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Old 12-08-2012, 07:16 AM   #631
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Originally Posted by reddarin View Post
I never deny the other health benefits of exercise

I heartily decry the knee-jerk mainstream nutrition zombie dogma that demands it for weight loss
Totally agree with you! How's coming back to NK working? Still worried about your BP, but only Mama's have the right to nag a lot!
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Old 12-08-2012, 07:22 AM   #632
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Morning all, down .2 from yesterday, 123.6. Too many calories, too many nuts, too much wine...

Food has just not been appealing the last two days. Meh. The only foods I've been able to eat without retching at the thought of it has been sausage and nuts. Still getting in more than enough calories with the nuts though. Have a good day, everyone.
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Old 12-08-2012, 07:47 AM   #633
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Old 12-08-2012, 07:56 AM   #634
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The Gardisil one pushed me into high gear to make certain my DDs did not fall prey to their GYNs...very dangerous one.
Glad you mentioned that one. I had one Dr get mad at me cause I didn't let my girls get the Gardisil shot. So now I tell them that the youngest had acute pancreatitis at age 7 and since tha is a risk factor of Gardisil they will not be getting the shot. That has shut them up since then. Even the health dept has contacted me to tell me my kids were due their gardisil shot. 2 of the people that have tried to get me to get it for them said they gave it to their sons. I didn't drink the kool aid.

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Old 12-08-2012, 07:56 AM   #635
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Think I might've figured out the cause of my feeling so ill lately.. I think I'm taking too much magnesium! Been taken between 1000-1500mg magnesium oxide every day for the past week or two. Will back down to 500 and see if I start feeling better!
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Old 12-08-2012, 08:01 AM   #636
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Not sure if 99 is your min or max on protein? But it sounds like it's on the high end. A lot of us over 40 females have found we have to eat at the low range...lots of Phinney's calculations were for athletic males (at least that's my guess! ) I'm 5'2 and stick to 45-60 most days for protein - if I was more active or bigger I'd raise it some.

Also on calories...you don't want to starve yourself BUT if you aren't losing, there's no reason you can't cut your calories with less fat, especially as it looks like you are having trouble eating that many calories.

Just some thoughts.
OK -- When Red ran my numbers, the 'exercise page' was three numbers, 79, 99 and 119. He said to use the Phinney number of 99. Should I use 79 instead? Maybe today I should use that...what do you think, Red.
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Old 12-08-2012, 08:05 AM   #637
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If you feel like you are forcing yourself to eat then don't eat. But do eat your protein to protect your LBM.

If your appetite forces your calories very low (down to the 1200 to 1300 range maybe depending on your height and ideal weight) then you need to try to get some more calories in - protein first, then fat.

The 2 pounds is almost has to be water weight. Otherwise you were over eating by 1000 calories a day all week long to have gained 2 pounds. Pretty unlikely.

Count total carbs. Don't torpedo your efforts with net carbs and NK.

And remember that once you become keto-adapted, once you are fully switched over to efficient fat fuel burning, well, after that it is simply a matter of finding the right macro combination and calorie level - small easy tweaks. Even if you really did gain a little bit getting there. And don't forget that your gain may reflect regained LBM depending on your protein consumption history.

Haven't been counting net carbs -- too much of a pain to worry about. Even after my coffee induced weight loss, scales are the same. Guess I need to play around with it -- another poster said maybe 99 protein is too high. What do you think? You ran numbers 79, 99 and 119.
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Old 12-08-2012, 08:08 AM   #638
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Hi Arlene, that darn scale ruins another day! Don't let it have power over you. Even 20 somethings may need to give the body time to adjust. I had to back off coffee, add protein to help.
I hear you. Maybe I should throw it out the back door!!!
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Old 12-08-2012, 08:24 AM   #639
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Think I might've figured out the cause of my feeling so ill lately.. I think I'm taking too much magnesium! Been taken between 1000-1500mg magnesium oxide every day for the past week or two. Will back down to 500 and see if I start feeling better!
Oh yes, that can do it. Wow, that was a lot you were taking, I think most of us try to work up to a maxiumum of 800 and not the oxide, that is the one that causes the bathroom issues (unless that was what you were needing) and isn't absorbed as well. The ones that end in "ate" are more easily absorbed. I tried to move up too quickly and am not sure, but I wasn't feeling well and it did help to quit the mag for a week or so, then I started back on it and increased it slowly working up to 800.
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Old 12-08-2012, 08:32 AM   #640
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Morning everyone. Happy to report another new low on the scale this AM. 190.4, I can see those 180's over yonder, here I come...
Since I only lost 2 lbs in November, kind of hoping this isn't my total loss for December, I will get to worrying if it goes too long before I see another drop. Now, I know I am in for a while of the bouncing ball weight that we see while our bodies adjust to the new low.

