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Old 12-23-2012, 04:25 AM   #331
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Received my new package of ketone strips yesterday and had to do a test to celebrate (ha ha), even though it was nearly noon and my meal at 10am included a little coconut oil. No workout yet, though. It was still very motivating to see 1.8!

Then, first thing this morning the reading was 1.9! Since my intake was questionable yesterday evening (restaurant) I was worried my carbs might have been higher than they should have been, even though I ate strictly "on plan."

However, my weight is still steady at 144. We'll see what happens by the end of next week after I've recovered a few days from all the Body Beast workouts...
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Old 12-23-2012, 04:38 AM   #332
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Originally Posted by mom2zeke View Post
Lindsay--

I can't wait to hear how the XTrain workouts go. A few days off with or without yoga sounds smart.

What great gifts from your DH! Do you have plans to visit France anytime soon? I am terrible with languages, but my oldest son seems to want to learn them all. He took Spanish in HS, is taking German in college, and picked up some Czech over the last semester. I barely made it out of HS Spanish.
I'm looking forward to it because I've missed doing yoga... the easy, slow, relaxing kind that is more of a stretch than anything else. I've certainly not been getting much stretching in with my recent workouts.

No, I will probably never go to France or anywhere in Europe, although I would love to before I die! I just love the language and enjoy learning it for the challenge and fulfillment in itself. So much of my interest in language comes from music and wanting to better understand what I'm listening to or singing. You would think the logical thing would be to focus on Italian (hello, mother language of opera!), but it just doesn't appeal to me as much.

Does your son do a lot of traveling or plan to have a career that would benefit from him being multi-lingual? Spanish is very practical nowadays, but unfortunately that's another one that doesn't appeal to me! I took it in HS because it was the only foreign language option, and occasionally it comes in handy at Mexican restaurants.
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Old 12-23-2012, 06:27 AM   #333
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something that i can't understand...is if the goal is to burn my body fat, and i have a lot of it...why am i increasing my dietary fat so much..it seems like any energy would just come from that..not what i have stored...logically of course.

Phinney says if you follow the range of protein intake that they define based on height... and keep carbs down and eat enough healthy fats that you're satiated..the more you reduce fat calories IN (to a degree) the more effective your weight loss will be

Last edited by Myles; 12-23-2012 at 07:23 AM..
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Old 12-23-2012, 08:17 AM   #334
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Lindsay, you are the ketone queen!!! I would love for mine to read that high, just for the satisfaction of seeing it. I seem to be doing fine on lower readings but would like the higher ones. Maybe if I ever get back to logging my foods, and get my percentages more in line, I will see higher readings. But, I am losing fine and BS excellent so that is enough for now.

My last 3 days readings, after getting back off the cottage cheese have been 0.3, then 0.4 and this AM 0.5. I am still eating some peanuts each day though, got them as a gift and they are just wonderful roasted peanuts. It will be good when they are gone!
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Old 12-23-2012, 08:21 AM   #335
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Originally Posted by goolash View Post
something that i can't understand...is if the goal is to burn my body fat, and i have a lot of it...why am i increasing my dietary fat so much..it seems like any energy would just come from that..not what i have stored...logically of course.

Phinney says if you follow the range of protein intake that they define based on height... and keep carbs down and eat enough healthy fats that you're satiated..the more you reduce fat calories IN (to a degree) the more effective your weight loss will be
So the deal as I understand it is that humans have 2 major "methods" for generating metabolic energy. One involves burning fat, the other carbs. My impression is that throughout most of their prehistory, humans frequently nearly starved to death. So the ability to pile on fat, to help survive through the 'lean times' is a very positive adaptive trait.

Further, I would guess, prehistoric humans probably used both methods -- fat burning and carb burning frequently. However, for whatever reason, the presence of carbs seems to strongly stimulate storage of fat, and restrict the burning of fat.

Then came the advent of agriculture that allowed us to vastly increase our consumption of carbohydrates, followed much more recently by technical innovations that make obtaining food extremely easy in 1st world countries. As a result of these the vast majority of the population spends little time in fat burning mode. Kind of an unforeseen circumstance, metabolically speaking. For most, this has a variety of untoward metabolic effects, morbid obesity being one of them.

To me, the most important part would be to get develop the ability to enter into and remain in ketosis. To the extent I had the emotional resources, I would focus on that for the first several months, rather than losing weight. Because however long it does take you to lose the weight, that is only the first step. All the studies I have seen that look at any kind of WOE show that it is maintaining the loss long term that is the hard part.

