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Old 12-23-2012, 11:03 AM   #1141
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Originally Posted by reddarin View Post
From the Paleo Hacks site:

"You'll never find someone as hostile to Ancestral Eating as Lyle McDonald. He even trolls pro-Paleo dieters on Facebook and other social media for some sort of kick"



I love this Lyle guy! I'm browsing his body recomposition site now.

This book, though, is 15 years out of date with no new editions? Subsequent related books are $90 bucks on Amazon wow lol. The keto book is $50 plus s&h from his site directly. Looks like all of his stuff is substantially less expensive if you get it directly from him.

He is a bodybuilder? He must be unique in the entire world to be hostile to the Paleo way of eating lol.

What does he say about protein requirements from the Ketogenic book?
I bought the book, but did not get around to reading it. Read a few chapters now. Paper books are a hassle!

Someone else mentioned a free pdf. google "the ketogenic diet" pdf to find it. Near as I can tell it contains the entire book.

Probably needless to say that for an out of print book like this, there is zero money making it back to Lyle MacDonald either way. Personally, I would rather pay for the kindle edition. But it does not exist!

Hey, I found a link to an article in an open source journal here. Says you can reverse diabetic neuropathy with a ketogenic diet. If you are a mouse.

--
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Old 12-23-2012, 11:11 AM   #1142
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Testing.

Tried to post something a bit ago and got a message saying the message was waiting for moderation?!

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Old 12-23-2012, 11:45 AM   #1143
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Well yesterday was my first cheat in 4 mo..my h made his home cookies boy they were great..but today I'm right back on track..I thought I would have a sugar hang over but did not felt pretty good..
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Old 12-23-2012, 12:17 PM   #1144
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What does he say about protein requirements from the Ketogenic book?
The requirements are different for the first three weeks of a ketogenic diet than for after three weeks. During the first three weeks of a ketogenic diet, while people are getting keto-adapted, the book recommends consuming at least 150 grams of protein per day (depending on body weight). This is supposed to provide your body with sufficient protein for gluconeogenesis, so that your brain will have sufficient fuel while it is transitioning from burning glucose to burning fat for energy. After about three weeks, your body is better at burning fat for fuel and your protein requirements decrease. After three weeks, for people who are not exercising, the book recommends protein at the rate of 1.75 grams per kilogram of lean body mass (or roughly .8 grams per pound of body weight). For people who are exercising, the book recommends different protein levels depending on the type of exercise performed (strength or endurance). A ballpark for people who are exercising is .9 grams per pound of bodyweight.

Although the book is older than Phinney and Volek's, it has a lot of useful information and does not seem to be inconsistent with other more recent books and articles that I have read about ketogenic diets. It gives a lot of detailed information about the diet, and I have found it extremely helpful.

As an aside, you mentioned his other books. He has another book, Rapid Fat Loss, which is essentially a short term, high protein, low fat ketogenic diet. He recommends that people do not exercise while doing that. I thought I read somewhere that he is not currently advocating a ketogenic diet, and his more recent books promote other plans.
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Old 12-23-2012, 12:52 PM   #1145
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Interesting.

Phinney directly said that .8/kg was too little protein for a LC woe [which was interesting because he used the word LC rather than NK]. I'm inclined to think that proper protein level is something that has been refined in the 15 years since LM wrote his book.

Is that Rapid one high protein low fat??? Did Stillman take his idea and modify it?

Except for the odd induction protein level, his recommendations for protein intake are surprisingly low. Even lower than the Optimal Diet level, no?

Does he promote net carbs or total carbs and what level does he set? I saw from the blurb on Amazon that he advocates use of carbs for workout energy, is that right?
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Old 12-23-2012, 12:54 PM   #1146
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Well yesterday was my first cheat in 4 mo..my h made his home cookies boy they were great..but today I'm right back on track..I thought I would have a sugar hang over but did not felt pretty good..
heh that was brave to even risk eating them with the carb-sick posts from the last week or two

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Old 12-23-2012, 01:00 PM   #1147
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I bought the book, but did not get around to reading it. Read a few chapters now. Paper books are a hassle!

Someone else mentioned a free pdf. google "the ketogenic diet" pdf to find it. Near as I can tell it contains the entire book.

Probably needless to say that for an out of print book like this, there is zero money making it back to Lyle MacDonald either way. Personally, I would rather pay for the kindle edition. But it does not exist!

Hey, I found a link to an article in an open source journal here. Says you can reverse diabetic neuropathy with a ketogenic diet. If you are a mouse.

