, but back in the day (back in my late twenties - I am now 54) I was well over 225 pounds also. I lost nearly 100 pounds through diet pills and kept off most of it. I was 174, though, (menopause, thyroid *sigh*) which was a gain of about 20 pounds over the last 3 or 4 years.

So when I started NK in June, I was quite happy for the appetite suppression.
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Old 12-03-2012, 10:14 AM   #34
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OK - 2 hours ago Jimmy Moore posted:

"Just landed at LAX from Sydney. Customs time is next and hen we hit a plane for Atlanta, then Spartanburg. My bed is SO calling my name. "
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Old 12-03-2012, 05:22 PM   #35
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I don't know if he's back. All I know is that is LCDU page is so full of photos and videos that everytime i try to go there it jams my computer
OMG--this happens to me too!

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it would be pretty cool if he answers you.... I'm just thinking about the possibilities
if he were accessible every time we have a question!
I would love having access to the docs even more. Any time you go through an intermediary you risk getting their interpretation in the mix. I know that I have my own biases on this information and I'm trying to step back and be more rational.

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I kinda sorta think he posted (maybe yesterday? Or I could have seen it "late") that it was his last night in Oz.

I'm very happy you emailed Jimmy. I bet he'll answer.

I believe I am just fine with my protein in the lower half of the Performance range. I am also one of the lucky ones who has a very decreased appetite in NK.

Kristn I didn't tell you, but back in the day (back in my late twenties - I am now 54) I was well over 225 pounds also. I lost nearly 100 pounds through diet pills and kept off most of it. I was 174, though, (menopause, thyroid *sigh*) which was a gain of about 20 pounds over the last 3 or 4 years.

So when I started NK in June, I was quite happy for the appetite suppression.
Interesting Judy! I've done a lot of reading on people who live in a weight-reduced state. We're not metabolically the same as people who've never been fat. Congratulations on keeping your weight off for so long!! That's an amazing feat.

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OK - 2 hours ago Jimmy Moore posted:

"Just landed at LAX from Sydney. Customs time is next and hen we hit a plane for Atlanta, then Spartanburg. My bed is SO calling my name. "
It may take him a while to answer my question.
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Old 12-06-2012, 07:08 PM   #36
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I just got this from Jimmy:

"Hey Kristn, thanks so much for writing! I'll pass this along to Dr. Phinney to respond to this apparent discrepancy in protein recommendations. Great work you are doing on LCF and I'm happy that NK is working so well for you."

So hopefully we'll hear something from the good doctor soon!
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Old 12-06-2012, 07:19 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mom2zeke View Post
I just got this from Jimmy:

"Hey Kristn, thanks so much for writing! I'll pass this along to Dr. Phinney to respond to this apparent discrepancy in protein recommendations. Great work you are doing on LCF and I'm happy that NK is working so well for you."

So hopefully we'll hear something from the good doctor soon!
I'd really like to hear his answer as well, since I'd like to know what he considers the ideal protein range for me because the two sets of ranges are significantly different. Thanks for asking, Kristn.
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Old 12-06-2012, 07:27 PM   #38
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I just got this from Jimmy:

"Hey Kristn, thanks so much for writing! I'll pass this along to Dr. Phinney to respond to this apparent discrepancy in protein recommendations. Great work you are doing on LCF and I'm happy that NK is working so well for you."

So hopefully we'll hear something from the good doctor soon!
Oh this is exciting!

You can probably see in my signature I'm on the EFGT (Eat Fat Get Thin) from Barry Groves' book WOE. The people who started those threads say he would even occasionally stop by and share a word or two.

I can see how it should be interesting to the authors to see how people play it out in real life!
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Old 12-06-2012, 08:33 PM   #39
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I just got this from Jimmy:

"Hey Kristn, thanks so much for writing! I'll pass this along to Dr. Phinney to respond to this apparent discrepancy in protein recommendations. Great work you are doing on LCF and I'm happy that NK is working so well for you."

So hopefully we'll hear something from the good doctor soon!
How very fun!!!! Maybe he will stop by and visit....Maybe Phinney will too? Thanks for keeping us posted!
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Old 12-07-2012, 04:17 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by mom2zeke View Post
I just got this from Jimmy:

"Hey Kristn, thanks so much for writing! I'll pass this along to Dr. Phinney to respond to this apparent discrepancy in protein recommendations. Great work you are doing on LCF and I'm happy that NK is working so well for you."