This is especially the case because other common WOEs have unfortunately turned to caloric restriction alone and even low fat diets. One thing about a low carb diet-- it tends to preserve lean body mass. So this focus on stepping on a scale to assess how well one is doing does have an unfortunate effect -- from a scale-eye view, losing a pound of muscle looks just as good a losing a pound of fat. Sadly most of the cheap ways of measuring fat % are terrible. Whereas scales really do measure your weight fairly accurately.

Anyway, I don't want to diminish the emotional aspect here. The motivation to continue has to come from somewhere. The more you are being bent out of your comfort zone, the more motivation you will need. NK to me is partially about finding a new comfort zone, one that does not take an enormous amount of emotional resources to maintain. And for most people that will take time.

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Old 12-23-2012, 09:03 AM   #336
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I would add that in order to stay in ketosis it is necessary to be a 'fat burner'. Once you have achieved that (ketosis), the challenge is to stay a fat burner.

As Phinney and Volek describe, that is done by low carb (less than 50g), adequate protein (individually determined) and the rest fat. If weight loss is not happening at all, then the idea is to lower fat so the body is accessing it's stores. It is this accessing of fat stores that can be problematic for some and I believe (my own personal opinion not backed up by science) that the reasons for this are varied and have to do with insulin resistance and perhaps leptin to name a few.

It appears that it will take some time on a well formulated diet to get to the body fat burning stage for many people and for some it happens pretty quickly.

Problems beyond nutrition can be very difficult to pin point and a doctor who is well versed in low carb nutrition would be extremely helpful. I do not have access to such a doctor and have had to limp along and learn as much as I can (so much from people here on lcf).

In the meantime, I love the way I eat and I feel great. My lipid panels are fabulous and I have gone from high b.p. to low normal (no more meds). These things tell me that my body is making adjustments and perhaps healing my metabolism.
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Old 12-23-2012, 09:04 AM   #337
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goolash View Post
something that i can't understand...is if the goal is to burn my body fat, and i have a lot of it...why am i increasing my dietary fat so much..it seems like any energy would just come from that..not what i have stored...logically of course.

Phinney says if you follow the range of protein intake that they define based on height... and keep carbs down and eat enough healthy fats that you're satiated..the more you reduce fat calories IN (to a degree) the more effective your weight loss will be
This is correct. The reason that I don't think that % based eating is truly NK (and neither do the the Performance or Living books) is because some of your daily caloric needs should be coming from body fat when you're losing. The NK method (as far as I can tell from what I've read) is to get the correct absolute gram numbers of protein and carbs (for you--this can take some experimentation) and then the rest of your calories are fat. If you are trying to lose then your fat intake will be lower than someone who is trying to maintain. Some people have a harder time accessing their body fat stores and so may need to "prime the pump" with dietary fat until their body makes the transition to fat burning (usually around 2 weeks). At that point the metabolic pathways for fat burning are working and then you lower fat until you start losing weight. Once you have established ketosis protein and carbs stay the same, fat is the macro that reduce to lose.

If you're eating a high calorie diet based on % you can easily eat too much protein and carbs to get into ketosis and too many actual calories to lose.
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Old 12-23-2012, 09:18 AM   #338
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that's what im trying next. It makes sense to see readings of .3 because i know im not a sugar burner anymore since i've been doing low carb for real since June 25th. It also makes sense that i'm not losing weight because im eating too much fat, and increasing it by trying NK has done nothing for me. It's definitely not a calorie thing for me, and i have A LOT to lose, so next experiment, reduce the fat!

Last edited by Myles; 12-23-2012 at 09:20 AM..
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Old 12-23-2012, 09:41 AM   #339
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goolash View Post
that's what im trying next. It makes sense to see readings of .3 because i know im not a sugar burner anymore since i've been doing low carb for real since June 25th. It also makes sense that i'm not losing weight because im eating too much fat, and increasing it by trying NK has done nothing for me. It's definitely not a calorie thing for me, and i have A LOT to lose, so next experiment, reduce the fat!
Hmmm, your protein and carb intake dictate your ketosis as too much of these can keep you a sugar-burner even though you are eating low carb. As we've discussed before, you may need to lower one or both of these in order to get into ketosis. This along with lowering your fat will help you to lose.

Here's where it gets tricky. Many of us who have low-carbed for a long time really need to get pretty low on protein in order to be in ketosis. Protein is partially converted to glucose so you can be a sugar burner even with low carbs if your protein is high enough. Some people can eat the recommended amount of protein and stay in ketosis . Others will really need to dial down their protein in order to get into ketosis. I say this from experience as a long-term low-carber who had to really reduce protein to get into ketosis. My body is amazingly good at converting protein to glucose. I have to stay on the very low end of the Performance range to lose and stay in ketosis. Some people have to go even lower than that range.
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Old 12-23-2012, 10:27 AM   #340
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Hey, guys I am reading Lyle MacDonald's book now. (google "the ketogenic diet" pdf to find it). He points out that after 3 weeks in ketosis most tissues will no longer burn ketones, sparing them for the brain, and instead have switched to burning 'free fatty acids' FFAs. This is the desired metabolic state because your brain has plenty of fuel and you are burning up you adipose tissue reserves (and/or dietary fat.)

