High Fat NK 80/15/5 - December Version

[reddarin]

Originally Posted by Blonde with a Rose

Yay! I've been so excited to check in...

Hello Everybody!

Down 1.6 today. My weight has not budged for weeks and weeks. I didn't hit my numbers yesterday. Came in low in fat and calories. Went like this:

Protein: 92.5 (92)
Fat g 57 (198)
Calories 1227 (1800+ floor)

Today I got a head start by adding butter and HWC to my 1st cup of coffee and HWC and VCO to my 2nd.

I slept well, no hip pain. That started to get better with no wheat, almost gone at night now.

Funny, right in the middle of posting this my laptop shut down (low bat). Obstacles have thrown themselves in my way this morning, keeping me from this thread. HAH! I'm in.

Thanks Red, you DO rock!!

Congrats!!!

[reddarin]

Originally Posted by Blonde with a Rose

Obstacles have thrown themselves in my way this morning, keeping me from this thread. HAH! I'm in.

lol!! You must have been tapping your toe wildly waiting for me to get December's thread up and running

[reddarin]

Originally Posted by shelley

Major Red...would you mind if I printed her off a copy of all that you wrote above? I can just "tell her" to read the books, but you have written a manuscript worthy of publication in my opinion and I think she would greatly enjoy reading it.

Go right ahead

[TerriMM]

Thank you reddarin!! That's pretty much what I came up with using your charts, so I feel pretty good about "Getting" this. And true, I don't feel like I have a lot to lose, I think converting flab to muscle will be my main focus. Your comment has validated that too, thanks.

I'm on my way!!

Thank you all for the warm welcome.

[reddarin]

Thanks for the compliments on the December Intro Post ya'll. I appreciate it!

Boy howdy! I thought I'd just do a few tweaks and create the new thread but I ended up rewriting at least half of it.

I changed all of the links to other threads to the new URLs for our new forum and I decided to move the frame size, blue lava lamp and calorie posts to this month's thread.

[reddarin]

Originally Posted by mom2zeke

Hi fat burners! I'm just popping in here to let you all know that I'm thinking about not continuing the original NK thread for December. Because of that I feel the need to clarify this attribution to the NK thread.

This equation actually comes from Chapter 7, Protein in the Phinney/Volek book, The Art and Science of Low Carb Performance. I understand that it contradicts some of what Dr. Phinney has said in earlier books and interviews, but it isn't something that we made up over in NK--it actually comes from the latest book by these guys. I encourage everyone to read this book--this is the book that Jimmy Moore used as his blueprint for his NK experiment also.

I would also suggest that using 18% as the default body fat percentage for women, especially middle aged women, is a bit misleading. Most women's goal body fat% will fall in the 20-30% range.

Actually, Phinney contradicts what he said in that latest book in later interviews/podcast. The long term stalls podcast was done well after the book came out.

Perhaps Volek and Phinney mildly disagree on the optimal formula?

At any rate, I phrased it to be as generic as possible and I linked to the thread so any interested person could find out for themselves - that thread is packed with good information.

I agree on the body fat thing. I don't use ya'lls formula so I never have paid much attention to that part of it. But I'll tweak the Intro for January and on so it is clear that 18% is just an example.

[reddarin]

Originally Posted by shelley

I upped my protein and calories and have started losing on the scale.

Hooray!!!

[reddarin]

It is probably worth pointing out that the Performance book Phinney and Volek wrote is geared specifically towards athletes. Hence the 'Performance' part of the title.

Phinney or Volek one said that they specifically wrote the book for that demographic because they got so many requests from that demographic.

I think that means that if you are not a performance athlete then the Performance book, while interesting and informative, probably does not apply to most of us. It isn't a matter of being the latest and greatest information - it is targeted to a particular group of people.