If you are just starting NK, try not to get too stressed over hitting exact macros. Basic is that you figure out your range of protein and shoot for hitting somewhere in that range, probably best to be at the lower number to mid, rather than the highest number. Keep your carbs to 20 or below, although you might find out later that you are one of the lucky ones that can eat more carbs and still lose. Then, eat fat to fill you up. If you haven't been lowcarbing, you will see a quick whoosh of water weight leaving, but, if you have been LC already, it might not show you much of a loss at first. Don't worry about calories at first except not letting them get too low and that is anything below 1200, eat until you feel satisified but not stuffed. Don't try tweaking this and that too often, give your body time to get and stay in solid ketosis.
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Old 12-08-2012, 08:36 AM   #641
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Morning everyone. Happy to report another new low on the scale this AM. 190.4, I can see those 180's over yonder, here I come...
Since I only lost 2 lbs in November, kind of hoping this isn't my total loss for December, I will get to worrying if it goes too long before I see another drop. Now, I know I am in for a while of the bouncing ball weight that we see while our bodies adjust to the new low.

If you are just starting NK, try not to get too stressed over hitting exact macros. Basic is that you figure out your range of protein and shoot for hitting somewhere in that range, probably best to be at the lower number to mid, rather than the highest number. Keep your carbs to 20 or below, although you might find out later that you are one of the lucky ones that can eat more carbs and still lose. Then, eat fat to fill you up. If you haven't been lowcarbing, you will see a quick whoosh of water weight leaving, but, if you have been LC already, it might not show you much of a loss at first. Don't worry about calories at first except not letting them get too low and that is anything below 1200, eat until you feel satisified but not stuffed. Don't try tweaking this and that too often, give your body time to get and stay in solid ketosis.
Congrats Buffy!!
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Old 12-08-2012, 08:37 AM   #642
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Thanks Cheryl, I am pretty excited!!!
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Old 12-08-2012, 08:51 AM   #643
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Thank you Buffy. I keep quiting and coming back, because I get scared I am putting on fat. But I know this is the healthy way to eat. But I feel heavy when I eat this way. Is that normal? I love to read the posts on here and it keeps me coming back. But somehow I have got to work through that I am not putting fat on. I try my jeans on everymorning and measure and drive my husband crazy. Asking do I look fatter this morning. I just really need help. I am not going to give up. Thanks for listening.
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Old 12-08-2012, 08:53 AM   #644
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Buffy, you are just moving right along. Gongratulations!
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Old 12-08-2012, 09:04 AM   #645
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Way to go, Buffy!
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Old 12-08-2012, 09:09 AM   #646
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Thank you Buffy. I keep quiting and coming back, because I get scared I am putting on fat. But I know this is the healthy way to eat. But I feel heavy when I eat this way. Is that normal? I love to read the posts on here and it keeps me coming back. But somehow I have got to work through that I am not putting fat on. I try my jeans on everymorning and measure and drive my husband crazy. Asking do I look fatter this morning. I just really need help. I am not going to give up. Thanks for listening.
Linda, that is interesting because I feel just the opposite, when I eat carbs I feel fat and I actually get puffy, b/c I retain water so much worse. Now, that being said, as I progress further into this, I am finding a pattern. I seem to lose easily during about 1 week out of the month, the rest of the time I just bounce up and down a lb or 2. That can be very frustrating to someone starting out and or wanting a quicker loss of weight. Heck, I would love a quicker loss. At my ripe old age, I seem to still have a few female hormones at work because if I pay close attention, I definitely have a monthly cycle of my hormones tormenting my body. I get very faint symptoms of pms and it is on a regular monthly schedule, was hitting on the full moon each month , now it is just after. During that week my clothes feel tighter, the waistband on my jeans feels tight and I feel FAT. The scale at that point usually has been sitting at the same weight, plus or minus a lb for 2-3 weeks. I get a little depressed b/c of the hormones, like in pms, call it the "fat, ugly, got no friends" time of the month and then, I will have a day of two of lots of trips to the bathroom and voila! A new loss. That is the pattern I see developing for me on NK. But, since I am willing to be patient, wow, I am now almost 20 lbs thinner than I was.