Refs:
Mitchell GA et. al. Medical aspects of ketone body metabolism. Clinical & Investigative Medicine (1995) 18: 193-216.

Robinson AM and Williamson DH. Physiological roles of ketone bodies as substrates and signals in mammalian tissues. Physiol Rev (1980) 60: 143-187.

But the counter point to this, would be during the three week period, almost all your tissues will greedily burn ketones. Under which situation, your blood ketones will probably read pretty low. Also 'three weeks' is unlikely to be written in stone. Some people likely would require less time to adapt, some more.

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Old 12-23-2012, 10:39 AM   #341
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Goolash, I seem to remember you had fairly high fasting glucose, correct?

I think, for me, the high fbg is a sign that I am over producing glucose through gluconeogenesis from excess protein intake. I have been on very low carb for years (and have high fbg), but have not had protein low enough to encourage the fat burning process. I have to drop protein to 70g and carbs under 20 net and INCREASE the fat to get to the blood ketone levels for NK. Once I do that, the blood glucose goes down to under 90 and the blood ketones go up, and I will then drop the fat intake so my body can start using MY fat instead of dietary fat.

I truly believe if you are not diabetic and have high fbg, you are using protein for glucose production. I did a little test a year ago and did some higher carb eating and my fasting glucose went DOWN when carbs were added back to my diet. That tells me I was, for sure, making glucose from protein.

There is some data out there about physiological insulin resistance causing higher blood glucose, I think it is right to a point, but MY bg was too high.
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Old 12-23-2012, 10:43 AM   #342
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Goolash, I seem to remember you had fairly high fasting glucose, correct?

I think, for me, the high fbg is a sign that I am over producing glucose through gluconeogenesis from excess protein intake. I have been on very low carb for years (and have high fbg), but have not had protein low enough to encourage the fat burning process. I have to drop protein to 70g and carbs under 20 net and INCREASE the fat to get to the blood ketone levels for NK. Once I do that, the blood glucose goes down to under 90 and the blood ketones go up, and I will then drop the fat intake so my body can start using MY fat instead of dietary fat.

I truly believe if you are not diabetic and have high fbg, you are using protein for glucose production. I did a little test a year ago and did some higher carb eating and my fasting glucose went DOWN when carbs were added back to my diet. That tells me I was, for sure, making glucose from protein.

There is some data out there about physiological insulin resistance causing higher blood glucose, I think it is right to a point, but MY bg was too high.
drj....this would describe me and my experience perfectly as well.
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Old 12-23-2012, 12:44 PM   #343
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My BK was 2.4 mM this morning. Yesterday I did a 2.5 hour workout that my HRM told me consumed 1500 Cal. (Probably wrong.)

Thursday and Friday I had a (relatively) high carb lunch -- an "Asian Chicken Salad". I had them hold the noodles, so nothing overtly carby, nevertheless enough to drop my BK levels substantially for a day. Not out of ketosis, but lower. Interesting to me.

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Old 12-23-2012, 01:18 PM   #344
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There is a blog called "Mostly Meat Is What I Eat" also discussing the fuel our body burns and the "too much protein" conversation, the going forward to exercising in a ketogenic state.
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Old 12-23-2012, 01:26 PM   #345
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Goolash, I seem to remember you had fairly high fasting glucose, correct?

I think, for me, the high fbg is a sign that I am over producing glucose through gluconeogenesis from excess protein intake. I have been on very low carb for years (and have high fbg), but have not had protein low enough to encourage the fat burning process. I have to drop protein to 70g and carbs under 20 net and INCREASE the fat to get to the blood ketone levels for NK. Once I do that, the blood glucose goes down to under 90 and the blood ketones go up, and I will then drop the fat intake so my body can start using MY fat instead of dietary fat.

I truly believe if you are not diabetic and have high fbg, you are using protein for glucose production. I did a little test a year ago and did some higher carb eating and my fasting glucose went DOWN when carbs were added back to my diet. That tells me I was, for sure, making glucose from protein.

