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Old 12-07-2012, 09:33 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by reddarin View Post
You were full time LC while training and performing in the Iron Man? No carb loading days or anything like that?
No. My dietary regime was very constant. Two servings of plain oatmeal for breakfast. Lunch and dinner were grilled chicken, steamed rice and beans. I did that every day for about two years. I lost the weight in the first year and trained for Ironman in the second year.

I did not carb load, but I did supplement with plenty of gels which are nothing but a mixture of maltodextrin (glucose polysaccharides) and some electrolytes. I have been off of recreational sugar since may 5, 2010 and off of wheat since August 18, 2010.

My stomach shut down on the bike portion of the IM race and, at the end of the bike, I was totally glycogen depleted. That is a miserably feeling. It took about 2 hours and 8 miles on the marathon to get sugar back into my system and my BG levels up so I could start running. I was lucky to even finish. In race nutrition is a BIG part of Ironman racing because you can't store enough glycogen to finish the race on glucose power. I am experimenting to see if becoming ketoadapted significantly effects the fuel partitioning in favor of fat during the race. Most all of the Ironman training is geared towards making you more efficient at burning fat. Obviously, when I read Phinney's performance book I was intrigued by the potential.
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Old 12-07-2012, 09:57 AM   #32
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Once the glycogen is gone what is a body to do?
You come to a stop, literally. When your BG levels drop, you can pass out (I actually blacked out for a few seconds in the second transition area). Your body can make more glucose from protein and triglycerides, but that takes time. When your BG levels stabilize, you can basically walk, that's it. You have to ingest glucose and give it time to get in your blood before you can run again.[/QUOTE]

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Does that imply that training like that while becoming adapted forces faster keto-adaptation??? Seems so. Of course, you were already LC though you didn't mention your use of carbs while training for and doing the IM competition.
Like I said in my other post, I was not LC at the time. However, I always train in a fasting state. All of my training takes place early in the morning before breakfast. That did not, apparently, effect the time needed for keto-adaptation. It still took two weeks which is on the low side of what Phinney predicted it would take. A lot of training nutrition is geared towards restoring glycogen stores as quickly as possible. Therefore, you rarely ever suffer glycogen depletion in training. My hope is that keto-adaptation will cause my body to spare glycogemn at all costs (which Phinney's research apparently shows) which would require or at least promote a repositioning of the ratios in fuel partitioning at a given effort. That last sentence is the magic bullet (or the rub).

At any given point in time, whether keto-adapted or not, we are burning a combination of glucose and fat. The lower the intensity of activity, the greater the proportion of our fuel needs are met by fat. As we move faster, our bodies start to burn more and more glucose to keep up. The prevailing wisdom in the sports nutrition circles is that there is a limit to how fast you can go on fat. Everything else must be glucose.

Assume, when I an not in NK, I burn 50% fat and 50% glucose while running at 7 mph. Now assume I enter NK and am keto-adapted. Does the fuel partitioning change? If I can now run at 7 mph and burn 90% fat, then that is a HUGE issue and a HUGE advantage. That means someone would need MUCH less supplemental nutrition for any given endurance activity, if any at all. However, if at 7 mph I am still burning 50-50 fat and glucose (ie, I can only go so fast on fat), then all I have accomplished is to pre-depleat my precious glycogen stores by going into NK. That would be no good.

I am trying to find the answer to these questions.
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Old 12-09-2012, 12:11 PM   #33
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OK, so I just finished the Dallas Marathon. Let me just say that 26 miles is really too far to run. Anyway, I finished in 4:08 which is a little disappointing for me. I wanted to be sub 4:00 but I don't think I had any more left in me.

My fuel source was not a limiting factor on this run. Neither was my cardio fitness. My poor legs, especially my quads, just couldn't keep up the pace. I had to will them to keep running after about mile 22. There is a long uphill portion that ends just past mile 21 and it really sapped all the strength left in my legs.

I checked my BK levels when I got him, just out of curiosity. I was right at 2.0. I ate two servings of oatmeal for breakfast, 6 100kcal gels (basically pure glucose) during the course of the race, and two bananas and an orange after.

Now I need a nap.
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Old 12-09-2012, 12:49 PM   #34
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Hey there. I don't see any of that on the approved NK food list

You are doing net carbs and not counting immediately burned carbs?