So hopefully we'll hear something from the good doctor soon!
That's SO cool. Did he already know about the NK thread on LCF or you told him?
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Old 12-07-2012, 05:50 AM   #41
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That's SO cool. Did he already know about the NK thread on LCF or you told him?
He actually linked to my original NK thread in one of his earlier n=1 posts.
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Old 12-08-2012, 10:44 AM   #42
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He actually linked to my original NK thread in one of his earlier n=1 posts.
I thought so! But I couldn't remember where I'd found it can you direct me to the link? I think that's how I found you!
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Old 12-08-2012, 12:42 PM   #43
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I thought so! But I couldn't remember where I'd found it can you direct me to the link? I think that's how I found you!
You can google Jimmy Mooreís n=1 Experiments: Nutritional Ketosis Day 31-60. Not too far down in the post there is a list of links.
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Old 12-09-2012, 01:38 AM   #44
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Thanks!
My books came today!!
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Old 12-09-2012, 08:57 AM   #45
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Thanks!
My books came today!!
! I guess you have lots of reading to do!
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Old 12-10-2012, 11:09 AM   #46
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Ok So I started with the performance book which is a bit counterintuitive but it seemed like the right choice because this thread is active now- I will read the living one next.

Here are my thoughts/impressions and a few points of interest in no particular order:
1) I found it strange that there are recipes in the back of the book which call for honey and maple syrup when on page 58 it says specifically to avoid those thingsÖ
2) Regarding LBM confusion. Whenever he mentions LBM at least in this book it appears to be referring to current LBM and not the LBM of goal weight. Here is one particular quote which practically states it outright Page 66 ďÖ we recommend aiming for an intake of 0.6-1.0 grams per pound lean body mass If you donít know your body composition see page 95.Ē. He states several times that LBM is not a static thing and its best to get tested to know for sure. On that train of thought Iím thinking: heís established that the more LBM you have the more protein you can eat and the more resistance training you do the more LBM you acquire. Why then would someone like kristn who has been doing tons of resistance training and would have most probably increased LBM find that she needed to keep her protein strictly on the low end of LBM calculated from a static LBM estimate based on goal weight? (That is how you calculated it right kristn?)
3) On page 70 he says that 65-75% of calories should come from fat. Then he states ďAs you adjust your body weight and training intensity, your consumption of carbohydrates and protein will remain fairly stable despite changes in goals and activity levels, whereas how much fat you consume will be dictated by your energy demands, body weight and composition goals and satiety. If you want to lose weight the total amount of fat will be reduced. If weight loss is not a goal, your dietary fat needs to be maintained at a level that matches your energy expenditure, thus holding your body weight stable.
I might be wrong but this appears to say two things, 1) those of us who are trying to lose weight should be aiming toward 65% fat and 2) those of us who are maintaining should not be adding carbs to maintain but rather moving towards the higher end of the fat range. Iím not sure if thatís right but thatís what it seems to say. I had thought that those of us eating VVLC could move up from our weight loss level of carbs towards the 50 gm mark being very careful not to go out of NK.

Points of Interest:
1) On page 95 he writes that they do not encourage the use of MCT oils
2) On page 94 he mentions that food or supplements containing the amino acid alanine should be avoid because they decrease ketone production
3) He mentions Zinc as being an important supplement but not to take it at the same time as iron bc they cancel each other out. I donít recall anyone mentioning that on these forums. He speaks of zinc chloride vs gluconate.
4) He mentions having boullion or broth 30 min b4 WO
5) He addresses potassium but in the context of food intake. He does not speak of supplements as he does in the case of magnesium and zinc.
6) He seems to be ok with canola. I also heard him refer to canola in an interview on youtube, while on these forums Iíve understood canola is not recommended
7) on page 56 starts a breakdown of where carbs should be coming from in the diet. I thought it was interesting that no one has mentioned that on these forums. Maybe those of us that are looking to tweak our eating should try to follow these guidelines. However, Iím not sure how realistic it is for many of us bc its based on 50 gms of carbs while most of us are eating far less and he speaks of things like berries which seems so far off to me at this point.
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Old 12-10-2012, 11:25 AM   #47
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Another difference is the use of lean body mass vs. total weight. Lean body mass seems on the surface to be more accurate since LBM will require more protein than fat so it should be accounted for in the calculation. But I'm not sure if that's a correct assumption to make.

For me, the Performance range is 72-120 and the Living range is 102-136. That's 30 grams of protein difference on the lower end!
It shouldnt be such a big difference bc the perfomance book's calculation is based on lbs and the living one is on kgs. I should come out around the same.
Did you notice that it says lbs instead of kgs?
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Old 12-10-2012, 11:36 AM   #48
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Funny that he says to take zinc and iron apart, because sometimes we have iron deficiency because we are low on zinc (and copper). Funny that they need each other but they need to be apart.
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Old 12-10-2012, 11:45 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by tablis View Post
Ok So I started with the performance book which is a bit counterintuitive but it seemed like the right choice because this thread is active now- I will read the living one next.