[Buffy45]

I happen to like the idea of combining both threads. Although there are some differences, I find myself going back and forth and sometimes reposting the same thing on both threads. Kristn, would certainly want you to chime in here often and offer your help and advice and while Red is still on his journey, he could continue to try to corral us all on this end. JMHO

[reddarin]

There are some pretty stark, and fundamental, contrasts between the approaches to NK the two mega-threads take.

Sadly, I don't think combining the two threads would work very well.

I mean, the other NK folks are certainly welcome here but I have no desire to argue about how this thread is pursuing NK. I do not want to get into a back and forth every time I suggest increasing calories, for example. Or that lots of fat is the best approach. Or that macro ratios are a very important aspect of NK. Or, even, what formula is best for calculating protein grams.

I've been involved in threads like that, where every little thing is blown up and bickered over and it is awful.

One of the reasons we have so much fun on our thread is that that stuff is almost completely absent.

[JanetHeleMae]

Red, could you help one more old lady in distress? I would feel more comfortable with this plan if I could actually have a plan! I cannot figure out how much of what I should be eating. I use fit day and diligently track everything. Please help me get the right figures for me.
I am 69 YO
162.5 #'s goal weight of 135
5'4"
quite seditary
Thank you so much

[dazygyrl]

Originally Posted by TerriMM

Hi everyone,
I’ve been lurking for a while and really appreciate all your information, insights and encouraging posts. I tried this a couple weeks ago with a little success, though admittedly short term. I’m ready for a longer term commitment. I would appreciate if you could run my numbers for me reddarin just to verify I’m on the right track.
Current weight – 135.9
Goal weight – 122
Height – 5’1-1/2”
Exercise – Light to Moderate
Wrist – 6-1/2”

Thanks in advance!
Terri

my buddy!!

[dazygyrl]

(repost from my last post in the nov thread)

reddarin...why is it fiber is not subtracted when counting carbs? i can't get past that. it's engrained in my pea brain to subtract them.

i was down .6 this morning. still .4 above my low. but moving down.(still waiting for tom too). today i am going to push my cal level up closer to the top of my cal limit for my goal weight (goal wt kg*.35) i had been sticking to the lower end (goal wt kg*.30).

[reddarin]

Originally Posted by JanetHeleMae

Red, could you help one more old lady in distress? I would feel more comfortable with this plan if I could actually have a plan! I cannot figure out how much of what I should be eating. I use fit day and diligently track everything. Please help me get the right figures for me.
I am 69 YO
162.5 #'s goal weight of 135
5'4"
quite seditary
Thank you so much

I sure will Janet. Can you tell me your wrist measurement for your frame size?

[reddarin]

Originally Posted by dazygyrl

(repost from my last post in the nov thread)

reddarin...why is it fiber is not subtracted when counting carbs? i can't get past that. it's engrained in my pea brain to subtract them.

i was down .6 this morning. still .4 above my low. but moving down.(still waiting for tom too). today i am going to push my cal level up closer to the top of my cal limit for my goal weight (goal wt kg*.35) i had been sticking to the lower end (goal wt kg*.30).

Sounds good on the calories

For fiber, I think the post I made to the other thread is pretty much what you are asking about so I'll just quote myself here:

Originally Posted by reddarin

I think that the Total Carbs for NK concerns the way the body responds to the whole carb not the carb minus the fiber or whatever.

Phinney, I think, said that once you get above 50g of carbs you start entering the area where your kidneys begin retaining water.

The Net Carbs where fiber and/or sugar alcohols are subtracted are more about the glycemic load and blood sugar. I guess that the pathway that controls kidney response is different and that means that other affects from total carbs are felt without regard to GI and BS impact.

...and I'll add to it a bit because your question is a tad different from the other one to which I was responding.

Nutritional Ketosis is distinct from the Atkins approach and, perhaps, LC in general. I think Phinney is promoting a steady state of ketosis and I do not think that 'normal' LC ensures this steady state. From what Phinney has said about the trigger for water retention that seems like a reasonable conclusion.