There is some data out there about physiological insulin resistance causing higher blood glucose, I think it is right to a point, but MY bg was too high.
My FBG from memory was typically around 4.5 - 6 mmol/l - that's 81 - 108 - i have it stored in my meter from when i was doing it. I am not sure what quantifies as "high" for a LC WOE - i've never seen any guidelines of what it "should" be - any resources?

However, according to Phinney, if one stays in their recommended protein range based on height.... it's eating less dietary fat that encourages the body fat to be utilized for fuel. For someone as overweight as i am, this makes sense;use the stored fat by restricting the dietary fat somewhat...then as one loses the fat from their body..they increase the dietary fat... He even mentions eating more fat at first just to kick start it... Is that what you mean? How long did it take you?

From Phinney: "When burning your own body fat, it looks like it’s a high protein diet. But the scales go down because the body’s burning it’s own fat stores. But if that persons loses weight and decides to stay on low-carb as a maintenance diet, in order to become weight stable, they need to eat a considerable amount of fat now, in other words, they need to increase their fat intake, which should work fine, because by now, their body should be very efficient at burning fat."

Also From Phiney: " Let’s describe an athlete about 6 feet tall and pretty muscular.

So his reference weight would be 80 kilograms, plus or minus a few. We recommend that on a low carbohydrate diet, people get 1.5 of protein per kilogram of body weight. So that would be 120 grams of protein. That’s the low end. And it can go to 2 grams per kilo, or 160 grams of protein per day. Now, a 14-ounce steak–each ounce of prepared steak has around 7 grams of protein, so it is just a bit shy of 100 grams of protein. If a person’s intake should be between 120 and 150, that steak represents more than half of their daily protein needs. So if the person had two eggs and 2 strips of bacon for breakfast, which would be about 25 grams of protein, and some tuna with celery and lettuce for lunch and then the steak for dinner, that might be about right for total protein. So that would be tolerable, as long as the person didn’t feel deprived by waiting for the high amount of protein in their evening meal."

Last edited by Myles; 12-23-2012 at 01:35 PM..
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Old 12-23-2012, 03:06 PM   #346
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0.7 tonight, had cauliflower cheese with flour, been logging all my food with an app, which I'm not allowed to mention. The only downside to this forum, had less protein today to make up for flour, in my head , blood sugar was 6.6 two hours after, good night
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Old 12-24-2012, 08:52 AM   #347
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Good morning everyone. BK this a.m was at 1.2- really happy with this considering my carbs are closer to 30g total lately- plus I am intentionally upping my protein and lowering my fat. I am still too nervous to step on a scale, maybe in a day or two...

Hope everyone is doing well!
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Old 12-24-2012, 08:58 AM   #348
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Hi everyone! I hope everyone is enjoying family and friends in preparation for Christmas if you celebrate it. DH and I have a very complicated relationship with Christmas and the winter holidays so it's nice to have this time together without pressure and expectations. We'll see my son for a bit tomorrow (he's with his dad right now), smoke a turkey and watch The Lord of the Rings.

I am not testing over my relaxation weekend, but I did have a little bit of time to check in this morning before heading off to breakfast and The Hobbit with DH and friends. LOL--I guess this time of the year is best spent in middle earth for us.

Happy holidays everyone!
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Old 12-24-2012, 08:59 AM   #349
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Good morning everyone. BK this a.m was at 1.2- really happy with this considering my carbs are closer to 30g total lately- plus I am intentionally upping my protein and lowering my fat. I am still too nervous to step on a scale, maybe in a day or two...

Hope everyone is doing well!
Awesome Sophie! Concentrating on getting your diet dialed in without the scale getting in the way is great. It's been weird to not get on the scale for the past few days, but also very freeing.
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Old 12-24-2012, 09:25 AM   #350
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Hi everyone! I hope everyone is enjoying family and friends in preparation for Christmas if you celebrate it. DH and I have a very complicated relationship with Christmas and the winter holidays so it's nice to have this time together without pressure and expectations. We'll see my son for a bit tomorrow (he's with his dad right now), smoke a turkey and watch The Lord of the Rings.

I am not testing over my relaxation weekend, but I did have a little bit of time to check in this morning before heading off to breakfast and The Hobbit with DH and friends. LOL--I guess this time of the year is best spent in middle earth for us.

Happy holidays everyone!
HA HA! You are not alone....
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Old 12-24-2012, 10:29 AM   #351
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Morning everyone.
Very interesting posts coming along. All helps me to understand this WOE more and more.

My BK were 0.8 this morning so I am back in the zone. No peanuts yesterday which probably helped.