--
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There is a 2 star (I think) review on Amazon that convinced me not to bother trying to get it or read it.

McDonald disagrees about the profit potential lol he has it for sale on his site for $50 or so. Looks like he created his own publishing company to keep his books in print.

I have found the e-book format to be perfect for casual or pleasure reading but awful for something I really want to read closely. In fact, I had bought several Kindle books, Phinney's A&S Living included, before I discovered that huge for me problem.
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Old 12-23-2012, 01:23 PM   #1148
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Interesting.

Phinney directly said that .8/kg was too little protein for a LC woe [which was interesting because he used the word LC rather than NK]. I'm inclined to think that proper protein level is something that has been refined in the 15 years since LM wrote his book.

Is that Rapid one high protein low fat??? Did Stillman take his idea and modify it?

Except for the odd induction protein level, his recommendations for protein intake are surprisingly low. Even lower than the Optimal Diet level, no?

Does he promote net carbs or total carbs and what level does he set? I saw from the blurb on Amazon that he advocates use of carbs for workout energy, is that right?

Sorry, but I don't know how to post my response under each question, so I will just list them.

The Ketogenic Diet Book does not recommend .8 grams per kilogram of bodyweight. It recommends .8 grams of protein per pound of bodyweight if sedentary, and .9 grams per pound (roughly) if exercising.

I don't know anything about Stillman so I can't answer that. I guess it would be better to say that the Rapid Fat Loss book is higher protein; "high" protein means different things to different people.

No, the protein requirement is not excessively low. It is based on .8 grams of protein per pound of bodyweight (for sedentary) and .9 grams per pound (for exercising). I agree that it would be low if based on kilograms and not pounds.

Like Phinney and Volek, he says that we don't have the enzymes required to digest fiber, so it need not be counted in computing total carb intake. He does not make a big deal out that. It is just 3 sentences out of the book.
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Old 12-23-2012, 01:32 PM   #1149
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Like Phinney and Volek, he says that we don't have the enzymes required to digest fiber, so it need not be counted in computing total carb intake. He does not make a big deal out that. It is just 3 sentences out of the book.
Oops - I should have turned the page before hitting "submit reply". It is more than 3 sentences about fiber. He has 2 short paragraphs on it. But, the message is the same - no need to count fiber in daily carb totals.
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Old 12-23-2012, 01:32 PM   #1150
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There is a 2 star (I think) review on Amazon that convinced me not to bother trying to get it or read it.
It looks useful to me because of the references and background info. But I like diving into the primary literature. That is an acquired taste for most, however.
Quote:
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McDonald disagrees about the profit potential lol he has it for sale on his site for $50 or so. Looks like he created his own publishing company to keep his books in print.
Ah, I had not looked at his site. That is right. Oh well, I did buy a copy of the book. I'll buy it on the kindle if he offers it there.
Quote:
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I have found the e-book format to be perfect for casual or pleasure reading but awful for something I really want to read closely. In fact, I had bought several Kindle books, Phinney's A&S Living included, before I discovered that huge for me problem.
Yes, possibly. Maybe the kindle app on the iPad? Seems to have some powerful highlighting and note making capabilities. But it would involve a fair amount of training to get used to them.

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Old 12-23-2012, 01:34 PM   #1151
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By the way, I thought I was going to just submit one post and then go back to lurking obscurity. It has not worked out that way, so, it is nice to meet all of you and thanks for sharing your experiences on this (and other) threads.
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Old 12-23-2012, 01:36 PM   #1152
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Also, I noticed a mistake already in the MacDonald book -- he mistakenly uses "mmol/dl" instead of "mmol/l" in at least one table. This results in his figures being 10x too high. That is in the .pdf. Guess I could see if it is in the paperback and, if so, leave a comment on his web site.

Might be more work than I am up for, though.

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Old 12-23-2012, 01:39 PM   #1153
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By the way, I thought I was going to just submit one post and then go back to lurking obscurity. It has not worked out that way, so, it is nice to meet all of you and thanks for sharing your experiences on this (and other) threads.
Welcome SFGirl! I would use one of those crazy animated emoticons, but a terrible accident early in my use of the internet has rendered unable to do so.

Is the "SF" "SanFrancisco", "Science Fiction", or some other abbreviation.

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Old 12-23-2012, 01:48 PM   #1154
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Welcome SFGirl! I would use one of those crazy animated emoticons, but a terrible accident early in my use of the internet has rendered unable to do so.