The fat phobia is a real one, especially as a lot of you were raisted while our dear government promoted the low fat craze that made America fat. I am old enough to remember life as it were , before that craze and at a time when most people were not overweight. I remember as a child if someone was a little overweight, people would say, they should quit eating bread, cakes, cookies and pie. But, heck, we ate cream, butter, whole milk, everything that was not low fat. My DD's struggle a little with feeling guilty at eating high fat as well.

I haven't had my LBM tested but accoring to my tanita scale, which measures BF, although not very accurately, I have gone done about 4% in BF since I started this in Sept. and I eat probably close to 80% fat daily.

Do you feel fat on a daily basis or just during certain times of the month? Here is what I suggest. Just commit to doing it by the book for 2 full weeks. Then if you are happy, do it for 2 more weeks. That is what I did and by then I had no intention or desire to quit. Good luck
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Old 12-08-2012, 09:10 AM   #647
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Thanks you guys, you and this thread are so important to help me keep going
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Old 12-08-2012, 09:39 AM   #648
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Thanks again Buffy. I will try again. I also read on another forum about salt. That is another thing I try not to eat. Just found out should be eating it. My head is always in a fog. I really though I was smart about dieting, won't think that anymore. I will try and be patient. Might as well been at same weight 160 for 2 months. Trying other ways of eating and nothing is working. And I do love this way the best. Just get in a hurry to lose. Thanks again.
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Old 12-08-2012, 09:43 AM   #649
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Oh no, I've certainly been guilty of carb creep over the years, usually lots of nuts, too much cheese, or too many veggies. I'm gluten intolerant, so grains aren't ever a temptation. When I gain a few lbs, I usually catch it with a couple days of a meat or fat fast. When I got to 46, that stopped working as well.
Hmmm. That might mean that you will regain LBM while losing water weight.

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The protein range seems so broad in the Phinney calculator, but I'm guessing the best approach is to try different options--60, 75, even 90 grams/day.
Yeah. I am gonna clean up the protein recommendations part of the Intro in next months thread for sure if I don't do it sooner. You really need to read the Performance book if you are going to use the Performance formula because it requires you to be cognizant of your Body Fat % goal at the very minimum. And there is a lot more to that than just a quick google search for a recommended BF% in my opinion. The result is that you may short yourself on protein and it is the keystone for NK.

And Phinney said directly that .8/kg is too low for LC but the Optimal formula results in .9 on the low end. Phinney is also pretty clear about 1.5-2.0 being the range for a well formulated LC/NK woe not withstanding the fine tuning that athletic individuals might engage in vis-a-vis the Performance book and its specialized formula.

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My main concern is that I've played games with my metabolism over the years by eating very low calories to drop a few pounds now and again. The past few weeks I've been averaging 1200 calories a day, which is too low. I'm tired of being hungry, but I'm worried about gaining again. Coconut oil doesn't make me gain, so I'll add that back in for the fat and the calories.
It is likely that you will see a gain after eating such low calories just because you'll be regaining lost LBM. You have very little weight to lose so it probably won't be offset with fat losses. Anyway, prepare yourself for that if it happens.

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Old 12-08-2012, 09:47 AM   #650
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Totally agree with you! How's coming back to NK working? Still worried about your BP, but only Mama's have the right to nag a lot!
I am getting back on track. I'm not sure if I am keto-adapted again but I am pretty sure I've lost the regained water weight.

BP seems to be trending downwards.
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Old 12-08-2012, 09:51 AM   #651
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2 of the people that have tried to get me to get it for them said they gave it to their sons.