While net carbs may be fine for typical LC I think they suppress ketone production if total/gross carbs are too high even if the resulting net carbs are low.

[JanetHeleMae]

Thanks red, my wrist is 6 3/4'

[reddarin]

Originally Posted by JanetHeleMae

Red, could you help one more old lady in distress? I would feel more comfortable with this plan if I could actually have a plan! I cannot figure out how much of what I should be eating. I use fit day and diligently track everything. Please help me get the right figures for me.
I am 69 YO
162.5 #'s goal weight of 135
5'4"
quite seditary
Thank you so much

Your goal weight is the very bottom of your ideal range for your height and frame size. No problem there, you know what is best for you. But since you'll be in your range of ideal weight fairly quickly you might have a little bit of a challenge getting to the bottom end of it. I only point that out so you aren't disappointed if you are a big fast loser.

Here ya go...

Goal Weight: 135

Exercise Page:
(x/2.2)*0.8 = 49
(x/2.2)*1.2 = 74
(x/2.2)*1.5 = 92
(x/2.2)*1.8 = 110

Dr. Phinney's recommendation is 1.5g/kg that results in 92g protein daily.

For a goal weight of 135 the calorie goal would be : 2148 (35kCal/kg) with a floor of 1841 (30kCal/kg - for an obese and/or very sedentary person).

Calories: 2148

Protein grams: 92 (368 ~ calories)
Fat grams: 198 (1782 ~ calories)
Carb grams: ??

[JanetHeleMae]

Thank you so very much! Now I have a plan! I am surprised at the amount of calories. I guess it is the brain equating the word "diet" with a reduction in calories! I can see that I am not eating enough calories, gosh darn, I'll just have to fix that!

Your explanations are excellent and it makes perfect sense to me.

[Blonde with a Rose]

Originally Posted by reddarin

lol!! You must have been tapping your toe wildly waiting for me to get December's thread up and running

Are you kidding? Ever seen a 57 year old SPAZ???

[Clueless]

Red The Demember thread is wonderful!

My weight this am was 160.5 so I am still hanging around the same 3 lbs.

Glad your feeling better Becky.
Been alot going on around here. This is when you really get put to the test on an eating plan. Stress and life changes creep in and ya have to keep a positive additude and stay determined. Thanks for this thread cause it helps me. I felt those little doubts start to creep in, like LC is not what you need, and fruit won't hurt you.
My chest has been hurting today and I think oh I am eating too much fat and thats my arteries clogging
I know it is silly but thats when I would fall off plan.
At least I can come here for support.

[Blonde with a Rose]

Originally Posted by reddarin

There are some pretty stark, and fundamental, contrasts between the approaches to NK the two mega-threads take.

Sadly, I don't think combining the two threads would work very well.

I mean, the other NK folks are certainly welcome here but I have no desire to argue about how this thread is pursuing NK. I do not want to get into a back and forth every time I suggest increasing calories, for example. Or that lots of fat is the best approach. Or that macro ratios are a very important aspect of NK. Or, even, what formula is best for calculating protein grams.

I've been involved in threads like that, where every little thing is blown up and bickered over and it is awful.

One of the reasons we have so much fun on our thread is that that stuff is almost completely absent.

I'm new to NK and not familiar with the other thread but I have seen threads implode for the bickering and disagreement. I hope things here stay the same, light and fun and informative without too much drama.

[NKSL55]

Originally Posted by mom2zeke

Hi fat burners! I'm just popping in here to let you all know that I'm thinking about not continuing the original NK thread for December. Because of that I feel the need to clarify this attribution to the NK thread.

I think many of us consider you and reddarin benevolent leaders of adjacent principalities in this forum. So what ever you guys want is fine with me.

I guess the only question is where would you post your periodic query about everyone's recent results from this WOE?

I just adjusted my current/goal weight because over the last week I have gained about 6 pounds. I was stable at 175 for more than 1 month. I have been in ketosis >99% of the time.