Here are my thoughts/impressions and a few points of interest in no particular order:
1) I found it strange that there are recipes in the back of the book which call for honey and maple syrup when on page 58 it says specifically to avoid those thingsÖ
2) Regarding LBM confusion. Whenever he mentions LBM at least in this book it appears to be referring to current LBM and not the LBM of goal weight. Here is one particular quote which practically states it outright Page 66 ďÖ we recommend aiming for an intake of 0.6-1.0 grams per pound lean body mass If you donít know your body composition see page 95.Ē. He states several times that LBM is not a static thing and its best to get tested to know for sure. On that train of thought Iím thinking: heís established that the more LBM you have the more protein you can eat and the more resistance training you do the more LBM you acquire. Why then would someone like kristn who has been doing tons of resistance training and would have most probably increased LBM find that she needed to keep her protein strictly on the low end of LBM calculated from a static LBM estimate based on goal weight? (That is how you calculated it right kristn?)
3) On page 70 he says that 65-75% of calories should come from fat. Then he states ďAs you adjust your body weight and training intensity, your consumption of carbohydrates and protein will remain fairly stable despite changes in goals and activity levels, whereas how much fat you consume will be dictated by your energy demands, body weight and composition goals and satiety. If you want to lose weight the total amount of fat will be reduced. If weight loss is not a goal, your dietary fat needs to be maintained at a level that matches your energy expenditure, thus holding your body weight stable.
I might be wrong but this appears to say two things, 1) those of us who are trying to lose weight should be aiming toward 65% fat and 2) those of us who are maintaining should not be adding carbs to maintain but rather moving towards the higher end of the fat range. Iím not sure if thatís right but thatís what it seems to say. I had thought that those of us eating VVLC could move up from our weight loss level of carbs towards the 50 gm mark being very careful not to go out of NK.

Points of Interest:
1) On page 95 he writes that they do not encourage the use of MCT oils
2) On page 94 he mentions that food or supplements containing the amino acid alanine should be avoid because they decrease ketone production
3) He mentions Zinc as being an important supplement but not to take it at the same time as iron bc they cancel each other out. I donít recall anyone mentioning that on these forums. He speaks of zinc chloride vs gluconate.
4) He mentions having boullion or broth 30 min b4 WO
5) He addresses potassium but in the context of food intake. He does not speak of supplements as he does in the case of magnesium and zinc.
6) He seems to be ok with canola. I also heard him refer to canola in an interview on youtube, while on these forums Iíve understood canola is not recommended
7) on page 56 starts a breakdown of where carbs should be coming from in the diet. I thought it was interesting that no one has mentioned that on these forums. Maybe those of us that are looking to tweak our eating should try to follow these guidelines. However, Iím not sure how realistic it is for many of us bc its based on 50 gms of carbs while most of us are eating far less and he speaks of things like berries which seems so far off to me at this point.
Now that you've done all this work....and thank you for all this.... what kinds of carbs do they recommend? I've definitely had a small serving of berries covered in HWC and a little vanilla DaVinci's syrup without it affecting me.
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Old 12-10-2012, 11:47 AM   #50
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Funny that he says to take zinc and iron apart, because sometimes we have iron deficiency because we are low on zinc (and copper). Funny that they need each other but they need to be apart.
I may need to be corrected, but I think zinc won't be absorbed unless on an empty stomach.

Which reminds me, I recently had a blood test where I was low in iron!
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Old 12-10-2012, 12:01 PM   #51
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I may need to be corrected, but I think zinc won't be absorbed unless on an empty stomach.

Which reminds me, I recently had a blood test where I was low in iron!
quote from the book:
"...taking lots of iron for months at a time blocks absorption of zinc even if there is plenty of zinc in your diet."
they recommend alternating one month iron one month zinc.

judy why'd you switch WOE? how's it going over there?
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Old 12-10-2012, 12:04 PM   #52
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Now that you've done all this work....and thank you for all this.... what kinds of carbs do they recommend? I've definitely had a small serving of berries covered in HWC and a little vanilla DaVinci's syrup without it affecting me.
they recommend the same stuff as we see talked about here.
he also mentions up to 100 grmas of berry fruits per day.
I tried adding berries when i was doing atkins and they messed me up.
even just a tiny bit in smoothie with almond butter.
too bad I love berries
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Old 12-10-2012, 12:16 PM   #53
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It shouldnt be such a big difference bc the perfomance book's calculation is based on lbs and the living one is on kgs. I should come out around the same.
Did you notice that it says lbs instead of kgs?
The difference is that one calculation is based on LBM and the other is based on reference (goal?) weight.

goal weight (150)/2.2*1.5=102
LBM (120)*.6=72

The Living book refers to "reference weight" when doing the calculation, but everyone seems to do it on goal weight--not exactly sure what reference weight is, it's one of the questions that I've posed to Dr. Phinney through Jimmy Moore. There is no reference to LBM in the calculation in the Living book.