Did they mention the statins their kids take?
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Old 12-08-2012, 10:14 AM   #652
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Think I might've figured out the cause of my feeling so ill lately.. I think I'm taking too much magnesium! Been taken between 1000-1500mg magnesium oxide every day for the past week or two. Will back down to 500 and see if I start feeling better!
Google 'magnesium jimmy moore robbins' for a podcast that Jimmy Moore did with Dr. Robbins. The doc loves magnesium. The RDA is about 400mg. Robbins recommends 2x the RDA.
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Old 12-08-2012, 10:29 AM   #653
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Haven't been counting net carbs -- too much of a pain to worry about. Even after my coffee induced weight loss, scales are the same. Guess I need to play around with it -- another poster said maybe 99 protein is too high. What do you think? You ran numbers 79, 99 and 119.
Thanks
Arlene
Some scales, particularly WW scales apparently, are designed to ignore 'small' variations in weight from day to day. To reset it you have to change what it thinks your current weight is by several(?) pounds. You can do that by setting something on the scale or tricking it some other way.

No ma'am. I'd eat 99g protein, keep carbs low to very low and reduced calories a little at a time by way of reducing fat grams a little at a time till you get some positive feedback. But I'd take it slowly.

The ideal for protein is to eat the right amount. You can determine that two ways. Eat possibly higher than you should and come down to the right level or start off eating too little and never know it until you've shed a lot of LBM. That is why I think that starting at 1.5g/kg is the right path. Perhaps that is too much for you individually. Perhaps not. If it is too much then you can always adjust down when your body doesn't respond. If it isn't too much then you've spared your lean tissue and inexplicable future weight gains when your protein intake increases later and you gain back lost LBM.

Or that is my thinking on it anyways.

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Old 12-08-2012, 10:31 AM   #654
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Thanks Cheryl, I am pretty excited!!!
You should be!!! Congrats!!!
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Old 12-08-2012, 10:39 AM   #655
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Thanks for asking (and thanks to ALL for the supportive comments the last month or two). I am slowly improving. My need to overeat carbs seems to have gone. Have had weird hormonal things happening too that may have been at the root of some of all this (40+ day cycle, then 10 day cycle, crazy right? I'm 43 and understand these things will happen more and more often).

Right now I'm at 138...10 pounds more than a couple months ago, which is about in line with how quickly I gain when I use carbs for a fuel source occasionally.
Paula, Great to see you again!

Quote:
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Think I might've figured out the cause of my feeling so ill lately.. I think I'm taking too much magnesium! Been taken between 1000-1500mg magnesium oxide every day for the past week or two. Will back down to 500 and see if I start feeling better!
That's great news! Hope it's the culpret, sure sounds like.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Buffy45 View Post
Morning everyone. Happy to report another new low on the scale this AM. 190.4, I can see those 180's over yonder, here I come...
Since I only lost 2 lbs in November, kind of hoping this isn't my total loss for December, I will get to worrying if it goes too long before I see another drop. Now, I know I am in for a while of the bouncing ball weight that we see while our bodies adjust to the new low.

If you are just starting NK, try not to get too stressed over hitting exact macros. Basic is that you figure out your range of protein and shoot for hitting somewhere in that range, probably best to be at the lower number to mid, rather than the highest number. Keep your carbs to 20 or below, although you might find out later that you are one of the lucky ones that can eat more carbs and still lose. Then, eat fat to fill you up. If you haven't been lowcarbing, you will see a quick whoosh of water weight leaving, but, if you have been LC already, it might not show you much of a loss at first. Don't worry about calories at first except not letting them get too low and that is anything below 1200, eat until you feel satisified but not stuffed. Don't try tweaking this and that too often, give your body time to get and stay in solid ketosis.
Congrads Buffy!

Quote:
Originally Posted by reddarin View Post
I am getting back on track. I'm not sure if I am keto-adapted again but I am pretty sure I've lost the regained water weight.

BP seems to be trending downwards.
WTG Red!