Is the "SF" "SanFrancisco", "Science Fiction", or some other abbreviation.

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Thank you, Phillip! Sorry about the emoticon accident! I will try to avoid such perils!

SF is for "sugar free" - something I strive to be, though not always successfully!!
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Old 12-23-2012, 02:30 PM   #1155
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Wow, I need to pop in here more frequently! I see I missed a few very interesting conversations.
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Old 12-23-2012, 03:13 PM   #1156
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I just wanted to stop in and say hi to my friends
I'm really sorry for not posting lately, but "life" has hit pretty hard and i'm doing my best to stay positive! I have eaten some Christmas goodies but have maintained my weight. Hah I told myself NO goodies this year and I have failed! It's weird cause I only want them late at night, I'm blaming TOM!
I noticed this morning that my tummy looked better than ever before so I took a pic. I postd it on the Meat & Egg fast thread. I'm so happy that although I haven't continued to lose weight, I have continued to lose inches so I'm very pleased.

My goal tonight is to catch up on this thread and read how all of you have been doing. I probably won't respond to all the posts caust that would take a LONG time haha, but I do want to catch up with you guys!

I hope all of you are enjoying the holidays. I'm off to do my last minute shopping This should be interesting
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Old 12-23-2012, 04:00 PM   #1157
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The Ketogenic Diet Book does not recommend .8 grams per kilogram of bodyweight. It recommends .8 grams of protein per pound of bodyweight if sedentary, and .9 grams per pound (roughly) if exercising.
I must let that percolate.

-------

Phinney and Volek only refer to net carbs when they authored the Atkins book as far as I know. The Living book (and the Performance book I think) use total carbs. I mean, the Net Carbs thing is practically trademarked by Atkins Inc so anyone penning one of their books will have to toe that line.

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Old 12-23-2012, 04:02 PM   #1158
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lol sci-fi was my guess too
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Old 12-23-2012, 04:03 PM   #1159
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By the way, I thought I was going to just submit one post and then go back to lurking obscurity. It has not worked out that way, so, it is nice to meet all of you and thanks for sharing your experiences on this (and other) threads.
Hiya SFG! nice ta meet ya
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Old 12-23-2012, 05:10 PM   #1160
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It looks useful to me because of the references and background info. But I like diving into the primary literature. That is an acquired taste for most, however.
Phillip, go read that review before you buy his book. The reviewer gave some examples of the problems she identified with the book. So you'll be able to tell right off if your familiar enough with what McDonald is describing to work through the parts that are disconnected/disjointed.

If you google 'mcdonald ketogenic diet amazon' it should be the first hit. Then look for the two star review titled "'Potentially good information, but you'll have to work for it, March 11, 2010" By Joanne of Joanneunleashed.

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Yes, possibly. Maybe the kindle app on the iPad? Seems to have some powerful highlighting and note making capabilities. But it would involve a fair amount of training to get used to them.
I dunno. As a device the pads leave a lot to be desired for in depth study and note taking. Thanks to DRM stupidity you cannot copy and paste text from the material. Although that certainly mirrors the reality of a physical book I disfavor poking myself in the eye in the name of realism. Taking notes is tedious at best without an add-on keyboard for speedy touch typing.

Having two monitors and using the PC e-reader software is probably about the best of a bad situation. Hmmm. Actually I could set up two monitors.

Of course, those drawbacks wouldn't stop me from using a pad if there were other compelling reasons. Having to lug around a lot of material for example.

What bugs me about Kindle, in particular, is its stark lack of usability. I mean, the dang thing has a flat file system!!! There is no companion PC software to organize your e-collection!!! Whiskey Tango Foxtrot. And the ability to carry around massive amounts of books/documents/pdfs is a constant selling feature. Sheesh.

I was hot on rooting my Kindle but I couldn't find any rooted solution that addressed the horrible file system. In fact, I didn't see any particular benefit to having it rooted other than avoiding that outrageous crap Amazon pulled by forcefully removing a particular book from all Kindles without permission.

Apple products are nifty and there is a lot to admire about them but it is unlikely that I will ever buy or own one. We are shackled with Windows because of Apple's incredibly stupid licensing model. In my opinion.

Last edited by reddarin; 12-23-2012 at 05:18 PM..
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Old 12-23-2012, 05:17 PM   #1161
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Hi Oceana

Keep strong!

Congrats on the inches and belly success!