Not bad anyway since you were only 10 or 15 minutes away from not-disappointing, no?

Seems like I read that post-exercise ketone levels would be elevated.

Brother, it does not look like a valid test of NK and performance because of the dramatically non-NK food.
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Old 12-10-2012, 09:06 AM   #35
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Brother, it does not look like a valid test of NK and performance because of the dramatically non-NK food.
Agreed. There was no time to do any serious training in NK since I started this WOE 3 weeks before the race. Rule #1 in endurance sports is don't do anything on race day you have done in training, so a LONG run with no glucose replacement to slow down glycogen depletion was definitely not worth the risk.

That said, I did finish my training in NK with no "non-NK food." However, it is worth pointing out that glucose is not a "non-NK food." The point here is not to eliminate glucose ingestion altogether, but limit it to the point of inducing and maintaining NK. I guarantee you that the 250g of glucose I sucked down during the race did NOT drive me out of NK. In fact, I doubt the oatmeal I had for breakfast (75g) did either given the short time between ingestion and starting the endurance exercise (3 hours).

Only future training will give an idea what kind of limits can be placed on glucose intake during endurance exercise. No matter what you do, you are always burning a combination of glucose and fat. The point of NK is to move the curve so very little glucose is used or needed. The higher the rate of output, the higher the percentage of glucose needed. Accordingly, you still have a limited fuel tank of glucose and if you are going to go long enough and hard enough you can certainly run dry. The question is how long is too long and how hard is too hard and only training will answer those questions.

BTW, I searched and searched and found almost no information on the net about how to manage race day nutrition in NK. The performance book doesn't touch the subject and Phinney is not accessible as far as I can tell. I may just have to figure that one out for myself.
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Old 12-10-2012, 09:16 AM   #36
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Agreed. There was no time to do any serious training in NK since I started this WOE 3 weeks before the race. Rule #1 in endurance sports is don't do anything on race day you have done in training, so a LONG run with no glucose replacement to slow down glycogen depletion was definitely not worth the risk.

That said, I did finish my training in NK with no "non-NK food." However, it is worth pointing out that glucose is not a "non-NK food." The point here is not to eliminate glucose ingestion altogether, but limit it to the point of inducing and maintaining NK. I guarantee you that the 250g of glucose I sucked down during the race did NOT drive me out of NK. In fact, I doubt the oatmeal I had for breakfast (75g) did either given the short time between ingestion and starting the endurance exercise (3 hours).

Only future training will give an idea what kind of limits can be placed on glucose intake during endurance exercise. No matter what you do, you are always burning a combination of glucose and fat. The point of NK is to move the curve so very little glucose is used or needed. The higher the rate of output, the higher the percentage of glucose needed. Accordingly, you still have a limited fuel tank of glucose and if you are going to go long enough and hard enough you can certainly run dry. The question is how long is too long and how hard is too hard and only training will answer those questions.

BTW, I searched and searched and found almost no information on the net about how to manage race day nutrition in NK. The performance book doesn't touch the subject and Phinney is not accessible as far as I can tell. I may just have to figure that one out for myself.
Really? The Performance book covers glucose supplementation?? It endorses it??

I do not doubt what you are saying about the impact of it. I am just surprised that it is apparently in the book and endorsed by the book.

You might try emailing Jimmy Moore with your question and ask him if he can point you to the answer or if he can tell you how to get in touch with Phinney or Volek. I get the impression that Volek is the one that is more exercise focused of the two.
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Old 12-10-2012, 12:12 PM   #37
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Really? The Performance book covers glucose supplementation?? It endorses it??

I do not doubt what you are saying about the impact of it. I am just surprised that it is apparently in the book and endorsed by the book.
The book clearly endorses the use of Generation UCAN super starch which is a high molecular weight starch (read glucose polysaccharides here). However, there is NO discussion in the book or anywhere else that I can find as to race day strategies for periods of exertion that will otherwise deplete all your stored glycogen. Gluconeogenisis cannot keep pace with aerobic exertion and in the absence of dietary protein will be using your own muscle for fuel.
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Old 12-10-2012, 04:10 PM   #38
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The way I understand it is that stored glycogen is not useful for endurance and being fat adapted means not having to depend on glucose for fuel. The ideal is to use fat rather than glucose.
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Old 12-10-2012, 04:52 PM   #39
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[quote=clackley;16128949]The way I understand it is that stored glycogen is not useful for endurance and being fat adapted means not having to depend on glucose for fuel. The ideal is to use fat rather than glucose.[/quote


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Old 12-10-2012, 05:01 PM   #40
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As you are immersed into the LC environment, you learn the carb impact of the various "net carb" varieties. Sugar alcohols are all depend on What THEY ARE. MALTITOL IS DIFFERENT THAN ERYTHRITOL.