I agree, if the Living calculation is actually based on LBM then it's much closer (82 vs 72).
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Old 12-10-2012, 12:37 PM   #54
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The difference is that one calculation is based on LBM and the other is based on reference (goal?) weight.

goal weight (150)/2.2*1.5=102
LBM (120)*.6=72

The Living book refers to "reference weight" when doing the calculation, but everyone seems to do it on goal weight--not exactly sure what reference weight is, it's one of the questions that I've posed to Dr. Phinney through Jimmy Moore. There is no reference to LBM in the calculation in the Living book.

I agree, if the Living calculation is actually based on LBM then it's much closer (82 vs 72).
oh now I see what you mean. Can't wait to get the answer.
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Old 12-10-2012, 12:52 PM   #55
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quote from the book:
"...taking lots of iron for months at a time blocks absorption of zinc even if there is plenty of zinc in your diet."
they recommend alternating one month iron one month zinc.

judy why'd you switch WOE? how's it going over there?

I actually didn't switch. This is where I started out and was successful, but when Kristn started her thread I started being a lot more precise about how many grams of protein I was getting - was already LC.

Barry Groves wrote years ago about eating lower protein amounts and low carb. I was just imprecise about how much. It was fascinating to watch Kristn be so precise and see her get to goal. A great ride!

I am about 8 pounds from my goal. It might be not be anybody else's goal, but I'll get happy at 145 or so. I've got some thyroid issues I'm getting handled, and I don't think I'm motivated to be so precise until after Christmas. I'm at my lowest low and having no troubles at all, so I'm just reading and reading and reading - thanks for all the info you posted!
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Old 12-10-2012, 04:50 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by tablis View Post
2) Regarding LBM confusion. Whenever he mentions LBM at least in this book it appears to be referring to current LBM and not the LBM of goal weight. Here is one particular quote which practically states it outright Page 66 ďÖ we recommend aiming for an intake of 0.6-1.0 grams per pound lean body mass If you donít know your body composition see page 95.Ē. He states several times that LBM is not a static thing and its best to get tested to know for sure. On that train of thought Iím thinking: heís established that the more LBM you have the more protein you can eat and the more resistance training you do the more LBM you acquire. Why then would someone like kristn who has been doing tons of resistance training and would have most probably increased LBM find that she needed to keep her protein strictly on the low end of LBM calculated from a static LBM estimate based on goal weight? (That is how you calculated it right kristn?)
tablis--thank you for this great write-up!

When we was first figuring this out in the original NK thread I believe that Rebecca made the point that we should use goal LBM for figuring out our protein. Her reasoning (I believe--I am going from memory) was that whether we needed to gain or lose LBM the amount we should be eating for was our goal, not where we are right now. Some larger people will actually lose LBM to get to goal because the structural LBM is no longer needed when you're smaller. Others will need to gain LBM to get to goal. It all depends on where you start from. I felt that this was sound logic and since I'm a big fan of starting with the goal in mind this appealed to me. I am open to the idea that this reasoning could be misguided.

Regarding why a person like me (resistance training and gaining LBM) might need to keep their protein relatively low I don't know, but I have a few guesses:
1. Natural variation--some people just need less protein than others to maintain or even increase LBM.
2. Gluconeogenesis in long-term low-carbers. I think that if you've been LC as long as I have without controlling protein your body may be a super-converter of protein to glucose requiring a much tighter control of protein intake.
3. Hormones. I'm sure they affect all of this but does anyone really understand how?