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Old 12-23-2012, 07:42 PM   #1162
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Was that Ludlum that wrote The Brotherhood of the Rose?
No, I don't think so... My favorite series was The Bourne three books, then he has numerous other thrillers. They are generally international CIA, murder, blow things up, etc. The man could write to detail that you really thought you had been in these wonderful cities.
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Old 12-23-2012, 08:07 PM   #1163
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Phillip, go read that review before you buy his book. The reviewer gave some examples of the problems she identified with the book. So you'll be able to tell right off if your familiar enough with what McDonald is describing to work through the parts that are disconnected/disjointed.

If you google 'mcdonald ketogenic diet amazon' it should be the first hit. Then look for the two star review titled "'Potentially good information, but you'll have to work for it, March 11, 2010" By Joanne of Joanneunleashed.
I did already buy it. Just had not gotten around to reading any of it until today. The first chapter seemed pretty good to me. Lucid.

I found that review. It almost felt like she wanted every sentence to explain a paragraph's worth of information. But perhaps the book is not well organized. I have a Ph.D. in biology, so I might not be the best person to tell you whether it is a good place to start learning about ketosis, etc.

I got the kindle out of laziness. I never bothered to root it or do anything with it other than read and purchase more books. Nearly every time there was a new model of Kindle I would buy it. Then I got the Kindle fire and could buy some comic books. But this made me want an iPad, so I would have access to a wider variety of comic books.

All the down-sides you describe are counterbalanced for me by my not needing to store books and comic books. Most people seem to consider that a negative -- they don't have a physical copy of the work, only a license to view a digital copy. But for me that is a big plus. They are all there, I can even search them (although I almost never do.)

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Old 12-23-2012, 08:23 PM   #1164
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Hello everyone! I certainly hope I am done with the grocery, what a mad-house today!
Darin, I love old Clancy more, The Hunt was most excellent! A few of his new books I have had trouble getting involved....just assumed it was me wishing Ludlum was still with us and writing! I would start one of his books and stay up all night reading it. Makes for an exceptionally long day, but wow! Dean Kootz is great; and Patterson is another favorite too.
Blonde, I agree, The Stand is likely in my top 10 favorites of all times! What a fantastic read....time to find it again. Any of Robert Ludlum's are great. Many are series, so be careful to start at the first one.
Hi Unna, you are correct with aged cheeses...I have no allergic response to those, but I can be miserable sick with soft cheeses at times.
Hi MerryKate! Good to hear from you! I think that's a good plan, we have eased up a bit, staying LC for the most part...will get back on plan after Christmastime. Love your pic!
Hi Raven!
Deborah you are too funny! Wait - weren't you way under goal!?
Buffy, seems like you have not been well for a while now....hummmm. I hope its not pneumonia, that is surely painful and feels like a boulder dropped down on you! Take it easy, your body must be tired and needs rest to get well. Whining is permitted here! While we were driving today, I was thinking about the thread, and it came to mind that maybe your whoosh was due to lowering your fat??? Have you been at the same % when you were paying attention to it? I could not find HWC while travelling this weekend, had to use that Half n Half!
Hi Dazy, give us an update on your little angel with the heart transplant!
Hi Cici! Hope you are doing okay in that very cold weather!
Hi Shelley! It is quite the zoo around here, I'll enjoy it for about a week....then I need my peace.
Oh Cheryl, you like my pickles too!! Mt Olive is my favorite.
Hi Dot! Great idea on the wrap with pickles!
drjlo, I haven't read the P/V, likely won't either...but for me personally, when I increased my calories, with protein/fat...I started losing. Too low for me doesn't work; I think my body is programmed now to be on high alert for that trick. I follow several clinicians on LC, NK, some vary, but most are in favor of higher calories.
Hi Mobear! Hope you are doing ok?
Hi Tina, welcome! I weigh on Sundays if I am in town or feel like it...didn't today!
Hi Phillip, hi glad you popped back in.
Hi SFGirl99, welcome!
Hi Becky, one treat here and there at Christmas seems okay to me too! I am waiting on Carrot Cake...no wheat in it, but it will still be grand.
Good to hear from you Oceana, been wondering how you were feeling? Take it easy on yourself, you have done great.
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Old 12-24-2012, 06:22 AM   #1165
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Thank you so much for telling me to do this. I downloaded the app yesterday, then downloaded a 99 cent book from Amazon for Kindle, solved my problem of not being able to read in bed as Mr. Buffy always complained about my reading lamp bothering him. I started out by looking at the free or cheap books to make sure I liked reading off my Ipad, I love it. You have opened a new world to me, LOL. I forget what all I can do with my Ipad. I did win a Kindle once but after getting my Ipad I gave it to one of my DD's.