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Old 12-10-2012, 06:32 PM   #41
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The way I understand it is that stored glycogen is not useful for endurance
Not true.

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being fat adapted means not having to depend on glucose for fuel. The ideal is to use fat rather than glucose.
Also not true.

Some cells in your body will ONlY function on glucose. They will all function on glucose. Some will function on tryglserides. Some will function on ketones.

The purpose, for an endurance athlete, to train and race in NK is fuel partitioning. This is a concept covered at length in the performance book and not all all in the lifestyle book. At any given exercise intensity, my muscles are burning a combination of glucose and fat. The glucose is either from stored muscle glycogen or from stored liver glycogen. The higher the intensity of exercise, the greater percentage of glycogen being burned in my muscles. NK potentially does two things (1) it may move the curve on fuel partitioning so at a given intensity the percentage fat burned will be greater and (2) ketosis--adapting your brain may allow it to continue to function in the face of total glycogen depletion and the correlating drop in BG levels.

For endurance sports, the sparring of glycogen is somewhat of a Holy Grail. However, maintaing high output is also a Holy Grail. No one wants to spare glycogen at the expense of going slow. Most race day endurance nutrition/planning is geared to using up the limited glycogen supply as slow as possible so you can finish the race with some but not much left in that tank.

None of this has anything to do with weight loss per see. As I understand it, NK aids in weight loss by avoiding the problem of insulin sensitivity and the propensity of certain people to prefer to store cards and also to store fat when eaten with carbs.
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Old 12-11-2012, 07:39 AM   #42
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The book clearly endorses the use of Generation UCAN super starch which is a high molecular weight starch (read glucose polysaccharides here). However, there is NO discussion in the book or anywhere else that I can find as to race day strategies for periods of exertion that will otherwise deplete all your stored glycogen. Gluconeogenisis cannot keep pace with aerobic exertion and in the absence of dietary protein will be using your own muscle for fuel.
From what I've heard and read I got the impression that there was no need for supplements along the way during, say, a marathon. Perhaps the way it was phrased was more regarding bonking or hitting the wall and strategies to proactively prevent it that are much more relaxed for a keto-adapted person. Hmmm. I'll pay more attention when I hear that part again on whatever podcast it was.
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Old 12-11-2012, 08:04 AM   #43
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Not true.



Also not true.

Some cells in your body will ONlY function on glucose. They will all function on glucose. Some will function on tryglserides. Some will function on ketones.

The purpose, for an endurance athlete, to train and race in NK is fuel partitioning. This is a concept covered at length in the performance book and not all all in the lifestyle book. At any given exercise intensity, my muscles are burning a combination of glucose and fat. The glucose is either from stored muscle glycogen or from stored liver glycogen. The higher the intensity of exercise, the greater percentage of glycogen being burned in my muscles. NK potentially does two things (1) it may move the curve on fuel partitioning so at a given intensity the percentage fat burned will be greater and (2) ketosis--adapting your brain may allow it to continue to function in the face of total glycogen depletion and the correlating drop in BG levels.

For endurance sports, the sparring of glycogen is somewhat of a Holy Grail. However, maintaing high output is also a Holy Grail. No one wants to spare glycogen at the expense of going slow. Most race day endurance nutrition/planning is geared to using up the limited glycogen supply as slow as possible so you can finish the race with some but not much left in that tank.

None of this has anything to do with weight loss per see. As I understand it, NK aids in weight loss by avoiding the problem of insulin sensitivity and the propensity of certain people to prefer to store cards and also to store fat when eaten with carbs.
According to Phinney and Volek`s `living`book, what I said is true. I have not read the performance book.

The notion that carbs are necessary for athletic performance is exactly what they are saying is not true when one is fully keto adapted. That means that fat burning is the objective and not to depend on quickly and easily depleted glucose.

Last edited by clackley; 12-11-2012 at 08:05 AM..
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