Quote:
3) On page 70 he says that 65-75% of calories should come from fat. Then he states ďAs you adjust your body weight and training intensity, your consumption of carbohydrates and protein will remain fairly stable despite changes in goals and activity levels, whereas how much fat you consume will be dictated by your energy demands, body weight and composition goals and satiety. If you want to lose weight the total amount of fat will be reduced. If weight loss is not a goal, your dietary fat needs to be maintained at a level that matches your energy expenditure, thus holding your body weight stable.
I might be wrong but this appears to say two things, 1) those of us who are trying to lose weight should be aiming toward 65% fat and 2) those of us who are maintaining should not be adding carbs to maintain but rather moving towards the higher end of the fat range. Iím not sure if thatís right but thatís what it seems to say. I had thought that those of us eating VVLC could move up from our weight loss level of carbs towards the 50 gm mark being very careful not to go out of NK.
I think that the possibility of increasing carbs (and other macros) does exist in maintenance (helped by the meter). I know that they recommend increasing fat only, but if you can stay in ketosis and increase carbs then why not? I haven't tried it myself because even a bit too much protein seems to kick me out of ketosis.

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Points of Interest:
7) on page 56 starts a breakdown of where carbs should be coming from in the diet. I thought it was interesting that no one has mentioned that on these forums. Maybe those of us that are looking to tweak our eating should try to follow these guidelines. However, Iím not sure how realistic it is for many of us bc its based on 50 gms of carbs while most of us are eating far less and he speaks of things like berries which seems so far off to me at this point.
Interesting! I think that everyone is just trying to hold their carbs down that we've overlooked this. So much emphasis is on quality of fat that we tend to not think too much about where carbs should come from.
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Old 12-10-2012, 06:15 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by mom2zeke View Post
tablis--thank you for this great write-up!

Interesting! I think that everyone is just trying to hold their carbs down that we've overlooked this. So much emphasis is on quality of fat that we tend to not think too much about where carbs should come from.
From non-starchy vegetables? (Said the person who didn't read the book... )
From a few low-glycemic fruits?
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Old 12-10-2012, 06:16 PM   #58
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tablis--thank you for this great write-up!

When we was first figuring this out in the original NK thread I believe that Rebecca made the point that we should use goal LBM for figuring out our protein. Her reasoning (I believe--I am going from memory) was that whether we needed to gain or lose LBM the amount we should be eating for was our goal, not where we are right now. Some larger people will actually lose LBM to get to goal because the structural LBM is no longer needed when you're smaller. Others will need to gain LBM to get to goal. It all depends on where you start from. I felt that this was sound logic and since I'm a big fan of starting with the goal in mind this appealed to me. I am open to the idea that this reasoning could be misguided.
I have your same memory without the ability to articulate it later...
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Old 12-10-2012, 06:34 PM   #59
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It seems to me that most long term low carbers have a pretty good handle on their carbs in terms of quantity and quality. It may be that it is a `non issue`for those of us that fall into that category. And it appears that many who are doing n.k. are long term low carbers.....

Last edited by clackley; 12-10-2012 at 06:37 PM..
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Old 12-11-2012, 07:20 AM   #60
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Regarding why a person like me (resistance training and gaining LBM) might need to keep their protein relatively low I don't know, but I have a few guesses:
1. Natural variation--some people just need less protein than others to maintain or even increase LBM.
2. Gluconeogenesis in long-term low-carbers. I think that if you've been LC as long as I have without controlling protein your body may be a super-converter of protein to glucose requiring a much tighter control of protein intake.
3. Hormones. I'm sure they affect all of this but does anyone really understand how?
My hunch (hypothesis?) is that while P&V made great strides in this area there is still at least one missing piece of the puzzle-aside from gluconeogenesis- that would solve the problem of long term lo-carbers.
I mean they didn't really write these books for "us" but it turns out that most of us including JM are long term lo-carbers trying to unstall. So I'm thinking that aside from all those keto-adaptation phenomenae that P&V have observed so far - there are some other permanent or at least longer term physiological / hormonal changes that happen in the body of a long term lo-carber which makes it stop working.
It would be nice if they would study some of us for their next book - besides JM - and it would be nice if it happened fast! (perhaps some material for your next contact with JM?)
One thing I wonder about is whether regenerated LBM has the same properties as the "original LBM". Meaning for those of us who have lost weight in the past without knowing about protecting LBM and lost some and then perhaps regained some... does the new LBM use up the same amount of fuel at rest as the original?Does the new LBM that is attached to the old stuff alter its functin in some way? (as examples) That sort of thing makes a big difference. etc.
Whatever it is that messes it up only seems to be activated by reintroducing carbs. Those that stay on seem to be able to maintain for a very long time (at least the ppl I know -myself included) its only if carbs get out of ctrl and the weight is regained does something change which makes it not work again. I'm not sure how it went for JM? Did he go off or did he gain his weight back while lo-carbing.

Last edited by tablis; 12-11-2012 at 07:26 AM..
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