Hope everyone enjoys your holiday in whatever way you celebrate it.
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Old 12-24-2012, 12:25 PM   #352
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Happy Holidays everyone! I'm wishing for good things for all of us and a safe and happy new year

Who knows, maybe I can come up with the $$$ to do the NK testing in 2013!
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Old 12-24-2012, 03:52 PM   #353
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Old 12-25-2012, 07:25 AM   #354
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Merry Christmas everyone. Cold and rainy here in Dallas, not very Christmas like but good to get the rain. But, supposed to turn to snow and ice this afternoon which will not be good for the bridges and overpasses. Sounds a lot worse in Oklahoma, sure hope people are super cautious on the roads.

Santa brought me a new low of 184.6.

My ketones were back down to 0.4. I ate quite a few of those peanuts again last night, have to get rid of those, they seem to be bringing my ketones down. Maybe it was that and not the cottage cheese, will experiment more. I didn't have any peanuts the night before last and ketone reading went back up so def the peanuts are not good, and I am eating too many of course. Usually can leave them alone but wow, these are good ones.
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Old 12-25-2012, 09:15 AM   #355
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Merry Christmas!!

Quick update in between activities today. My ketone readings have been great for the past few days, including this morning (1.2)...even after my "holiday treat" of 4 (!!) squares of 70% dark chocolate yesterday evening. But no more of that today - too afraid of the consequences.

Also, Santa brought me a one pound whoosh this morning, down to 143. Wouldn't it be great if I could finally drop to 140 by new year's??

Hope everyone has a wonderful day!
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Old 12-25-2012, 10:59 AM   #356
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Lindsay, Santa was good to both of us!!! Very unlike many years when by the time Christmas got here, I was feeling very fat and unjolly about it.
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Old 12-25-2012, 12:00 PM   #357
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Originally Posted by Buffy45 View Post

Santa brought me a new low of 184.6.

My ketones were back down to 0.4. I ate quite a few of those peanuts again last night, have to get rid of those, they seem to be bringing my ketones down. Maybe it was that and not the cottage cheese, will experiment more. I didn't have any peanuts the night before last and ketone reading went back up so def the peanuts are not good, and I am eating too many of course. Usually can leave them alone but wow, these are good ones.
Isn't it great to lose even through the holidays! I guess you should be careful with the peanuts, but at least they aren't getting in the way of your weight loss.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UnstrungHarp View Post
Merry Christmas!!

Quick update in between activities today. My ketone readings have been great for the past few days, including this morning (1.2)...even after my "holiday treat" of 4 (!!) squares of 70% dark chocolate yesterday evening. But no more of that today - too afraid of the consequences.

Also, Santa brought me a one pound whoosh this morning, down to 143. Wouldn't it be great if I could finally drop to 140 by new year's??

Hope everyone has a wonderful day!
Lindsay! Woo hoo!

We're back home this morning. I had a great time and I am now super relaxed sitting in front of the fire. I got a chance to skype with my oldest son who is by himself in Germany eating pre-packaged food in his friend's empty apartment. He seemed in good spirits and I'll be so happy to see him in less than a week!

I did get on the scale when we got home and I saw a pretty low number. When we were downtown we were only eating two meals a day. Usually I feel terrible when I IF, but since I was away from my normal routine it felt okay. Not really looking to lose, but going into next week on the low side wouldn't be terrible. I'll get on the scale tomorrow morning and see if the number holds. I think I stayed in ketosis while we were away, today will probably be a higher protein day so we'll see how the ketone reading is tomorrow.
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Old 12-25-2012, 01:35 PM   #358
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I got on the scales and I am where I have been the last two weeks - 1.5 pounds above my lowest low. Can't say I'm sad about it - I'm sure I've never had this much good food and kept my same weight.

So happy for you "losers" Buffy & Lindsay!! Kristn it sounds like your holiday plan worked out very well.

We have been to two family Christmas celebrations and in 1.5 hours will attend our third. I will be able to concentrate more on myself and my meal planning after today, although I've enjoyed a mouthful of off-plan treats just for today. I don't feel awful and I'll be happy to start again tomorrow with the foods I know are really good for me.

Hope your day is peaceful.
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Old 12-25-2012, 04:24 PM   #359
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Just left DDs house and did just ok, ate a little more than I had planned but kept the eating confined to one hour. Seemed strange to eat those carby foods
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Old 12-26-2012, 04:01 AM   #360
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Had Raclette for xmas dinner last night at my sisters, even tho don't celebrate xmas. Also had a big piece of cake!

This morning my blood ketones were .2 - i have a question.

I haven't read the performance book yet, i'm still only on the living book - what do blood ketones under .5 but still getting a reading not "LOW" on the meter actually mean? I know i'm in ketosis and have been since june, but clearly im not in "NUtritional ketosis" - so what do readings under .5 but about 0 actually mean?
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