But -- I am pretty sure that it is mainly the result of muscle hypertrophy from power lifting. That is I don't see any additional fat around my waist but the muscles of my upper body look larger. That is why I also adjusted my goal weight.

--
Phillip

[dazygyrl]

thank you, darin....once again, i appreciate your input. so total carbs can still be 50 g/day?

[reddarin]

Originally Posted by dazygyrl

thank you, darin....once again, i appreciate your input. so total carbs can still be 50 g/day?

Well. That is the ceiling that Phinney put in place but whether or not any particular person can lose weight or maintain weight at that level of total carbs is very much an individual body thing.

For sure Phinney said directly that some people would have to have substantially less carbs to attain NK.

So you'd have to give it a whirl, be very patient, and see how it works out for you.

[Buffy45]

Originally Posted by reddarin

There are some pretty stark, and fundamental, contrasts between the approaches to NK the two mega-threads take.

Sadly, I don't think combining the two threads would work very well.

I mean, the other NK folks are certainly welcome here but I have no desire to argue about how this thread is pursuing NK. I do not want to get into a back and forth every time I suggest increasing calories, for example. Or that lots of fat is the best approach. Or that macro ratios are a very important aspect of NK. Or, even, what formula is best for calculating protein grams.

I've been involved in threads like that, where every little thing is blown up and bickered over and it is awful.

One of the reasons we have so much fun on our thread is that that stuff is almost completely absent.

I am good either way, and I see your point on the differences, we don't want to ruin the easy going banering we have here.

[mom2zeke]

Originally Posted by NKSL55

I think many of us consider you and reddarin benevolent leaders of adjacent principalities in this forum. So what ever you guys want is fine with me.

I guess the only question is where would you post your periodic query about everyone's recent results from this WOE?

I just adjusted my current/goal weight because over the last week I have gained about 6 pounds. I was stable at 175 for more than 1 month. I have been in ketosis >99% of the time.

But -- I am pretty sure that it is mainly the result of muscle hypertrophy from power lifting. That is I don't see any additional fat around my waist but the muscles of my upper body look larger. That is why I also adjusted my goal weight.

--
Phillip

Phillip--I plan to post in the main space of the forum--not sure about the check-in. In the meantime you may be interested in this thread: Nutritional Ketosis and Resistance Training

I'm not really interested in being a leader of a principality. I started the NK thread in July as a support for myself and others who might be trying this new WOE to discuss what we were doing and learning. Since I reached my goal in August I've enjoyed the interaction and helping people who are new to NK. But I don't really like the long meandering thread format and I think that it's hard to keep up and find specific information if you're looking for it. Posting in specific topic threads in the forum seems like a better way to go.

I'm happy to give up my monthly "chat" thread to avoid confusion. And don't worry Red, I don't intend to come back to this thread to give my opinion.

[reddarin]

Originally Posted by mom2zeke

I'm happy to give up my monthly "chat" thread to avoid confusion.

Is there actually a lot of confusion?

Originally Posted by mom2zeke

And don't worry Red, I don't intend to come back to this thread

Alrighty

[theLossgirl]

Thanks for starting up the December thread, Red. Looks great as always! You have no idea how checking in here helps us all very much to stay on track.

[dazygyrl]

Originally Posted by reddarin

Well. That is the ceiling that Phinney put in place but whether or not any particular person can lose weight or maintain weight at that level of total carbs is very much an individual body thing.

For sure Phinney said directly that some people would have to have substantially less carbs to attain NK.

So you'd have to give it a whirl, be very patient, and see how it works out for you.

thanks!

[reddarin]

Originally Posted by theLossgirl

Thanks for starting up the December thread, Red. Looks great as always! You have no idea how checking in here helps us all very much to stay on track.

Hey stranger! How are you doing?!? Are you pigging out as per our previous discussion??? And thank you