I have a friend who has devoured all the Clancy and Ludlow books.


i LOVE the kindle for ipad. i just got the ipad mini in November...my mom bought my 1 gen ipad. before you know it you'll be carrying around a 20+ book library in your purse! just love it!
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Old 12-24-2012, 06:49 AM   #1166
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No, I don't think so... My favorite series was The Bourne three books, then he has numerous other thrillers. They are generally international CIA, murder, blow things up, etc. The man could write to detail that you really thought you had been in these wonderful cities.
Ah, it was David Morrell. Seems like my Dad had read the book when it came out and gave it to me to read after the movie came out. I will have to reread that one. It is a trilogy but I never read the other two. He also wrote First Blood which became Rambo - I didn't know that.

Isn't that the most annoying thing in the frigging world?!? No attribution or hidden attribution that is downplayed or ignored. These days I'll usually just assume there is a book behind the movie and google for it.

I was very disappointed to find out that the movie The Book of Eli was not based on a novel What an awesome movie!
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Old 12-24-2012, 06:55 AM   #1167
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The iPad is integrated with iTunes, isn't it? So you can organize your e-books? Is it like that on the iPad too?

Yes, I'd put money on it. Apple actually puts some thought into the user experience.

Amazon, I am shaking my fist at you.
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Old 12-24-2012, 07:03 AM   #1168
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The iPad is integrated with iTunes, isn't it? So you can organize your e-books? Is it like that on the iPad too?

Yes, I'd put money on it. Apple actually puts some thought into the user experience.

Amazon, I am shaking my fist at you.
GM Darin! After all this book talk, I am going to get the Kindle app on Ipad now. I need to use the Ipad more, and it has everything I need to be mobile, and adding the books will be even better! Kindle and I have never quite loved each other...especially at the beach. I called the company last summer to hammer them for the LED inability to adjust to higher light, after they advertised it would be great for the beach. Well, if you are under a towel, with an umbrella, with sunglasses, if the wind doesn't blow, you may read a page or two! It was good at NIGHT on the beach. Now I am going to find my Robert Ludlum Bourne series, as DD1 got all interested when I was talking about this tonight! The movie is on today on demand, which I do applaud them for the movies, they are accurate to the book, however, Matt Damon is not my picture of Jason Bourne! Had to adjust to him. Off to sit in peace on the porch, finish coffee and enjoy the quiet of the morning....until all paws get up! ct
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Old 12-24-2012, 09:11 AM   #1169
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Just wanted to wish ALL a Very Merry Christmas Eve, I'm off to serve food for most of the day (no not at a soup kitchen) at Olive Garden where soup and salad are king and pasta rules the bellies of the many. Bread sticks abound and I shall not touch, not even one.
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Old 12-24-2012, 12:09 PM   #1170
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Checking in with you all this Christmas Eve. Have loved the discussions on our thread the past couple of days. I loved the Bourne movies. And, am loving the kindle app for my Ipad although I just have the one book d/loaded so far.

Weight remaining at 185.4 so I am sure I will make my New Year's goal for 185. Hoping to slip below that but I know this magical whoosh I have been on is going to halt at some point and I will go through the bouncing stage for a while to let my body adjust.

Please let me know as soon as they come out with the ketogenic diet for dummies book. You brainiacs are making me , although I do pick up and learn from each and every post.

SG, you asked if I thought that I had lowered my fat intake as to why the increased weight loss. I don't really think so, but am not logging so hard to tell, but, I start every day with coffee and 2-3 T of CO, depending on how much coffee I drink. Lunch is some kind of meat that is usually fatty or with added butter if it isn't. Snacks have been the diet root beer float with as much HWC as I desire, then dinner more meat. Diet has been pretty plain jane as I just haven't had time to cook much. But, I am full and satisfied each day, it is just a little boring. I will be glad to have more time after the New Year to get back to some more cooking. I "HOPE" it is the result of my body becoming keto adapted at burning fat but I don't know how a person knows that? I am just very happy with my scale these days and the growing pile of clothing that I am bagging up for charity. It is great to think that come spring and summer, my closets might be half way empty again and I "have" to buy some new, smaller clothing.

Wishing everyone a very Merry Christmas, Happy Holiday in whatever way or wherever you plan to spend it.
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