I'm down a full pound today, not sure exactly why but I'll take it. I just figure it's a fluctuation on the positive side for a change. Puts me below last weeks low
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Old 12-08-2012, 10:47 AM   #656
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I'm down a full pound today,
Hooray!!! Congrats Terri!!!
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Old 12-08-2012, 11:28 AM   #657
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Those numbers look really good to me. I busted my stall at 205 with very similar macros.
Thanks Major Red!!! The results were as follows:

Weight? Up 2# from yesterday
Ketones. Down to .3 from .6 from yesterday
Fasting B/G, up 106 from 92 yesterday.

Pretty frustrating.

I'm truly about to give up on this as I just can't seem to even get down and stay at my starting weight from late August! I'm over all the time. Ketones aren't even in "the zone". I said I would give it the 6 months that Skaldeman (?) said some people need, and the personal trainer said she thought I was doing fine and had good macros (80% fat), but needed to up my carbs (usually single digits) to having veggies at at least one meal as that wouldn't even raise them to 30/day and still be about 4-6%....I overdid it yesterday with 7% though and 27.7 total Phooey. Just so darned frustrating to see everyone losing weight and inches, and then I'm going the wrong way with the scale and tape measurer...week after week, month after month.

I have lots of ketone strips (ordered a bunch when they were 10% off and ordered 5 boxes to get the free S&H), so I'll keep going for 6 months. I'm 3.5 months in. So far.....nothing "good" to report on my end.
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Old 12-08-2012, 11:39 AM   #658
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Oh Shelley , I am so sorry that it has been such an uphill battle for you. Life ain't fair!

Concentrate on working with your new trainer, who sounds perfect and see where that takes you. 3 1/2 months is a long time to devote to a program where you aren't seeing results and I can't believe you have stuck it out this far. I'm afraid I wouldn't have.

I really am looking forward to more research and more being written about NK, I think we are on the tip of something but feel like there is a lot more to be learned about it and we need more information to confirm that we are doing it right.

I feel very lucky that it is working for me, but, I wonder if it would if I weren't taking the 2 diabetic meds that I take? I won't know unless I would try to get off those meds right now and I am not willing to do that this early in the game and with the scale moving downward and my BG numbers so great. Maybe later on I will experiment a little with that.

Whatever route you take, I hope you stay in touch!
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Old 12-08-2012, 11:58 AM   #659
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Start Date: restart March '10
Quote:
Originally Posted by reddarin View Post
The ideal for protein is to eat the right amount. You can determine that two ways. Eat possibly higher than you should and come down to the right level or start off eating too little and never know it until you've shed a lot of LBM. That is why I think that starting at 1.5g/kg is the right path. Perhaps that is too much for you individually. Perhaps not. If it is too much then you can always adjust down when your body doesn't respond. If it isn't too much then you've spared your lean tissue and inexplicable future weight gains when your protein intake increases later and you gain back lost LBM.
I just think Phinney's #s are very high. She has already had a week of no response, so adjusting downward might be a good idea. Most of us ladies have lost on quite a bit less than 1.5. I eat around 1-1.1 per kilogram total weight. If you mean of LBM that's different. For us ladies usually significantly.

Not disagreeing really, just throwing out some thoughts. Us weight loss resistant girls often have to tweek.

I even tried the low end of Rosedale's recommendations once...didn't love it but also did not lose any LBM going down to 40-45 grams per day.
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Paula
2010 Atkins 204/191.6 HCG/hHCG 191.6/176/165.4/156.4/147.8 (4 rounds)
2011 hHCG 148.6/140.8/134.8/129.2 (3 rounds) JUDDD 125.6 (sept-dec)
2012 lowish Optimal calories, June25th 132.6/124.6/110
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Old 12-08-2012, 12:37 PM   #660
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That's good to know Paula in regards to your level of protein on Rosedale's rec. I often have trouble getting my protein numbers high enough just because of my lack of appetite. Like this morning, I fixed 4 strips of thick bacon, I usually just eat 3 but there was one left so I cooked it. Nope, too much, the cat got 1 strip. And, since I usually just eat twice a day, then that just leaves dinner to get the rest of my protein in. Wish there were an easier way to get accurate BF results at home.

We are all about wanting to home test for every thing, now aren't we?
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